Eliminating Middle School Wrestlers from High School teams

[Wky 25]

I'd say deserves is the wrong word choice . The few kids that are in middle school competing at the high school level work hard most of the yr and earn that right .

[trithis 34]

I'd say deserves is the wrong word choice . The few kids that are in middle school competing at the high school level work hard most of the yr and earn that right .

That was my point. It is the correct word if you read it in the context of what I said. I am for MS kids wrestling in HS.

[pinthis 0]

I don't have a problem with 8th graders wrestling varsity, but should a middle school kid that's wrestling HS varsity also be allowed to wrestle in middle school matches? Or at middle school state?

Jefferson County has some sort of an agreement between the schools that they won't allow middle school kids to compete at any varsity level sport. It started a year or two ago and has been challenged in court, and I believe has been allowed in some cases. The Catholic high schools and duPont Manual don't allow it, period.

[trithis 34]

This would be a personal decision between the kids, parents and coaches of the teams HS and MS since they two assoc's are not affiliated. If the kid is a major stud (ex. Mark Hall) and is good enough to win the state tourney...me personally, I think my decision would be to keep that kid from wrestling MS all together as did the Hall's when he wrestled in KY. The same is said for the youth kids...if you are good enough to win or place in the MS tourney, why wrestle youth? I don't think they have anything to prove at that point on the lower level. However, if your kid is not a Mark Hall, I am absolutely for kids wrestling as often as they can. Why limit the mat time of a kid just because he/she is in MS? I don't think I saw any middle school kid completely dominate their weight class this year at the MS State tourney.

[Givemethatdouble 6]

And there is a big different between wrestling and other sports when it comes safety o the kids since there is weight classes.

[FalconWrestling 147]

We had a middle schooler wrestle heavyweight for us this year because he was by far the most talented heavyweight in the room. He made it through the year just fine. Most people from out of state you talk to consider it a plus of Kentucky wrestling that we allow middle schoolers to wrestle.

[DBW 1]

I know of at least one high school that does not have a middle school team feeding it. So middle school kids that want to wrestle work out with the high school. If they are good enough, or if a weight class is open, they get some varsity experience. If this school did not allow middle schoolers to wrestle, the team would dry up pretty quick. If allowing young guys in the room and on the mats keeps wrestling in a school, I am all for it.

[CoachK 2]

They are trying to start a middle school sports program just as the high schools have. They have football, basketball track and field and a few others. so they are trying to expand them all now to make it a full competitive area. Of course the hard part right now is financial, as other programs and services are being cut because funding is being cut.I believe there are only 3 schools in Jeff Co that can because the middle school and the high school are in one school. Moore, Brown and one other, cant think of it right off.

Does anyone know why its not allowed in Jefferson Co.? Seems to put those kids at a disadvantage, they are not even allowed to scrimmage against the high schoolers during the regular season.

[eville dad 17]

I think the Jefferson County rule was more geared at other sports where coaches were sitting HS aged kids to give up and coming MS kids more playing time to benefit the team down the road. The example I'm thinking of is girls softball, I know of one instance where SR's were made to sit to play MS kids to try and develop their talent, the team was terrible all year long.

I have never supported MS wrestling HS and I know some will scream about this comment but IMO it makes it to easy to give up on getting the HS kids to participate. The state needs more HS kids participating in sports to benefit from the acitivities. Its not just about how good the kids are but what the kids get out of the participation of the sport. Instead of allowing MS kids, recruit harder for HS kids. Give them reason to play such as academic credts the same as gym and instead of gym class, to participate in a sport.

[dagger 7]

I think it should be left up to each individual school system. They are the only one that knows the effect of stopping middle schoolers from wrestling on there high school team would have on there program.

The other factor that comes into play is the coaching staff. Do you have enough coaches to run both programs if they can't practice together and do you have to find a practice facility MS or would they have to practice after the high school team. Just a thought.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Dagger I think you hit the nail on the head. Many smaller wrestling schools that can't field a team relly on middle school. Not just because they want to field a varsity high school team but because they don't have the coaches and can't be in two places at once.

If you only have one coach and a handfull of kids on the wrestling team (both middle school and high school) you have to put them all on one team and try to compete somewhere.

[tiltfor3 20]

There was a gentleman's agreement among the HS coaches that if a MS wrestler competed at the varsity level in high school, that wrestler would not wrestle at the MS state tournament. So much, for all the HS coaches being gentlemen.

[raider 7]

I have never supported MS wrestling HS and I know some will scream about this comment but IMO it makes it to easy to give up on getting the HS kids to participate. The state needs more HS kids participating in sports to benefit from the acitivities. Its not just about how good the kids are but what the kids get out of the participation of the sport. Instead of allowing MS kids, recruit harder for HS kids. Give them reason to play such as academic credts the same as gym and instead of gym class, to participate in a sport.

I'll say from the perspective of working with a program where participation numbers are outstanding, I couldn't dissagree more. We typically have between 60-100 youth wrestlers, 30 MS, and 35-45 HS wrestlers. We always allow wrestlers to wrestle up if they earn the right. Filling lineups with the most competitive teams possible builds competitiveness within the program and elevates the level of the whole team. With more success comes more numbers. And guys typically stick it out even if they don't make the lineup because JV/ Backup wrestlers are given the opportunity to compete. I believe our HS JV guys averaged about 30 matches this year.

The best recruiting that can be done in the hallways is done by the wrestlers themselves. And among the wrestlers, the standout wrestlers recruit the best. Giving younger kids the opportunity to wrestle up, brings more exposure for your team to his peers. And the younger you get kids out the better off you are.

Bottom line, If you want solid numbers, start a youth program and never place limitations on the level of success young kids can have.

[raider 7]

There was a gentleman's agreement among the HS coaches that if a MS wrestler competed at the varsity level in high school, that wrestler would not wrestle at the MS state tournament. So much, for all the HS coaches being gentlemen.

I guess none of them are. The only team I can think of that doesn't allow this is Meade County. And that's just because none of their wrestlers compete at the MS level. I'm sure there are some but after coaching at the MS level for 7 years, I can't think of one off the top of my head.

[bigedcoach 27]

I totally agree with you Radier, I hate the Jefferson Co way thought, When I was at Eastern, Its how we did build the program through our youth program, We were the first program in Jefferson County outside of KCD to use middle school kids in our lineups, I dont really have a problem with middle schoolers wrestling up, I know you have a couple of talented middle school kids in your line up. I just wonder why other states ban it. If I do come back to coaching, the first thing I will do is to start and recruit from the middle school that feeds what ever school I coach at. Its a sad thing that JCPS likes to hancuff the coaches in its county

[Ranger123 43]

I'll say from the perspective of working with a program where participation numbers are outstanding, I couldn't dissagree more. We typically have between 60-100 youth wrestlers, 30 MS, and 35-45 HS wrestlers. We always allow wrestlers to wrestle up if they earn the right. Filling lineups with the most competitive teams possible builds competitiveness within the program and elevates the level of the whole team. With more success comes more numbers. And guys typically stick it out even if they don't make the lineup because JV/ Backup wrestlers are given the opportunity to compete. I believe our HS JV guys averaged about 30 matches this year.

The best recruiting that can be done in the hallways is done by the wrestlers themselves. And among the wrestlers, the standout wrestlers recruit the best. Giving younger kids the opportunity to wrestle up, brings more exposure for your team to his peers. And the younger you get kids out the better off you are.

Bottom line, If you want solid numbers, start a youth program and never place limitations on the level of success young kids can have.

I will second that thought. Our program has a very similar approach, similar numbers, and is very successful.

[eville dad 17]

I will second that thought. Our program has a very similar approach, similar numbers, and is very successful.

Remember I said some would scream.

You both make solid arguments and I believe in time MS wrestlers in your programs HS ranks will diminish and be eliminated by a solid group of HS kids who have risen through the ranks and wont be displaced by MS kids outwrestling them. Lets face it the only reason 95% of MS kids are wrestling in HS are because the HS ranks are missing a weight class or because the HS kid has little to no experience and the MS kid has learned to wrestle already. I say the HS kid needs to learn to wrestle in HS more than the MS needs to be wrestling in HS. It shouldnt always be about the putting the best team on the mat at all cost.

[Wky 25]

I agree 100% with raider

[raider 7]

It's not at all about winning at all costs, or winning at all really. Its about improving participation. The more kids that we can get to participate, the more kids we can share the valuable life lessons that our sport uniquely teaches. Work ethic, dedication, perserverance, self worth, self motivation, goal setting, etc. To me this sport serves as a microcosm of real life. Kids can learn what works and what doesn't with low stakes. It deeply engrains a blue collar sensibility that is truely american.

It's easy to dismiss successful programs with claims that they are willing to sacrifice their ethics for their success. Or that they by chance are inherently more likely to succeed do to lucky coincidence. While certain socio-economic conditions do contribute, the programs at the top can generally thank a small group of dedicated leaders for their success.

All teams can be successful but it wont happen over night.

Ok, back off my soap box now.

[eville dad 17]

Raider,

I agree with some of your points and your programs as well as Ranger's are good programs, but I still question how the numbers are affected adversely or favorably by allowing MS to wrestle HS. The MS kids can still wrestle at their own level, if anything I would argue that programs would lose more HS kids who get beat by a MS wrestler and give up the sport.

Microcosm of real life? Sounds good but cmon give me a break, this is high school wrestling, its a sport not a life struggle, dont take it so serious. Regardless of everyone's own personal stance, KY is one if of the few if not the only state allowing MS kids to participate at the HS levels.

I will respectfully continue to agree to disagree.

[CoachJ 0]

I grew up in Minnesota where you can wrestle up and as an 8^th Grader I wrestled varsity at 103 (I actually had to eat to make weight with an 88 pound minimum). My parents were worried at first but I had been wrestling since 1^st grade so I actually had a lot more experience than most of the kids I wrestled. I didn’t have a great record because of my size but was able to hold my own. Because of this experience I will always side on the Middle School kids being allowed to wrestle up. Most of the best programs don’t need MS kids because they are 3-4 deep at most weight classes and great wrestlers often have very good wrestlers pushing them at practice and will take their spot if they slack off. Mark Hall is of course the exception rather than the norm. Kentucky however is nowhere close to a top notch wrestling state and anything Kentucky can do to keep the sport growing should be done. As Givemethatdouble pointed out that unlike football and Soccer weight classes keep things fair between a 7^th grader and a senior. I will also throw out that my wife is a Certified Athletic Trainer and said a MS kid doesn’t have any greater chance to get injured wrestling at the HS level. In fact A study published in the American Journal of Sports Medicine states:

The most commonly injured areas were the shoulder (24%) and knee (17%). Injured wrestlers were an average of 5 months older and had a 32% higher experience level than noninjured wrestlers. Wrestlers with ligamentous laxity suffered fewer shoulder injuries than the other wrestlers. The majority of injuries occurred in practice (63%), although the injury rate was higher in match competitions. Sixty-eight percent of practice injuries occurred during hard wrestling, 23% during drills, and 9% during conditioning. The most common wrestling situation resulting in injury was the takedown position (68%). Our results show that the older and more experienced wrestler may be at greater risk of injury. Hard wrestling during practice and the takedown position resulted in the highest occurrence of injury.

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/28/4/509.abstract

If they can earn the spot let them wrestle. If you can’t beat them work harder.

[raider 7]

Raider,

I agree with some of your points and your programs as well as Ranger's are good programs, but I still question how the numbers are affected adversely or favorably by allowing MS to wrestle HS. The MS kids can still wrestle at their own level, if anything I would argue that programs would lose more HS kids who get beat by a MS wrestler and give up the sport.

Microcosm of real life? Sounds good but cmonI give me a break, this is high school wrestling, its a sport not a life struggle, dont take it so serious. Regardless of everyone's own personal stance, KY is one if of the few if not the only state allowing MS kids to participate at the HS levels.

I will respectfully continue to agree to disagree.

You can disagree with my arguement regarding wrestling up but I'll anecdotally point to Ryle, Campbell County, Woodford Co., Larue, Union, Johnson Central, Ohldam, Simon Kenton who all allow MS kids to wrestle and all have great numbers.

As for wreatling being a microcosm of real life, you can scoff if you want. This sport teaches kids that you get out of life what you put into it. The fact that it's not a life struggle is exactly what I meant by low stakes. I don't know about you but the some of the lessons I learned in youth athletics are the ones I lean on as an adult. This is why I am so passionate about this sport.

[naplesme 58]

Then why does Indiana , Ohio, and other states not allow it or even Jefferson Co. in Ky

Indiana & Ohio have bigger programs and official middle school programs. Jefferson Co is just stupid. The last time a ban on middle school wrestling varsity happened, it almost killed wrestling in Western Kentucky. Since Middle School eligibility has returned, wrestling schools in Western Kentucky has grown from 6 teams to 14, with a possibility of 4 or 5 more in the next couple of years. Wrestling is not those other sports. Coaches are not sending 106 lb 7th grade wrestlers against 220 lb 12th graders. Both wrestlers weigh the same. Fort the most part the only ones complaining are those who are having trouble starting a MS program.

[sigep567 3]

My team is in Jefferson Co. and I have a middle school program feeding into the high school. I understand the middle school rule as not being as black and white as it has been made out to be. Last year the word was no middle schoolars can compete for Jefferson Co. schools. This year, I believe the final decision is placed in the high school principle's hands. I didn't lobby for any of my middle school kids to participate on my high school team this year becasue their skill levels weren't up to the varsity standards, but I believe the option was available.

If a middle school wrestler can beat one of my high school wrestlers and that makes the high school wrestler want to quit the team...I don't want him on my team anyway. If it makes everyone work harder I am all for it.

[DamonMBarnes 13]

Then why does Indiana , Ohio, and other states not allow it or even Jefferson Co. in Ky

Indiana & Ohio have bigger programs and official middle school programs. Jefferson Co is just stupid. The last time a ban on middle school wrestling varsity happened, it almost killed wrestling in Western Kentucky. Since Middle School eligibility has returned, wrestling schools in Western Kentucky has grown from 6 teams to 14, with a possibility of 4 or 5 more in the next couple of years. Wrestling is not those other sports. Coaches are not sending 106 lb 7th grade wrestlers against 220 lb 12th graders. Both wrestlers weigh the same. Fort the most part the only ones complaining are those who are having trouble starting a MS program.

If it almost killed wrestling in WKY I have to ask, how many middle schoolers on average started for the WKY teams this year?