Ranger123 43 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 The meetings are very seldom in a location convenient to me, or should I say US in NKy. In fact they were routinely held in Richmond hoping to get some Eastern participation. Guess what? Didn't happen. Here is the way the process works. I offer the hosting option to the coaches that consistently attend. If they bother to drive and show up I give them an opportunity to stay home. Same thing has happened with western ky. We've tried going a bit west for meetings and many of them don't make it. BUT I will give most every coach out there credit. They seldom if ever complain about the decisions that are made; they just say we didn't participate so we take what we get. Since I have been involved in MS wrestling the coaches meeting was held in NKy once. So if in fact we rotated among the regions we are well overdue in NKy. But instead we will all travel so those who complain can NOT be there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluesdad 73 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Ranger let me say this. I think your a great guy. I've not spoken to you a lot but the times I have you have been very nice and polite. I think your an awesome coach, I mean the proof is in the pudding. I also think your in this for all the right reasons. My complaint is maybe something of an armchair QB so to speak. I know we don't have all the info and hear all the discussions. But it seems a lot of decisions are made with out our region in mind. Like the new seeding criteria. Was there a criteria for the seeding? Was it voted on? Why change the blind draw? It worked for years why change it. Some people I've spoken to seem to think it's to place certain kids certain places. I didn't get on here to complain about Blues seed. I think that was a miscommunication. I just want what's best for the kids and sometimes when I feel there was a slight toward them I get a little to aggressive. So to you Ranger and any person from NKy who thought I was attacking them I apologize. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REscalera 189 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 I apologize that my point got lost in translation with my earlier post. I was in no way aiming to have a my son out did your son conversation and I never put your son down nor did I attempt to belittle any of his accomplishments. My post was an attempt to illustrate how ridicules your posts can sometimes sound, especially once all the information begins to fall into place. I apologize for not just coming out and saying that. Messages laced with sarcasm, like my previous post, often times are misunderstood. So I apologize for the sarcasm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REscalera 189 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 As for an earlier post discussing making it mandatory for our wrestlers to attend meets. I think this is a great idea on many fronts. Of course, we couldn't make it mandatory in any way other than for seeding purposes but it would provide the individuals that seed with the necessary information. It will also allow Kentucky the opportunity to showcase its wrestlers to our neighboring states. WV had several teams from OH & IN, John Hardin and Union County had teams from TN & IN. By putting these larger tournaments together and requiring that our own wrestlers attend a certain number throughout the year, we would ensure that these tournaments are filled with the best young wrestlers KY has to offer allowing us to compete with the clubs/wrestlers from TN, OH, IN & and other surrounding states that come to our tournaments. The more competitive they become the more they will grow. We are full of a lot of really good young wrestlers, some great. Lets not keep them a secret. With the relationships our friends in eastern KY have in West Virginia and eastern TN, I am certain they could put together a great tournament and pull in some strong out of state talent for us too. I have heard a lot of people talk about KY not being considered much of a wrestling state. This should put us on the map. Maybe just a small little city on the map but a growing city that's for sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pmiller13 14 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Quote from son: dad I don't care where I am seeded, I just want to win! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rjs4470 103 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Next time you call a meeting let's have it in Eastern Ky. Then the time after that let's have it in western Ky. Then well have it in NKy. That way all coaches from all districts and regions can attend and have a hand in shaping the by laws and rules. The meetings are always held where and when coaches and concerned parents from other regions can't attend. We can't just up and drive 3 hours to a meeting with work and life activites. I know some of you may not believe this but I'm not just trying to be a pain in the butt. I love this sport and want to make it the best for all wrestlers in this state. I think for this to happen the whole state needs to have more of a voice. As far as meeting locations, I've been to the last 3 and logged over 700 miles (as have most of the other NKY Coaches) of driving for about 6 total hours of actual meeting time. Is it inconvenient?? A little. But they are held on Sundays, and it is only twice a year. And just about all the NKY coaches manage to make it. And I can assure you, that none of the discussions that have taken place, even remotely have a NKY slant. We don't sit around and decide how we can work over the rest of the state, or create secret handshakes designed to keep all others out. I can guarantee, if someone from Eastern KY would offer to host a meeting, the Nky coaches will be there. I can also almost guarantee a few NKY teams would travel to Eastern KY for a tourney. The were a couple open dates on the schedule this year (January 4th and 11th) that didn't get filled until almost right before the season started, and even then a lot of teams were still looking for places to go. Would have been a great opportunity for an EKY school to host an event. Instead, two NKY schools stepped up and hosted events on those dates. It just surprises me how much the move to seeding the State Tourney has caused so much friction. Every tournament I go to, I hear coaches complain about the draw some of their wrestlers get (myself included), and a move gets made to fix that in the biggest tourney of the year, and suddenly people don't want seeding. It will make the tournament better. I for one, am happy that we have an association that continues to try to evolve and get better, rather than sitting back and making the same mistakes over and over, because "that's how we've always done it". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marriedtothemat 13 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 "But when all these by laws and rules are put into place whatever is best suited for NKy is what is passed. Its a numbers game, and you guys have the numbers." Maybe instead of complaining about the NKy coaches who are active participants and working hard to improve this sport for all wrestlers, you should be complaining about the coaches who don't bother to show up at the state meetings and then want to complain about the decisions that were made there. The state meetings are open to all coaches. The dates and times are routinely posted on this site. Every coach has the opportunity to attend and share their opinions and vote on the issues at hand. The meetings are generally held in a central location as to be more convenient to more coaches. The NKy coaches are not the only coaches there. Many of the Jefferson County and surrounding area coaches are there, along with other coaches from around the state. These coaches are giving up their time to discuss the issues and try to do what is best for the kids and the sport. Every team represented there gets the same right to voice their opinion and vote. You may not know this but coaches are also allowed to mail in their votes if they are unable to attend the meeting. So every coach in this state has the opportunity to vote on all issues. If coaches don't bother to attend or mail in their votes, they have NO right to complain. On a side note, a wise coach once told by son, "if you allow a ref to decide a match for you, you have no one to blame for the loss but yourself." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keepyourheadup 10 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Next time you call a meeting let's have it in Eastern Ky. Then the time after that let's have it in western Ky. Then well have it in NKy. That way all coaches from all districts and regions can attend and have a hand in shaping the by laws and rules. The meetings are always held where and when coaches and concerned parents from other regions can't attend. We can't just up and drive 3 hours to a meeting with work and life activites. I know some of you may not believe this but I'm not just trying to be a pain in the butt. I love this sport and want to make it the best for all wrestlers in this state. I think for this to happen the whole state needs to have more of a voice. the meetings have been held at different locations all over the state Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marriedtothemat 13 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 "Coach Matney watched it and said they were nothing wrong with the way Blue was setup at all. Said the ref blew the call" Would you and coach Matney also like to blame the ref for the fact that Blue gave up a point because he didn't have his mouthpiece or will you take responsibility for that one? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigshow78 1 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Can someone answer a question for me? Why are we doing seeding? Is it to make sure the two best wrestlers make ot to the finals? If this is the theroy I dont agree. I like the blind drawl its fair to every wrestler. Go out wrestle who ever steps on the mat with you beat them and advance or go home. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rjs4470 103 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Can someone answer a question for me? Why are we doing seeding? Is it to make sure the two best wrestlers make ot to the finals? If this is the theroy I dont agree. I like the blind drawl its fair to every wrestler. Go out wrestle who ever steps on the mat with you beat them and advance or go home. In my mind, seeding just makes sure the brackets are balanced in terms of strength, therefore producing a competitive tournament. It doesn't ensure that the best two wrestlers make the finals.....you still have to beat your opponent to advance. But lets face it, there is usually a pretty big gap between the top few wrestlers and the bottom few wrestlers, even at the state tournament. And if all the talent gets stacked on one side of a bracket, it leads to non competitive matches in the finals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
uk_rebel33 4 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Can someone answer a question for me? Why are we doing seeding? Is it to make sure the two best wrestlers make ot to the finals? If this is the theroy I dont agree. I like the blind drawl its fair to every wrestler. Go out wrestle who ever steps on the mat with you beat them and advance or go home. What a great question bigshow78. I would like to here a response to that. I believe seeding is to ensure that the best teams are able to get the most team points to contend for the team title. I don't think it benefits the individuals in the bracket, just team points. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluesdad 73 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 This thread took on a life of it's own something I wasn't trying to achieve with my posts. I don't think it does the site or sport any good. It just makes grown folks post things that they probably shouldn't. But good luck to all the wrestlers around the state stay safe and wrestle hard. God bless. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigshow78 1 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Im sorry if I sound ignorant but I dont understand why there needs to be seeding. For starters the criteria is wrong. The whole common opponent thing dont make sence to me. Anybody can be beat. If a middle of the pack wrestler gos out and catches a hammer with a lucky move then then the same kid gets beat by a lower talent wrestler does that mean the lower talent wrestler can beat the hammer. No. Besides if your only seeding the number one seeds whos to say they are the best four wrestlers anyways. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger123 43 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 So you are saying we should never seed tournaments? If that's the case then why don't we just let the computer totally random draw the brackets. Why separate the region champs? Because it is fair and balanced. I've heard a few arguments against seeding (hard to get coaches together, not enough head to head or common opponent, records are skewed,etc) but never that random draw is BETTER. Really? So it is better if the top 2 or 3 kids in a weight are grouped together due to the luck of the draw? As far as the criteria, head to head and common opponents are always at or near the top of the list. Returning state champs/placers and the like took care of themselves including Mr Gamble. Take a few minutes today and chat with Coach Matney. I'm sure he will confirm. As for the idea that this was just a way to manipulate team scores that is ridiculous. My team has been rather successful under the prior format. Because it is better for the kids. Not my team or another NKy team, but better for the kids who have earned the rich for a fair and balanced bracket. Not some coach playing the lottery hoping for a cakewalk to the podium. Just glancing at the seeds it appears to me that there is a nice balance and distribution between a number of teams for top seeds and lower seeds. 11 different teams have #1s. Union co has 3. Not sure what bias that was. Hayes has 2. What? Could that be region 4? Yes. Region 4 and 1 had the most number 1s with 5 each. I guess it is helping NKy or even River City (sorry Coach Q) team scores by manipulating the seeds and not getting the 1s. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NighthawkWrestling 11 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 I have my own personal beliefs on the "seeding" issue. It's never been an issue in years past so why is it this year? I don't see this hurting or helping the association as a whole, so big picture not a big deal. I'm not sure how many states do this, would like to see the number on it. The only issue I ever had about the state tournament was how the 1 and 3 seed from the same region were on the same side. It killed us one year when a kid got upset at Regional's and finished 3rd. As it played out he then wrestled our returning state champ and regional champ in the semi's at state and beat him 4-3. I strongly believe had the individual been on the other side we would have been in the state finals competing against him instead of taking 6th place. I'm glad that is taken care of. Again why the need to seed? Not being critical just curious, do we really think this will benefit the kids or the sport in any sorta way? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rjs4470 103 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 So you are saying we should never seed tournaments? If that's the case then why don't we just let the computer totally random draw the brackets. Why separate the region champs? Because it is fair and balanced. I've heard a few arguments against seeding (hard to get coaches together, not enough head to head or common opponent, records are skewed,etc) but never that random draw is BETTER. Really? So it is better if the top 2 or 3 kids in a weight are grouped together due to the luck of the draw? As far as the criteria, head to head and common opponents are always at or near the top of the list. Returning state champs/placers and the like took care of themselves including Mr Gamble. Take a few minutes today and chat with Coach Matney. I'm sure he will confirm. As for the idea that this was just a way to manipulate team scores that is ridiculous. My team has been rather successful under the prior format. Because it is better for the kids. Not my team or another NKy team, but better for the kids who have earned the rich for a fair and balanced bracket. Not some coach playing the lottery hoping for a cakewalk to the podium. Just glancing at the seeds it appears to me that there is a nice balance and distribution between a number of teams for top seeds and lower seeds. 11 different teams have #1s. Union co has 3. Not sure what bias that was. Hayes has 2. What? Could that be region 4? Yes. Region 4 and 1 had the most number 1s with 5 each. I guess it is helping NKy or even River City (sorry Coach Q) team scores by manipulating the seeds and not getting the 1s. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
8798 45 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Forget the seeding. Separate the champs, runners-up, thirds, etc. and let the cream rise to the top. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NighthawkWrestling 11 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 If the cream will rise to the top then why put any effort into separating them? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
8798 45 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Could you imagine the outrage? There are so many variables when seeding a state tournament. (Many tournaments actually...) Head to Head, Common Opponent, ultimately, due to regular season scheduling, some of it may come down to opinion. Separating athletes based on their performance at the Regional level rewards their efforts in the State Tournament Series. Separating athletes on that basis allows for a bit more black and white when setting up the brackets...as a result, we do not run into as much confusion and disagreement. It will never be completely resolved as placing athletes based on their Regional finishes may pit the perceived top two wrestlers in the state in an early round, but it takes the opinion out of the issue. Certainly not full-proof, but more concrete and everyone knows what they are getting in the process. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger123 43 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 If seeding is not needed or not important why do we ever do it. Or at early season tournaments when we don't seed coaches always complain when the best kids wrestle early. By the way that affects team scoring too. I'm just not the great concern. If you think the random draw is fine then how does seeding hurt you? It doesn't. Yes it required some extra time and effort. If you don't think it is worth it them don't participate. Pretend we are randomly drawing the bracket and move on. Let's look at a situation. Not that we have kids at this level, but let's consider the possibility that Brock Ervin and Sean Fausz both stayed at 138. Would that be an amazing highlight match for the state finals or what? Under the spotlight. Two of the best of our generation. With a random draw they can wrestle in the quarters. Does that make sense? Does that build excitement for Saturday night in Lexington? Again we don't have anything on that level, but the state tournament is about much more than crowning a state champion. Getting into the finals is a big deal. There will always be big upsets in every tournament. That doesn't mean we should just ignore the fact that after the #1 other kids have earned their consideration as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
8798 45 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Maybe I should rephrase. I suppose, by way of Regional results, there is actually some type of seeding taking place...thus, my rephrasing. I certainly have no problem with what is currently taking place...I have no dog in this fight and even if I did, I have no leadership in the organization. I just noticed some intensity on the thread. I get that we want the best matches for the final, but as we grow that seeding process will become increasingly more difficult. (Which I am certain you know.) And growth is good! And I know that having the best matches in the finals right now is a good way to grow the sport. But we will ultimately get to the place where it may not be possible due to the sheer number of wrestlers and their diverse schedules. Again, i think it is fine for now...just thinking forward with no criticism of current procedures. A number of years ago, I remember being told of the numbers one and two ranked wrestlers having to wrestle one another in the Indiana semi-state to qualify for State. One had to go home when he lost. Not the most peasant of situations, but something we may see as our sport grows! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLee 68 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 A true "randon draw" could potentially put a Regional Champ vs Regional Champ first round! A random draw is nothing more than the lazy way to do a seed meeting. Kudos to the MS association and coaches around the state for stepping up and getting it done the right way. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NighthawkWrestling 11 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 MLee- just out of curiosity, what makes this the "right" way? What classifies "Right"? If this is the "Right" way why doesn't more follow this pattern? No way only KY can be ahead of the pack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
8798 45 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 A true "Random Draw" for the State Tournament series would be a HUGE mistake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
