high school wrestlers popping back up in middel school

[mccc_wrestling 0]

now popping back up in middleschool wresling are three powerhouses soloman &samuel vanover and sam preston all three are showing themselfs at the highschool level preston wrestling this weekend in middleschool placeing first with out even trying and the vanover brothers are going to be wrestling 185 & 230 pounds and preston will be wrestling 165 pounds

preston is going to be at the state dules in hope of sending there very good team to a state championship with the 2 other great wrestlers they have jayce carr and matt hall

[WHS98 34]

You know thats ok if the kid has never won a middle school state championship,but if he  has what good is he getting out of a match he din't have to try in.Its either for his or his parents ego.I'd rather see my son lose a good close match to a good wrestler,than pin a bad wrestler quick.Neither wrestler gets anything out of it.I think that is when a kid should move up or travel out of state for better matches.It will only help him if he plans to further expand his wrestling skills.

[heavy83 15]

I agree with whs98 if a kid is wrestling all year at varsity level why go to lower competition other than for own or coaches egos. I always had pride for my team and school, did whatever i could to help. BUT, if i wrestled all year for my coach only to have to go a different class or not at all because above reason I would lose alot of respect for my coach and program. Because then it's all about winning and not about teaching and developing more young men about respect and dedication.

[refdad 3]

For those of you who disagree with a kid who wrestles varsity as a Middle schooler, then shows up and wins Middle School Regional and State, I have a situation for you. Suppose that a kid has no other kid in the middle school practice room to challenge or push him. What benefit is he going to get from being in that room every day.? Isn't the whole purpose of having a more advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity so that he can be exposed to better competition on a daily basis in the practice room as well as in tournaments and duals/tri meets? So rather than a kid wrestling middle school and going undefeated or maybe only loosing 1 or 2 matches throughout the year, he wrestles varsity and wins 60 or maybe even only 50% of his matches. Why should this kid not be able to compete for a Middle School State title just like every other middle school kid? Would you just prefer that he wrestle middle school all year and just dominate? To me, an advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity makes it better for everyone in the way that other kids are winning and placing at tournaments where otherwise they would not in the absence of the more advanced kid who is wrestling varsity. Also the more advanced kid continues to improve being exposed to better competition and being pushed harder so the level of wrestling in our state progresses rather than this kid just leveling off and not improving for a year being unchallenged.

[tc125 0]

the kids are in middle school. let them wrestle in middle school tournaments. this is like saying just because murton dominated almost everyone he wrestled, he shouldnt have been aloud to wrestle highschool, he should have had to wrestle at the college level.

[powerhalf 0]

For those of you who disagree with a kid who wrestles varsity as a Middle schooler, then shows up and wins Middle School Regional and State, I have a situation for you. Suppose that a kid has no other kid in the middle school practice room to challenge or push him. What benefit is he going to get from being in that room every day.? Isn't the whole purpose of having a more advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity so that he can be exposed to better competition on a daily basis in the practice room as well as in tournaments and duals/tri meets? So rather than a kid wrestling middle school and going undefeated or maybe only loosing 1 or 2 matches throughout the year, he wrestles varsity and wins 60 or maybe even only 50% of his matches. Why should this kid not be able to compete for a Middle School State title just like every other middle school kid? Would you just prefer that he wrestle middle school all year and just dominate? To me, an advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity makes it better for everyone in the way that other kids are winning and placing at tournaments where otherwise they would not in the absence of the more advanced kid who is wrestling varsity. Also the more advanced kid continues to improve being exposed to better competition and being pushed harder so the level of wrestling in our state progresses rather than this kid just leveling off and not improving for a year being unchallenged.

Exactly!  Well said.

[cougars_119 0]

For those of you who disagree with a kid who wrestles varsity as a Middle schooler, then shows up and wins Middle School Regional and State, I have a situation for you. Suppose that a kid has no other kid in the middle school practice room to challenge or push him. What benefit is he going to get from being in that room every day.? Isn't the whole purpose of having a more advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity so that he can be exposed to better competition on a daily basis in the practice room as well as in tournaments and duals/tri meets? So rather than a kid wrestling middle school and going undefeated or maybe only loosing 1 or 2 matches throughout the year, he wrestles varsity and wins 60 or maybe even only 50% of his matches. Why should this kid not be able to compete for a Middle School State title just like every other middle school kid? Would you just prefer that he wrestle middle school all year and just dominate? To me, an advanced middle school kid wrestling varsity makes it better for everyone in the way that other kids are winning and placing at tournaments where otherwise they would not in the absence of the more advanced kid who is wrestling varsity. Also the more advanced kid continues to improve being exposed to better competition and being pushed harder so the level of wrestling in our state progresses rather than this kid just leveling off and not improving for a year being unchallenged.

pretty much says it all.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Well, if you want your middle school son to get varsity exposure, then why would you have your son miss 2 varsity weekend tournaments in order to wrestle middle school region and state?

My son was varsity as a 7th and 8th grader. Neither his coach nor myself wanted him to miss out on varsity experience so he could go dominate other middle schoolers. Rather than attend middle school region and state, he wrestled 10 varsity matches in Ohio. Just like your beliefs about the importance of high school matches,  I choose the long term investment rather than send him to 2 middle school tournaments. Furthermore, he was part of the varsity team and the team expected his presence with them. I choose not to play both sides of the field. But, hey, that was just my preference. Others can do as they choose.

[WHS98 34]

I guess some of you didn't read my first statement.If the kid has not won a middle school championship I think he owes that to himself,but the statement I was referring to before mine was about a wrestler winning without even trying-then I think its time to move on.

[steve145 0]

Everyone has reasons for doing what they do.  And everyone likes to live a little box and think every situation is the same as their own. But the fact is, everyone makes decisions based on their own particular situation. I'm guessing the people against the best JH wrestlers being at State have an agenda of their own.

:cry:

[plee 0]

Everyone has reasons for doing what they do.  And everyone likes to live a little box and think every situation is the same as their own. But the fact is, everyone makes decisions based on their own particular situation. I'm guessing the people against the best JH wrestlers being at State have an agenda of their own.

:cry:

Good point.  This has been debated by the m.s. association in the past and rules were presented to prevent kids with certain # of varsity matches from wrestling m.s.  It should be up to the coaches & parents and based on what is best for the kid.  Besides, if your team wrestles out of state much aren't m.s. aged kids in our state prohibited from wrestling varsity in other states?

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Yes, in Ohio only 9th graders are allowed to wrestle. We adopted a, don't ask don't tell policy. Hey, it worked for us, I just wanted him to wrestle. No one questioned it.

[refdad 3]

[ I-pinned-em-all 

"Yes, in Ohio only 9th graders are allowed to wrestle. We adopted a, don't ask don't tell policy. Hey, it worked for us, I just wanted him to wrestle. No one questioned it. ......."

No thats not correct sir. Our coach got a ruling on this after our middle school kids were allowed to wrestle but not allowed to be counted for points at an Ohio team tournament this year. He contacted the OHSAA, and was told our middle school kids CAN IN FACT wrestle high school tournaments in Ohio because being a school or club from out of state OHSAA rule do not apply. Even 7th grade kids can wrestle varsity matches in Ohio. As you said you chose not to wrestle your son in the Region and State tournaments so that he could get 10 varsity matches in Ohio and i certainly respect that. I want my son as well as the level of wrestling for our state to improve but yet our coach and myself want him to be able to compete for a State Championship against other kids his own age, and the rules that are in place at this time allow that, so why so much negativity from others who disagree? I will say it again..This is withing the Middle School Associations Rules!

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Well, if you want your middle school son to get varsity exposure, then why would you have your son miss 2 varsity weekend tournaments in order to wrestle middle school region and state?

My son was varsity as a 7th and 8th grader. Neither his coach nor myself wanted him to miss out on varsity experience so he could go dominate other middle schoolers. Rather than attend middle school region and state, he wrestled 10 varsity matches in Ohio. Just like your beliefs about the importance of high school matches,  I choose the long term investment rather than send him to 2 middle school tournaments. Furthermore, he was part of the varsity team and the team expected his presence with them. I choose not to play both sides of the field. But, hey, that was just my preference. Others can do as they choose.

Chill out refdad, none of my comments were negative and certainly not judgemental of you. I will refer you to the last 2 sentences from my previous quote. I pasted my quote above for your convenience.

I was only providing meaningful dialogue and other opinions on this topic given my son was in a very similar situation.  This is what I choose best for my son, you chose what is best for your son. I wouldn't expect any loving father to do anything less. I never based my decisions what is best for my son on popularity and opinion poles, especially from people on this site.

As far as out-of-state middle schoolers being allowed to wrestle varsity in Ohio, at this time, I will respectfully disagree with your assumption. Your comments may be "factual", but they appear illogical to me. I will check myself and get back to you what I found out. A certified Ohio referee functioning under the state bylaws should be bound by those bylaws. I would assume their officiating insurance mandates they follow the Ohio rules. Ohio has chosen not to allow non high school kids to participate in varsity sports. If a ref knowingly officiated a non high school kid and the kid got hurt, they could be held liable. Remember, for a match to be officiated in Ohio at a sanctioned match, it would have to follow Ohio rules.

[refdad 3]

I-pinned-em-all;... your right in the fact that most of us love our kids and would go to great lengths to do what we feel is best for our children. I respect your opinion and in fact welcome it. Your comments specifically were not critical of our situation but as you said yourself, this site is full of negative comments directed toward kids and parents by people who happen to have a difference of opinion on a particular situation. Specifically, "holding kids back" as well as this subject. Bottom line for me is no matter how I  feel about something, right or wrong, if it is in line with the rules of any association (KHSAA or Middle School association or even youth) then people really should just accept it or show up at meetings and voice their opinion or contact your representative and do their part to get that particular rule changed rather than just spouting criticism.

As for the issue of middle schoolers wrestling varsity, as you said, it was the head official that would not allow our middle schoolers to be scored for team points and tagged their matches as "exhibition matches" but our head coach has an email from the OHSAA ,quoting rules stating that teams and or clubs that are not withing the state of Ohio do not fall under OHSAA rules therefore middle schoolers may wrestle varsity meets in Ohio. As you might suspect, our coach now carries this letter with him to every tournament we attend in Ohio.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Refdad, I just read the entire OSHAA rules. Rules 1-1-2, 1-5-1 and 1-5-2 speak specifically to the contrary to what you said. The bylaws specifically address practices, scrimages, etc. The bylaws are very specific and do apply to any activity sponsored by OSHAA. Even exhibition matches are specifically addressed.

Later in the bylaws it addresses what happens when an ineligible athlete is caught. The penalties for the coaches and refs are severe and can include financial penalties.

The head ref may have allowed it, but the written bylaws from OHSAA strictly prohibit exactly what we are talking about.

The only way a 7th and 8th grader is allowed to participate in a sponsored event, is if the athlete turned 15 on August 1st of the current year.

An eligible Ohio athlete is not permitted to wrestle an ineligible athlete even if they are out of state. The bylaws are very specific.

[refdad 3]

I-pinned-em-all:.. to that I can only say that you would most certainly expect that Hank Zaborniack who answered this question specifically himself and the OHSAA staff member who then forwarded this info to our coach to know what they are talking about.. In the mean time I will expect that the documentation that we have from the OHSAA will be enough to satisfy the officials at the events  we attend the remainder of this year.??? :|

[tiltfor3 20]

Indiana I thought had the same rule as Ohio. No middle schoolers in Indiana. Be sure to check if you cross the river that way.

[refdad 3]

tiltfor3... thanks for the warning, but I dont think we have anything scheduled in Indiana the remainder of this year. After this year, I personally wont have to worry about it, but dont want to see it be a problem in years to come for other kids on our team

[pioneer_pride 1]

refdad - you  have no idea how bad I want IPEA to be wrong on this.  Please find out he is wrong and post on here.  It would mean a great deal to me. 

Signed,

Your friend

[pioneer_pride 1]

There has to be some sort of reciprocity agreement between states that if a kid is eligible to compete in varsity in 1 bordering state, they can compete in out of state competition.  Otherwise, I would suspect a huge problem with Indiana's age eligibility requirement.  In Indiana, a kid is eligible to compete in a sport as long as they are not 20 prior to or on the date of that sport's state finals. 

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

There has to be some sort of reciprocity agreement between states that if a kid is eligible to compete in varsity in 1 bordering state, they can compete in out of state competition.  Otherwise, I would suspect a huge problem with Indiana's age eligibility requirement.  In Indiana, a kid is eligible to compete in a sport as long as they are not 20 prior to or on the date of that sport's state finals. 

Sorry pioneer_pride, but you should know me well enough by now to know I am seldom if ever wrong. I assure you, no letter allowing Kentucky middle wrestlers to participate in Ohio sanctioned varsity sports exists. Especially a letter from OHSAA, the bylaws specifically addresses the very topic of discussion. Nothing supercedes the bylaws.

[Ranger123 43]

Sorry pioneer_pride, but you should know me well enough by now to know I am seldom if ever wrong. I assure you, no letter allowing Kentucky middle wrestlers to participate in Ohio sanctioned varsity sports exists. Especially a letter from OHSAA, the bylaws specifically addresses the very topic of discussion. Nothing supercedes the bylaws.

Yeah, and it is really hard to imagine they would send a letter specifically stating you don't have to follow the bylaws.  I know any time I have asked Jullian Tackett a question like this he refuses to address it in writing.

[refdad 3]

pioneer pride; if the coach is willing to allow me to make a copy of what he has from Mr. Z and the OHSAA I will most certainly share it with you amd anyone one else who cares to see it

Signed,

Your friend

[pioneer_pride 1]

Sorry pioneer_pride, but you should know me well enough by now to know I am seldom if ever wrong. I assure you, no letter allowing Kentucky middle wrestlers to participate in Ohio sanctioned varsity sports exists. Especially a letter from OHSAA, the bylaws specifically addresses the very topic of discussion. Nothing supercedes the bylaws.

I know you never admit when you're wrong.  :evil: :evil:  I know refdad and his coach well enough to know they wouldn't make up something from the OHSAA that clears their m.s. varsity wrestler to compete in tourneys in Ohio.  If they say they have it, I don't doubt it.

So do you believe that if an out of state kid is not eligible by OHSAA bylaws, but they are eligible by KHSAA or IHSAA bylaws, that they can not compete in a tourney in Ohio?  That doesn't make sense to me.  How would the OHSAA even know if a kid is eligible?  What about an Indiana kid that turns 19 on January 1, 2008....and enters a tourney in Ohio (or Kentucky) in January?  He's eligible in Indiana, but he's too old in Ohio & Kentucky.

My younger brothers went through the same thing when they were in m.s., they were told they could not compete in Ohio varsity tourneys.  So I know coaches in Cincinnati believe this.  I'm just curious if they are misinformed on their bylaws.