myGSP 4 Report post Posted December 17, 2009 What are your thoughts? Should the KHSAA make a rule like other states? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
possumdaddy 23 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 If a kid is good enough to wrestlwe on the H.S. level and he wins the spot let him go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
risingtide160 1 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 Prime example is harrison courtney. He won middle school state as a 6th grader and placed in high school state 7th and 8 th grade yrs and actually should have won state his 8th grade year if not for some horrible calls and then he is a 4timer. So someone like him shouldnt be allowed to wrestle in high school even though hes in middle school? I know he wrestled only high school only when he was in middle school which i guess i can understand why but dont we all agree he should have been wrestling high school? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
userdaddy 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 Livingston Merritt Placed as a 7th and 8th grader as well. Jo Carr Jr won it in 8th grade. Dumb not to let them wrestle if they are able. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
userdaddy 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 Joe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naplesme 58 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 What are your thoughts? Should the KHSAA make a rule like other states that M.S. can't wrestle H.S.? If M.S.'s are wrestling in H.S. should they still be able to wrestle in M.S. / M.S. State?We've already had this discussion once before, but here goes: The last time the state disallowed Middle school wrestler to wrestle varsity it nearly killed the sport. We are just now recovering and getting programs back to health and growing. Yes they should be allowed to wrestle varsity. Yes, they should be allowed to wrestle in middle school even though they wrestle varsity. Who cares what other states are doing? If you're a middle school wrestler who gets beat by a varsity wrestler who is also in middle school, get better. This isn't the YMCA where we give everyone a trophy and make them feel good about themselves, it's competition. Coaches are not stupid. My son wrestled varsity last year as an 8th grader. He was ready and qualified for state. I've had other middle school wrestlers who weren't ready and did not get to wrestle varsity, that was a choice I made. To me middle school wrestlers, wrestling varsity are paramount to the continued success and growth of the sport in our state. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tiltfor3 20 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 What are your thoughts? Should the KHSAA make a rule like other states that M.S. can't wrestle H.S.? If M.S.'s are wrestling in H.S. should they still be able to wrestle in M.S. / M.S. State?We've already had this discussion once before, but here goes: The last time the state disallowed Middle school wrestler to wrestle varsity it nearly killed the sport. That is being a little dramatic, isn't it? I wonder how many HS programs have died that had a vibrant youth wrestling organization. Did Henderson? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bulldog-leader 56 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 I don't think this is being to dramatic. After many years at a struggling school I can tell you firsthand. If middle school kids were not allowed to wrestle in high school events I would never have had a middle school kid on the team.For most of my 9 years at this school I was the only coach. I was unable to send middle school kids to middle school matches. I was finally able to find a way to get some of them to the middle school region and state the last 3 years. (Both times allowing them to go to the state tournament without a coach, obviously against school policy). My point is this. Big programs have no trouble getting wrestling matches for their middle school teams. Small schools and struggling schools don't have the resources to do this. The only way they can get middle school kids matches is by allowing them to wrestle high school.As for the comment about not all middle schools are allowed to compete in high school I would counter that not all high schools can compete in wrestling. That is just a silly argument to not allow middle school wrestlers the chance to wrestle high school. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coach Osborne 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 I have always been torn by the idea of middle school kids wrestling in high school. I believe that my perception was strongly based on the fact that it was not an option in the state that I came from. The problems that I thought came along with it are the obvious ones that every other person has thougt at one time. However these thoughts were squalched after watching Cooper from Simon Kenton and most recently Hall from Ryle. These two young men are great examples that someone with that youth can compete at the High School Level. After watching these guys and other4 x champs from Indiana and Ohio it makes one question, what if they were allowed to wrestle varsity in MS?Obviously the sport has grown a lot in the state the last few seasons, and if it keeps growing we may not have this discussion as to whether MS kids should be wrestling HS, because evolution of the sport may not allow it, meaning that weight classes may be so strong from 9th-12th grades that these middle school kids may not be able to crack the line up. I could be wrong, but if it ever gets to the point where the best kids in HS are actually HS kids that would be a great day for the sport in the state because it would mean wrestling has reached a higher level. Once again these are just my ideas, but at the end of the day if putting the best person on the mat means using a ms kid then that is how it should be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigCoach 3 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 Let me also throw this out as well. The KHSAA cannot keep middle school kids from wrestling high school varsity. About 8 or 9 years back, the LaRue coaches contacted their state senator (Dan Kelly and thus bypassing the KHSAA) and had their senator submit a bill allowing 7th and 8th graders to participate in high school wrestling. They did it because they had a 6th grader at the time who they were confident could start and do well at the high school varsity level in his 7th grade year. The bill was passed and signed into law by the governor. The only way middle schoolers now cannot participate is if the legislature passes a law disallowing it. That sixth grader for the LaRue County team was Patrick Banks who went on to break all wrestling records for LaRue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coach Osborne 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 Really did not know it was a law, I guess you learn something new everyday. Big Coach: Do you think if I knew the right person that we could mandate wrestling the state tournament at a location that has a minimum of 6 mats? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tiltfor3 20 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 I don't think this is being to dramatic. After many years at a struggling school I can tell you firsthand. If middle school kids were not allowed to wrestle in high school events I would never have had a middle school kid on the team.For most of my 9 years at this school I was the only coach. I was unable to send middle school kids to middle school matches. I was finally able to find a way to get some of them to the middle school region and state the last 3 years. (Both times allowing them to go to the state tournament without a coach, obviously against school policy). My point is this. Big programs have no trouble getting wrestling matches for their middle school teams. Small schools and struggling schools don't have the resources to do this. The only way they can get middle school kids matches is by allowing them to wrestle high school.As for the comment about not all middle schools are allowed to compete in high school I would counter that not all high schools can compete in wrestling. That is just a silly argument to not allow middle school wrestlers the chance to wrestle high school.Not exactly a "vibrant" youth program. If they have a committed youth program, it'll be there when they get to high school. If not, you can ask LaRue to get the law changed.The key is ALWAYS get parents involved and start the kids early. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LateralDrop 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 maybe we ought (then) pre predict what college our kids would/ should go to and allow them to wrestle off for that/ those colleges as well... wow! this happens to be the dumbest rule allowable and why don't you think other "good wrestling" states don't allow this rule. End of day, open tournaments allow for this mentality based on weight. College wrestlers are college wrestlers... high school wrestlers are high school wrestlers... middle school wrestlers should be middle schoolers... and youth... youth....Each level has it's own characteristics and they are all about developmental. If you want the sport to grow, you must provide as many opportunities for wresters to start wrestling and stay motivated, not shut wrestlers down by allowing wrestlers from outside "tiers/ levels" to shatter that motivation. Sure, there are great kids that can wrestle outside their level/ tier... whoop ding! They'll have their time! In the meantime, let others have theirs as well. This shouldn't be about "Dads" needing to see how good thier kids acutally are... or coaches needing to stack teams to make them better than what they have the resources within their own schoolgo to do so... the Fargo Nationals for that.Thanks for taking time to listen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryledad 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 Middle School wrestlers moving up to varsity or youth wrestlers moving to middle school ultimately is decided upon by skill level. If you are good enough to move up then have at it. Those that have difficulty typically silently move back down the kids themselves know. I don't know of a child being permanently injured solely due to his upward movement except for maybe pride. But lets face it several varsity teams have had very successful kids from their ms program and I don't think they would tell you I wish they wouldn't have let me move up. Josh Johnson, JJ Jude, Kevin Cooper, Matt Slone Luke Troxell. Those kids have been wrestling varsity since I can recall. I truly don't understand what all the fuss is about. There will be more in the future who will fill the ranks of the varsity squad. More power to them. Let em wrestle! No disrespect to anyone.Remember that it is ok to disagree but not disagreeable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eville dad 17 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 I think high school aged kids wrestle college age kids during the Midlands Tournament.I personally dont like the idea of MS wrestling HS. It really just seems to be a by product of the state having poor high school programs that makes it practical anyway. It seems to work in KY and over time if the sport continues to grow will be diminished with the improvement of HS wrestling Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bulldog-leader 56 Report post Posted December 19, 2009 Not exactly a "vibrant" youth program. If they have a committed youth program, it'll be there when they get to high school. If not, you can ask LaRue to get the law changed.The key is ALWAYS get parents involved and start the kids early.Boy you sure didn't get the point of my message.You are correct, not a good youth program. School and parents in this school district don't support wrestling. Still does not mean we stop trying. In my 9 years I had only 3 sets of parents show up regularly to wrestling events. Most of the parents didn't even see there kids place at the state tourney. Let alone help out with practice or transportation to youth or middle school tourneys.Bottom line. If not for allowing middle school kids to wrestle we would not have had any competitive wrestlers in the high school. They would have either quit while in middle school because of not getting any matches or not started until they were freshman. When answering questions like these don't think about eh top teams in the state think how it will affect the bottom 10% of the team in the state. If we lose these schools then it hurts our overall number of wrestlers in the state. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naplesme 58 Report post Posted December 19, 2009 Each level has it's own characteristics and they are all about developmental. If you want the sport to grow, you must provide as many opportunities for wresters to start wrestling and stay motivated, not shut wrestlers down by allowing wrestlers from outside "tiers/ levels" to shatter that motivation. Sure, there are great kids that can wrestle outside their level/ tier... whoop ding! They'll have their time! In the meantime, let others have theirs as well. So, if a High School kid is good enough to compete at the Olympics he/she shouldn't be allowed as their not in the same age group. Based on your line of thinking Wilma Rudloph shouldn't have been allowed to compete in the 1956 Olympics because she was still in High School. Stay in your own tiers, that's just stupid. If you're good enough, you move up. That's why High schoolers move on to he NBA instead of going to college. If a middle school wrestler is ready he moves up. Why punish a wrestler who is good enough to move up. If he beats your high school wrestler then your high school wrestler should get better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LateralDrop 0 Report post Posted December 19, 2009 naplesme... thanks! you added a level that I didn't even consider... you're awesome!!! Thanks!The Olympics... great add and example... if you know anything about the Olympics, it is an "open" environment.... anyone (although the Olympic Committee {i think} has provided stipulations....) can enter and compete... again, let's assume there wasn't an age requirement.... but sure there is... there isn't a "school" affiliation, but a country... i'll let you go fight the battle of eliminating age requirements there. the most recent controversy is about a Chinese 14 yr old competing for gymnastics... I don't make the rules... someone else did... for a reason.The real question should be, why don't other states allow this rule, but Kentucky does? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted December 19, 2009 The real question should be, why don't other states allow this rule, but Kentucky does?Why don't other states (Countries) allow for the death penalty, but Kentucky does? Why? because we make rules to meet our needs not the needs of others. The answer is clear. The states we are talking about have a solid foothold in wrestling. And probably a good middle school and youth organizations. Ky still struggles with participation in wrestling in most of the schools in the state. Until this changes and wrestling becomes as popular as Football, Basketball Baseball or even soccer the need for middles schoolers on varsity teams will be needed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D1 Fan 9 Report post Posted December 20, 2009 My two cents... for what its worth... is that anything that encourages and builds the sport is a good thing. There were a few years where middle school students could wrestle high school matches, but couldn't wrestle in the regionals or state tournaments. At the same time, if these students wrestled in high school matches they couldn't wrestle in the middle school state... a catch 22 for these individuals. I thought this was wrong... if they are good enough to wrestle high school they should have a shot at high school state... which they changed for the 2001-2002 season. I do think however that if a wrestler wrestles high school they should not be permitted to wrestle in the middle school state. Another positive for allowing middle school wrestlers to wrestle in high school is that they help fill the lower weights... particularly 103. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LateralDrop 0 Report post Posted December 21, 2009 but then kentucky still allows smoking in restaurants as well... they truly do make the rules to fit their needs... :-o Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
