Middle Schoolers banned from varsity for Jefferson Co Public Schools?

[tiltfor3 20]

I don't know. Are 7th graders competing with the quick recall, debate teams, or, in the marching bands? These are extra curricular activities that should be viewed the same has high school sports relative the school's mission.

[Has Been 11]

I wonder if JCPS have any students that have been moved up in grade some time in their elementary school years. 

It is hard for me to believe that JCPS does not have a few dozen students who are not of age for an average high school student.  meaning that they will graduate between the ages of 15-17.  When the average age is to graduate at 18.

If this is so then are not these students also being subjected to (and I quote from Mr. Vinegar) "Seventh-grade girls and boys are having different conversations than high school girls and boys"

I also pull this quote from the article. (Robert Vinegar is Wyman's assistant and coordinates athletics on the middle school level. He said social interaction is a main reason for keeping middle school athletes from competing on the high school level.)

If both of these quotes are true then why would they allow students in high school who are younger than average age Freshman?

Why? Because these students have shown an ability to do higher level work in the classroom.  Much like the 7th and 8th grade athletes have done in their respective sports.  (Double standard)

Also those kids who have academically moved up, are probably allowed to participate in high school sports, even though they should be 7th or 8th grade students.

Once again just the opinion of GOO

GOO out.

My question for JCPS is with all the shortage of funds for education and athletics programs; who is going to fund the middle school programs?  Where will the coaches come from, what court or fields will these teams play on?  Many middle school only have football and basketball.  Many middle schools don't have baseball or softball fields, tennis courts, swimming pools, wrestling mats and that primarily why they are at the high schools to begin with.

[eville dad 17]

What does this say about the quality of the high school programs if there have been so many opportunities for middle school kids?

I dont think this situation is a result of an over abundance of super talented MS kids. I thinks its more likely because HS kids are losing their interest in sports for various reasons and the MS kids are used to fill the void.

JCPS indicated this ruling would help build up MS programs, but it seems to me they really need to focus on quality HS programs. If the HS kids were interested enought to compete then this issue would resolve itself. They dont recognize that PHYS ED and TEAM SPORT are the same type of activity. Because of this they require kids to take PE even if they are participating in a sport. This creates a schedule for athletes that requires two workouts a day, PE and then practice for their Team Sport. This leads to burnout and dangerous situations of overwork.

My kids attended JCPS and they both had to attend PE classes during the day and then practice later in the day. Sometimes not leaving the practice till 5-7PM. They would be exhausted, partly because  they had worked out twice. They had a PE teacher telling them do things with no concern for  what they would be expected to do later in the day during practice for their team.

One way they could get more HS kids interested is to make a varsity sport qualify as a PE credit, not requiring a PE class during the day. They could all begin their practice during the last period of the day (making Adv.PE/Team Sports their last class) and finish practice that much earlier leaving more time for family and homework. This is how Indiana HS operated when I was in school (long time ago), it worked very well.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Very interesting Evilledad.

I've never had a problem with a kid having PE and playing a sport.  We all did it and never complained.  However that seems like a good idea.  except: How did the coahes get out of teaching the last period to actually coach their team.  Most coaches are not PE teachers.  In my experience many of the coaches that I know are History/government/Social Studies teachers. 

I don't think this is the reason for the lack of interest.  I have never heard a kid complain about taking gym in the day and going to practice afterwards.  I know back in the stone ae when I took PE.  I had PE last period of the day then went to wrestling practice.  I loved it.  I was able to dress early for practice and get out on the mat sooner.

[eville dad 17]

GOO,

I dont think this is the only reason for lack of interest among HS kids, but one obvious problem I have seen in my brief experience with JCPS. My kids used to comment how hard it was to lift in PE and then comeback later in the day and have to lift for conditioning, they did it and enjoyed it, but not all kids are that way. I personally was also a little concerned about safety for the kids and not the best way to train.

It just seems to me the idea of MS kids playing HS sports has gone overboard and for the wrong reason. More HS's are beginning to rely on MS kids because they need the numbers to field teams. I think one of the earlier post mentioned a HS softball team had 7 MS kids. We need to get more HS kids playing sports.

[grappler-of-old 44]

the weight lifting think I can understand.  Usually the coaches or the PE teaches know and understand that they should not do this twice.  My PE teacher allowed me to lift at practice, and my sons coach allows the wrestlers to lift with in PE if they can and not at practice.

[Pinned500 1]

I think  the middle schoolers are in high school wrestling is to fill the lower weight classes. There aren't that many high schoolers that weigh under 103 throughout high school. I also think middle schoolers should wrestle high school because it shows them what the competition is going to be like when they are in high school.

[jbigdaddy 8]

Has this rule had an affect on anyone yet?  It seems to me that the tale of the tape will be the development of these middle school athletic teams.  Will JCPS keep their promise?  I do hope that JCPS pushes for middle school wrestling, but I can't imagine that wrestling will land any higher than about 8 on the priority list. 

[sigep567 3]

My two cents:

I don't agree with the policy of banning middle school kids from High School Athletics. 

I was on the fence concerning the issue, but GOO's argument of kids who have been advanced in grades due to their intellectual performance was right on.  Check it out if you are just joining in the conversation.

This is also causing a problem with my schools feeder program at the moment.  I coached for Crosby's club team last year and I am the high school coach for Eastern this year.  All three coaches from Crosby last year are doing other things this year, leaving Crosby without a coach.  The middle school has not been able to place a coach for the team leaving not much of a team at all.  I couldn't do much for the 5th and 6th graders, as the coach for the high school now, but if this "ban" wasn't in place i could give the 7th and 8th graders the opportunity to keep wrestling in some fashion.  These kids are going to get left behind or have to find a club to wrestle with that may include a ton of logistical issues.  This is a very specific example of the problem, but I'm sure there are issues similar throughout the county in all sports.

[ridge44 0]

i have a question

can i middle school kid wrestle varsity for a public school is jcps when they are out of the county?

[Ranger123 43]

i have a question

can i middle school kid wrestle varsity for a public school is jcps when they are out of the county?

It is my understanding that the new policy will not allow a middle school kid to be on the varsity roster; they are not on the varsity team and cannot participate at any point.

[grappler-of-old 44]

lets also clear up that if a school not in the JCPS systems goes to a JCPS school to wrestle the opposing school can still have middle school wrestlers on their varsity team.  JCPS can only dictate what their own schools, and not the opposing schools.

[Charger Coach 14]

Good thing to know GOO.  I know our varsity 103, 112 & 119 are probably going to be 8th graders this year and even though we're not in the JCPS, we wrestle most of our tournaments in Jefferson County.

[eville dad 17]

I havent heard anyone mention the possibility that this could improve high school sports.

I have always believed that allowing middle school kids to compete in high school sports ultimately hurt the caliber of high school sports, regardless of the sport. I understand GOO's argument about the gifted students being allowed to study and play at advanced levels, but I believe this is the exception to the norm. Most MS kids are in HS sports to fill out the rosters, not because their skills are exceptional. The real problem is why arent there enough HS kids willing to participate in HS sports?

Could this change motivate schools, coaches and parents to recruit more High School aged kids to fill out their rosters?

[Ranger123 43]

I havent heard anyone mention the possibility that this could improve high school sports.

I have always believed that allowing middle school kids to compete in high school sports ultimately hurt the caliber of high school sports, regardless of the sport. I understand GOO's argument about the gifted students being allowed to study and play at advanced levels, but I believe this is the exception to the norm. Most MS kids are in HS sports to fill out the rosters, not because their skills are exceptional. The real problem is why arent there enough HS kids willing to participate in HS sports?

Could this change motivate schools, coaches and parents to recruit more High School aged kids to fill out their rosters?

Very good to hear from you eville.

I don't think most schools and coaches need any motivation.  Many of us can't do much more than we are to get the kids interested and out.  I can't speak for parents, but I know some that at least give lip service to trying to get the kids out.

I also don't think that middle schoolers wrestling up is mostly to fill a hole.  At smaller programs, that may be more often the case.  But I think that established programs are developing tremendous wrestlers at a younger age that can compete at the varsity level.  I remember telling you many years ago that John was ready to compete with the big boys at least as an 8th grader.  And if you look at the 8th graders that competed at a high level this year (Brock Ervin, Mitch Rusch, Clay Brown, Trae Blackwell, Sean Fausz, Mark Hall - 7th) there are a fair number that are ready.  Those were just the placers.  I'm sure there were even more who competed well or were part of teams that didn't allow them to wrestle up (Trinity).  Does that mean every kid should be thrown into that position?  Absolutely not.  But that doesn't mean the exceptional kid should be held back.  The school that I am "tied to" has had a number of kids wrestle up.  Some were the exceptionally gifted kids, some just filling a hole.  But I can confidently say that even the kids who filled a hole got valuable experience including competing in Frankfort.

[bulldog-leader 56]

I was one of those coaches that had to use middle schoolers to "Fill in spots".  I didn't do this because I was trying to win a dual or a tourney.  I did this because it was the only way my middle school kids would get any experience. 

I was an only coach and my budget would not allow a middle school schedule.  If I would have been forced to not allow middle school kids on the varsity either the varsity wrestlers or the middle school wrestlers would suffer.  I could not be in two places at once. 

What I did however was choose tourneys that would satisfy both.  Most of the tourneys I attended were weaker tourneys.  However even though they were weaker tourneys overall, I tried to make sure that there were at least a couple of larger more successful teams there so that my true varsity wrestlers would at least get one or two good matcheds in the placement rounds

[dscicle 6]

here's a question that the coaches in my area have thrown awhile eville: how many high school kids do you know who can LEGALLY get down to 103 in this day and age?? how about 112??

[grappler-of-old 44]

22 of the 32 kids in the state tourney were high school kids at 103

And 30 of the 32 were high school kids at 112

I would even guess that some of the middle schoolers that were at the state tourney beat out some high schoolers.

There are plenty of kids who are small enough in high school to wrestle these wt. classes. 

Heck when I wrestled the 1st two wt. classes were 98lbs and 105.  Which I wrestled my Fresh and soph years. (Without wt. loss the 1st year) :evil:

[eville dad 17]

I cant argue with with Ranger, the examples he gave, all those kids were very successful in wrestling high school while still in middle school.

But realize my comments apply to all high school sports and I still say the real problem is not enough high school kids are are participating in athletics. If the numbers were better I believe the oppportunity for middle school athletes would diminish because the overall quality of the high school sports would improve greatly. If this were to happen middle school athletics would also greatly improve.

I would like to see the school board award an academic credit in PE for all High School students participating in Varsity and Junior Varsity sports. This would be a great incentive for kids to participate in athletics.

Additionally, it makes no sense for students participating in  athletics to have to participate in Phys. Ed during season. The demand on the body of two extremely physical activities every day allows great protential for overstressing the body.  Additionally kids will learn so much more competing on a team than in a Phys. Ed class. There are to many high school age kids are willing to sit out rather than step up and compete.

[Ranger123 43]

Yes, I totally agree eville that is participation were near where it should be at most high schools then the opportunity for middle schoolers would be greatly diminished.  Then, for the most part, only those who were truly talented enough would earn a spot in the varsity lineup.  BUT, it seems to me JCPS is putting the cart before the horse and holding the middle schoolers out and expecting participation to come.  NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.  Kids are too lazy these days.  And most don't have good parental support to encourage them to stick with a tough sport like wrestling.

You bring up an interesting point about looking at all sports.  I can't imagine this is a big issue for the high profile sports.  So this is mostly aimed at the secondary sports or even worse those sports that are just hanging on.  It seems to me like this could be a way to show lack of participation in the struggling sports that are using middle schoolers the most and kill them.  Maybe I'm being too much of a conspiracy theorist, but I just cannot see any good rationale behind this move.

[DBW 1]

You bring up an interesting point about looking at all sports.  I can't imagine this is a big issue for the high profile sports.  So this is mostly aimed at the secondary sports or even worse those sports that are just hanging on.  It seems to me like this could be a way to show lack of participation in the struggling sports that are using middle schoolers the most and kill them.  Maybe I'm being too much of a conspiracy theorist, but I just cannot see any good rationale behind this move.

I love a good conspiracy theory, but I doubt that the people in charge have paid that much attention to secondary sports to see the real impact.  I think it is more likely that  it is a case of detached rulemakers using the "Field of Dreams" (Build it and they will come)theory that if you cut middle school participation then more high schoolers will come out and participate.  If more high schoolers come out it will strengthen that level and then middle school sports will be strengthened because there will be more middle school kids playing there, at a higher level.  That works well with football and basketball, but not for smaller sports.  At our school, we have several holes this year in weight classes or classes where we only will have one kid.  I can't say why, but my son has played pretty much every sport before he started wrestling last year, and I can safely say that nothing takes the physical and mental effort that he has put into wrestling.  I agree with Ranger that there are not many kids (or parents)who want to put that kind of effort into the sport with so little recognition.

[unbeaten55 0]

i think that middle school shouldnt be able to wreslte high school they should get more experince at that level because high school is a big jump from middle school

[grappler-of-old 44]

i think that middle school shouldnt be able to wreslte high school they should get more experince at that level because high school is a big jump from middle school

So Brock Ervin should not have been able to wrestle high school last year?  Why because he was the best at his wt. class. 

I guess Mark Hall should also not have been able to wrestle high school.

It was so obvious that these two just can not compete with high school students (This is sarcasm just in case you didn't understand it) geesh.

It should be up to the coach and the parent to decide if moving up is two difficult for each wrestler.

[Ranger123 43]

DBW - I think those in charge are actually paying a great deal of attention to all sports.  With the budget issues everyone is facing I think most are looking for ways to cut expenses.  Not sure you pay any attention to what is going on in Ohio, but the Toledo Public Schools shut down a lot of secondary sports this year.  Just saying, this feels a lot like an opportunity to do the same in JCPS.  Because I guarantee you will see fewer full squads out of Jefferson County this season, which equates to less success.  And when programs don't make money, are not as successful, and appear to have inadequate participation, they will be a target for budget cuts.

[eville dad 17]

After reading all the post I agree with most as to why they MS kids are needed and that some are very capable.

I think the point I am trying to make is why arent we getting more HS aged kids to participate to fill out the rosters, not just in wrestling but in all sports. How can the schools develop incentives for kids to participate in hs sports. We know that sports are crucial to the development of kids, to keep them active and out of trouble.  How can we motivate kids to stay involved? I thought the idea of academic credits could be one incentive to offer. How about varsity practice to be last period of the day for all varsity participants as Phys Ed so they dont practice so late into the night. What else could be developed to make it more beneficial to kids to be involved in school sports? Free tickets to varsity events, dances etc....? Any other ideas?