Thoughts from Middle School Tourney

[wristandahalf 1]

70 - Not as strong as in the past - AJ all the hard work paid off. Scaggs put up a good fight in the finals but AJ was in control in every match in the tourney.

75 - I didn't think he had it in him but Wiley brought his A game this weekend. Dominated every match start to finish. No one was close to him. Outstanding job.

82 - Ervin - what more can you say - one of the best in Kentucky

89 - Lampe - pound for pound one of the strongest wrestlers in Middle School. Looked great all day.

96 - Fahy - business as usual - looked very good all day

103 - Weddding - best wrestler of the day in the weight class with 3 of best wrestlers. Too bad there could only be 1 champ.

110 - Perez put up a good fight but Holtsclaw was too much.

117 - Cox from Fern Creek - where did this kid come from - a great weekend for him

124 - Carr - good match with Lopez from Elkhorn

131 - Cooper - dominate all weekend

140 - Bryant - looked great - took it to everyone all weekend

150 - Brummett - dominate - what more can you say but dominate

165 - Preston - another one - dominate

185 and Heavy - Vanover brothers - first time I saw them this year and it was a pleasure. True gentlemen on the mat and off from what I saw. Respectful to opponents and coaches.

Coaches - There are some of us that need to dial it down a notch and remember the example we are trying to set for the kids.

Parents - Same as above.

Refs - Some good some bad. Some very bad. Fortunately none of my guys lost a match on a bad call but I saw others that did. Throughout a long day a ref is not going to right all the time but for the most part they called it right. There was 1 who did not do a very good job and I think most coaches know who it was.

5 match rule - don't have an exact answer but something needs to be done to avoid a coin toss to decide 3rd or 4th or th or 6th. Everybody agrees but no one can agree on an answer.  A 2 day tournament would solve the problem but logistics probably prevent it. Possibly a set criteria to go by (common opponents, number of pins, total points, etc.). Don't have the answer but I'm sure there are more ideas.

Overall the tournament itself seemed to run smooth with no long waits on matches. It was a long day and the longest wait was if you kept winning. The bout board was kept up to date and the matches just kept being churned out.

Any other thoughts?

[LateralDrop 0]

The wrestling spoke for itself...!

I would say that we need to step it up a bit in the following areas:

a) 5 match rule... candidly the only word I can come up with here is embarrassing... How in the world can you create a state tournament where the major majority of the 3rd/4th place and 5th/6th matches were non existent due to this rule... is somebody actually kidding me that we are flipping coins for this... as they would say on SNL... REALLY!!!  Got to change this... as you suggested a two day tournament or a one event rule change should be in order very quickly... proper rankings are not being established by current system.  I would also submit that a two day tournament (logistical challenge or not) would create better wrestling and result... this is wrestling, not an ironman event!

Referees- many good, some also embarrassing... would suggest only the best be allowed to take part in this event that is critical to many developing wrestlers... when a referee can't hit the mat quick enough for back point due to physical limitations (no disrespect...) they might ought to look to be paid at other venues... this is not the venue for this activity.  When the referee looks at the wrestlers and make the serious question, "who won this bout"... just as he needs to raise a hand... we have a problem.  We know who they are... let's rid of them!

c) table workers- although I describe this as table workers... maybe should be placed under the referee section.  Way too many scoring errors with bouts... wrestlers winning 8-0, but disputes overruling acutal results take wreslters into a 4-4 tie and overtime situations... terrible!  Standards for these folks need to instituted for  major tournaments such as this.  As well, I would suggest that referees only allow for coach descrepencies after the whistle has blown to stop wrestling activity and after each period only for that period... once posted... done... no way to go back any further in the match to create dispute... saw wrestlers flat lose because of poor scoring and alternate scorer copying... no cell phones by these folks!!!

d) tournament logistics- would love to hear final results announced after each bout is completed... isn't that why brackets are sold incomplete... so we can know who is wrestling and complete them???  Other than that... very well run and "on time"!  Nice job!

e) tournament site and entry- very pricey!  Would submit there could be other premier locations to host site... maybe a consideration to create a bid process for other schools to host tournament.  Oh, how were they able to also host a dance at same location, same evening???  Weird...

f) did anyone say "middle school"???  What exactly is the definition of middle school??? why are there kids that aren't in middle school wrestling at this event?  Who defines "middle school"?

[Has Been 11]

I believe the coaches can contact the tournament director or the director should contact the assignments official to identify concerns regarding the official's.

Yes, a state tournament at any level should have high quality officiating :-D;

[Pooge 0]

I am gonna catch a lot of flack for this and I know it has been discussed, but to me if you make the choice to wrestle in high school you should not be eligible to wrestle in middle school again or the state tourney.  Same goes for elementary school kids wrestling up.  What really is gained other than some hardware for doing this?  Maybe someone can convince me I am wrong and I will buy it.

5 match limit rule has got to go or they have to make this a two day event.

[Ranger123 43]

I am gonna catch a lot of flack for this and I know it has been discussed, but to me if you make the choice to wrestle in high school you should not be eligible to wrestle in middle school again or the state tourney.  Same goes for elementary school kids wrestling up.  What really is gained other than some hardware for doing this?  Maybe someone can convince me I am wrong and I will buy it.

5 match limit rule has got to go or they have to make this a two day event.

A couple thoughts on the kids that wrestle with the high school and the elementary moving up.

It is very difficult to draw a line in the sand and say if you compete with the high school team then you are ineligible for middle school.  First, with no mandatory reporting of results it is impossible to know who is really competing with the high school team.  Second, often the kid is only filling an open spot (103 most of the time) at the high school level; they haven't moved up and beat out someone in a wrestle off.  They may be halfway competitive, but only because they are wrestling against other middle school kids.  When they hit the older, more experienced kids they get beat up.  I know that's not always the case, but it is a case where it doesn't seem fair to punish the kid for helping out his future varsity coach.

What does it hurt to have the elementary kids wrestling up?  If the middle school kids are good enough they will beat the young kids.  If not, too bad.  We have a lot of young kids that are developing quickly and need that competition to continue to grow into elite wrestlers.  If we force them to only beat up on inexperienced elementary kids week in and week out they won't get any better.  Plus, the youth programs have not progressed to the point of holding enough events around the state.  Yes, those in northern ky can cross the river to Cincinnati every Sunday, but for the most part there are not many opportunities for young kids across the state.

[hrvstrofsrrw 0]

I don't have a problem with elementary kids wrestling as much as they want, wherever they want.  But I see and agree with what the other guy was saying about middle schoolers wrestling up.  I also see what Ranger is saying about fill-ins.  If you're just stepping in for an injured wrestler or whatever, as long as it's temporary, that's ok.  But I don't think that a kid who is a legitimate competitor at the high school level should wrestle middle school.  What I want to know is how many middle school matches did people like Holtsclaw or the Vanovers (nothing against any of them) and the like wrestle other than region and state?  Are they just showing up at the middle school postseason to collect medals?  My point is that if a kid wrestles a certain number of high school matches, he can't be considered a "fill-in."  And I kind of feel like if you have chosen to wrestle high school, and you're the varsity guy, then you shouldn't go back to middle school. 

[myGSP 4]

If someone want to wrestle for 3rd thur 6th and have 5 matches on the day, stay till after midnight and wrestle then. Will make for a late night but cost less than 2 days and you get a true 3rd thru 6th or change the rule. Having criteria is OK for seeding but anything could happen in a match, criteria wouldn't give you true results.

Just a idea.

[oldhamwrestler 0]

I usually do not participate in the conversations on this site (I am not trying to say that they are bad...we use the KSWA site for communication purposes), but I did want to take a minute to comment on some of the above.  Any feedback directed towards Middle School Wrestling should be left under the "FEEDBACK" tab on the www.kyswa.org website.  We typically do not check this site and will miss your suggestions for improvement.

1. Referee's are assigned by the assigning secretary.  We do plan on looking (at the request of our coaches) to invite 2 referee's from each region in the future.  The association will have to provide travel/lodging and might need to raise entry fee's to provide this opportunity.  I want to thank all the referee's for there hard work this past weekend.

2. Table Workers:  We asked each coach/team/region to provide enough qualified table workers to cover each mat for the entire day.  We used what we had.  If the kids did not offer to work, we would not have been able to cover all the tables.  At one point in the day, we even made an announcement to get more volunteer's to relieve the workers and no one came down.  I appreciate all those that did work the tables and I want to thank them for their hard work.  I believe that they all did a great job.

3. 5-Match Rule: It is in our by-laws----KSWA events will follow the rules outlined by the National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) rules for wrestling.  Any exceptions or modifications to these rules will be listed in the KSWA bylaws:

4. Honestly, the best place to let your thoughts be heard is at the Association meetings in May and September.  We have had very little participation from teams considering the how much growth we have had in the past few years.  

Most of this is brought up on a yearly basis, and if it has not changed, it is because the Majority of coaches (state-wide) vote not to change them, or there is no a solution that a majority can agree on.  If you have opinions or suggestions, please make sure you let your coach know these so they can present them to the Association for discussion.

We are always looking for ways to improve our Association and the tournaments.  Thank you for your comments.

I think overall it was a great tournament and congratulation to all the participants.

-KSWA VP

[powerhalf 0]

I don't have a problem with elementary kids wrestling as much as they want, wherever they want.  But I see and agree with what the other guy was saying about middle schoolers wrestling up.  I also see what Ranger is saying about fill-ins.  If you're just stepping in for an injured wrestler or whatever, as long as it's temporary, that's ok.  But I don't think that a kid who is a legitimate competitor at the high school level should wrestle middle school.  What I want to know is how many middle school matches did people like Holtsclaw or the Vanovers (nothing against any of them) and the like wrestle other than region and state?  Are they just showing up at the middle school postseason to collect medals?  My point is that if a kid wrestles a certain number of high school matches, he can't be considered a "fill-in."  And I kind of feel like if you have chosen to wrestle high school, and you're the varsity guy, then you shouldn't go back to middle school. 

Whats the difference between Elementary and Middle Schoolers wrestling up?  Isn't it the same?

[Ranger123 43]

I don't have a problem with elementary kids wrestling as much as they want, wherever they want.  But I see and agree with what the other guy was saying about middle schoolers wrestling up.  I also see what Ranger is saying about fill-ins.  If you're just stepping in for an injured wrestler or whatever, as long as it's temporary, that's ok.  But I don't think that a kid who is a legitimate competitor at the high school level should wrestle middle school.  What I want to know is how many middle school matches did people like Holtsclaw or the Vanovers (nothing against any of them) and the like wrestle other than region and state?  Are they just showing up at the middle school postseason to collect medals?  My point is that if a kid wrestles a certain number of high school matches, he can't be considered a "fill-in."  And I kind of feel like if you have chosen to wrestle high school, and you're the varsity guy, then you shouldn't go back to middle school. 

I think the problem is where exactly do you draw the line?  A certain number of varsity matches?  But what about the 103s that are called up on a regular basis just to avoid the forfeit or to fill an empty weight class?  The kid could go 10-25 (with 8 forfeits).  Should he miss out on his middle school opportunity just for helping the varsity win a few dual meets?

Like has been said already, if the coaches really had a problem with it they would address it.

[myGSP 4]

A kid who is a legitimate competitor at the high school level and in middle school should be able to wrestle a MS State because he is in middle school. To say a 8th grader that placed 8th in HS State last year couldn't wrestle MS again is just wrong, otherwise all you are saying is the kid is to good to wrestle in MS. To punish a kid because he is that good is wrong, yes other kids might get beat up and might not place at MS state. To say I placed 8th place at HS state as a 7th grader sounds goods, to say I placed 1st at MS state sounds better. The earlier a kid starts wrestling the better he/she should get, that is if he is working hard and finding competition the is equal and better than his/her level.

[dog101 1]

I am gonna catch a lot of flack for this and I know it has been discussed, but to me if you make the choice to wrestle in high school you should not be eligible to wrestle in middle school again or the state tourney.  Same goes for elementary school kids wrestling up.  What really is gained other than some hardware for doing this?  Maybe someone can convince me I am wrong and I will buy it.

5 match limit rule has got to go or they have to make this a two day event.

I can speak from experience on this. My son wrestled his 7th grade year a 1/2 year of varsity till the regular wrestler was able to get the 2lb allowance. He was only able to finish 4th that year in ms state. This left him hungry and determined to win a title his 8th grade year.  As a result he went to camps, lifted weights, ran and did everything in his power to make himself a ms state champ. This allowed him to become good enough to win a spot on the varsity.  This also allowed him to win ms state last year.

So tell me what should I have done?  Not let him wrestled because as a byproduct oh his hard work he was able to compete at varsity also. 

[tc125 0]

i have said this before, just because someone is good enough to wrestle at a higher level, why should me not let them wrestle with their true age group? look at harrison courtney for example, just because he dominates everyone he wrestles, and could compete at a college level, should we ban him from the state tournament, and make him wrestle at college regionals? no, he wrestles with his own age group until he is old enough to go higher, even though during the summer, im sure he competes with college wrestlers.

[turk 7]

I'm just wondiering how you can call it a State Championship if the best kids don't compete?  I loved watching the 103 & 110 finals, if those kids couldn't compete how is that fair to anyone.  I personally am looking to raise the bar not lower it. I look forward to the day when it's a privilege just to make it to this unbelievably tough 32 man bracket tournament.

[tc125 0]

i agree, i know i wouldnt take pride winning a tournament, that the best kids werent at.

[Just Wrestle 0]

If a kid is in the 8th grade(and age is ok), he should be able to wrestle in any Middle School tournament he wants. 

That talk about not letting someone wrestle because the wrestle varsity is stupid.  That just means that kid is really good.  Good for him.

[eville dad 17]

This HS vs MS issue was debated for years and finally resolved to some satisfaction!

I still wish a MS kid wrestling HS were required to compete in a minimal number or matches at the MS level to qualify for MS post season tourney. This would eliminate someone showing up at regionals and state that noone has heard of because he has been training and competing all year at the HS. It seems like if they at least wrestled a few MS matches then everyone would have a chance to know the competition.

[hrvstrofsrrw 0]

Everyone brings up excellent points, and there aren't really any easy answers to most of the questions.  However, the difference between elementary going up vs. middle school going up is that there is no organization at the elementary level.  Plus, good luck finding very many middle schoolers to fill the 70, 75, and 82 weight classes.  Just as much as anyone I want to see the very best compete for the prize.  Someone mentioned the 103 finals this year.  Neither one of them wrestles up to my knowledge, so that doesn't matter and I don't have a problem with that.  To address another point mentioned, I think age definitely should be a factor.  Now of course I don't have birth certificate records, but having talked to various coaches and others, the ages of some wrestlers have come into question in recent years.  There are those out there who think that there are essentially some freshmen wrestling against 6th, 7th, and 8th graders, which I think is unfair.  Again, I have no proof, but questions have been asked.  Ultimately,this issue of wrestling up is going to have to be addressed.  Middle school wrestling in KY is getting bigger and eventually the schedule will be such that the postseasons of MS and HS will come into conflict.  In fact, it may be that way next year with the switch to districts (someone correct me if I'm wrong).  Where do those kids wrestle then?  Which brings me back to one of my previous questions: how much do the studs who wrerstle up actually participate in MS wrestling other than the postseason?  I'm all for hardware, but if better competition is to be had at the high school level, then why not wrestle at a high school tournament on the weekends of the MS tourneys?  Like I said before, it's a tricky issue, but those guys are going to have to pick one or the other eventually because they won't be able to just show up at the MS region and state to collect their medals.

[stanmms 4]

Slight correction:  The KSYWA was officially organized 2 years ago with bylaws and a board of directors.  Regionals are being held at 6 different locations with the State Tournament being held on March 7th at Fern Creek High School.  By the way, we're expecting close to 1000 kids.  Easily the largest wrestling tournament ever in KY.  If you need information on the Youth organization or have kids that may want to attend Regionals and State send me an email.  I will be glad to help.

[hrvstrofsrrw 0]

Correction to what?  I'm sure we're all aware that the elementary level has a state tournament and now is having a regional tournament.  But during the actual wrestling season, October 15 to February 15, how many elementary events occur.  Why is that?  No organization, no time, no willing personnel.  Heck, the guys at the middle school busts their butts, and do a heck of a job, to get what little organization exists currently.

[Has Been 11]

I usually do not participate in the conversations on this site (I am not trying to say that they are bad...we use the KSWA site for communication purposes), but I did want to take a minute to comment on some of the above.  Any feedback directed towards Middle School Wrestling should be left under the "FEEDBACK" tab on the www.kyswa.org website.  We typically do not check this site and will miss your suggestions for improvement.

1. Referee's are assigned by the assigning secretary.  We do plan on looking (at the request of our coaches) to invite 2 referee's from each region in the future.  The association will have to provide travel/lodging and might need to raise entry fee's to provide this opportunity.  I want to thank all the referee's for there hard work this past weekend.

2. Table Workers:  We asked each coach/team/region to provide enough qualified table workers to cover each mat for the entire day.  We used what we had.  If the kids did not offer to work, we would not have been able to cover all the tables.  At one point in the day, we even made an announcement to get more volunteer's to relieve the workers and no one came down.  I appreciate all those that did work the tables and I want to thank them for their hard work.  I believe that they all did a great job.

3. 5-Match Rule: It is in our by-laws----KSWA events will follow the rules outlined by the National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) rules for wrestling.  Any exceptions or modifications to these rules will be listed in the KSWA bylaws:

4. Honestly, the best place to let your thoughts be heard is at the Association meetings in May and September.  We have had very little participation from teams considering the how much growth we have had in the past few years.  

Most of this is brought up on a yearly basis, and if it has not changed, it is because the Majority of coaches (state-wide) vote not to change them, or there is no a solution that a majority can agree on.  If you have opinions or suggestions, please make sure you let your coach know these so they can present them to the Association for discussion.

We are always looking for ways to improve our Association and the tournaments.  Thank you for your comments.

I think overall it was a great tournament and congratulation to all the participants.

-KSWA VP

Is it possible or practical to require the Middle School Regions and State tournament officials having to meet the same requirements as the high school :?

That would limit first year officials or those that don't want to get certified for end of year tournaments :roll:

[ryledad 0]

There are tournaments every weekend for youth beginning in December and continuing throughout January and February.  Great tournaments with unbelievable competition.  Travel north until you hit the Ohio river then crossover.  The organization is called Cincinnati Youth Wrestling.  Several teams from northern Kentucky and Louisville compete every weekend.

[stanmms 4]

In Central Ky. they formed a league and wrestle just about every weekend.  Those coaches are doing a great job of promoting Youth wrestling.  Ryle held a Youth tournament (3rd yr) and over 400 kids wrestled on Jan. 10th. 

I don't pretend to know every tournament being held in Ky. but I am sure the Youth coaches are doing all they can to promote wrestling as evidenced by the huge growth.  I don't know how many Middle and High School tournaments are held throughout the season but remember both of these organizations have been around for considerably longer than Youth.

[Nightmare 0]

To those of you who think middle schoolers who wrestle varsity shouldnt wrestle at middle school state...

grow up and quit whinning. I think you're just afraid of guys like Cooper or Holtzclaw whooping the crap out of your kid  :evil:

[Has Been 11]

This HS vs MS issue was debated for years and finally resolved to some satisfaction!

I still wish a MS kid wrestling HS were required to compete in a minimal number or matches at the MS level to qualify for MS post season tourney. This would eliminate someone showing up at regional and state that noone has heard of because he has been training and competing all year at the HS. It seems like if they at least wrestled a few MS matches then everyone would have a chance to know the competition.

Eville Dad,  You have been around for a while and heard all the discussions.

How's this, the high school programs develop a program and a team not requiring middle school kids in the line up :-o  I never imagine middle school kids wrestling varsity until I came to KY and saw such small numbers at the high school level.

How many middle school kids wrestle varsity in Oh, Mi, IN, PA etc... at the varsity level :?  Not many, especially after 119.

Until all out programs can fill out a lineup - what's the problem. The high school kids and coaches don't mind beating up middle schoolers that move up. So why do the middle schoolers have a issue getting beat by some one in the same weigh class, the same age/grade range.  I think this is more of a parent issue than the kids. :-D

Seniors beat up Freshman and 8th grader will continue to beat up 6th graders, it just fact.

How many runner ups or 3rd place kids quit wrestling because they got beat by 2 and 3 x Champions:

Logan Wedding

Kenneth Brummett

Kevin Cooper

Brock Ervin

Matt Fahy

Samuel Vanover

Oops -  Heartlessly "ONLY" won one middle school championship, so why does everyone want to take the opportunity away from all his hard work and OTHERS that desire to want to get better.  Plus he may wrestle varsity because he is the best his team has to offer and he is only a middle schooler :-o

Shame on the high school programs for not have better high school wrestlers :-D

Give it a break  :wink: