Middle School Districts/Regional/State

[naplesme 58]

Why are we not having Districts this year? At the last meeting entries to the Regional tournament was limited to two wrestlers per weight class. That means some regions could have up to 24 wrestlers entered in a weight class in at regional. I thought one of the goals of middle school was to model the high school tournament. Why are we as middle school coaches concerned about the non-state sanctioned High School Duals? Middle School regionals are not being held a week before Middle School state because some teams are concerned with the conflict with High School duals. If we truly want to model high school we should have open districts on the weekend we now have Regionals, Regionals the next week- High School State Duals be danged, and then hold our state tournament. The top four from each district would qualify for regionals and the top four from each regional would qualify for state the guarantees you a 16-man state tournament where the five-match rule would most likely not apply.

[dscicle 6]

Why are we not having Districts this year? At the last meeting entries to the Regional tournament was limited to two wrestlers per weight class. That means some regions could have up to 24 wrestlers entered in a weight class in at regional. I thought one of the goals of middle school was to model the high school tournament. Why are we as middle school coaches concerned about the non-state sanctioned High School Duals? Middle School regionals are not being held a week before Middle School state because some teams are concerned with the conflict with High School duals. If we truly want to model high school we should have open districts on the weekend we now have Regionals, Regionals the next week- High School State Duals be danged, and then hold our state tournament. The top four from each district would qualify for regionals and the top four from each regional would qualify for state the guarantees you a 16-man state tournament where the five-match rule would most likely not apply.

so are you saying punish the kids who wrestle both middle and high school?!?!?!

[dagger 7]

What about the kids that won't get to wrestle because each school is only allowed to take two kids per weight class. I bet it will be there will be at least 50 middle school kids that won't get to wrestle at regionals this year and there will only be 5 to 10 middle school kids wrestle at state duals this year!!!!!! So who is getting punished?

I say if they want to wrestle for their high school team then that is what they should do and fore go their middle school career!!!!!!!!

[naplesme 58]

so are you saying punish the kids who wrestle both middle and high school?!?!?!

No, not at all. I

[eaglewrestler12 2]

      In my opinion, it's ridiculous for these middle school teams to be entering 2-4 kids in the same weight class at regionals. You're saying that you want to model it after the high school tourney? Well in high school each team is allowed 1 wrestler per weight class. I was a middle school wrestler last year and in my region there were a few teams that had 2-4 wrestlers in almost every bracket. There was even one team that had at least 2 wrestlers in every single bracket. This same team even had 4 wrestlers in one 16 man bracket.

     

      These same few teams were the top 4 teams in my region, because since they had so many wrestlers they could rack up points like crazy. Does that seem fair? If we want our middle school wrestlers to learn what it's like to wrestle in high school, we should allow 1 wrestler per weight at regions. The way the system is working now is just sending the wrong message. It's basically telling the kids that all you have to do is enter everybody and their brother in the tourney and your can win.

     

      My team was a smaller team with a great coach who sent 85% of our wrestlers to state even though most of them were very new to the sport, yet we had 2 wrestlers leave and join another club that was one of the teams i mentioned above. Both of these boys still attended my school who they previously wrestled for, yet they chose to wrestle on a different team. When I asked one of the guys why they left they told me "This teams wins more".

       

      This same kid failed to qualify for state while one of his old sparring partners whom he used to "manhandle" in practice did make it. But, yes this boy's team did in fact place higher than ours at regionals, once again because of their numbers.

       

        The point I'm trying to make is that if the goal is to make it like the high school system then do it. If you want to go to state then win a wrestle-off for your weight class, and then qualify. If you can't do that, then tough luck. Work harder so you can show the other wrestler on your team that that's your spot not his.

[NOHS_wrestling 1]

"We are giving them the best of both worlds the opportunity to earn a Middle School State Title and High School State Title in the same year. Isn

[dscicle 6]

I agree with NOHS_wrestling. I guarentee that Harrison Courtney, Pat Banks, and other wouldn't have had the knowledge and experience if they hadn't been allowed to wrestle high school as middle schoolers.

Also, just something to think about, some coaches coach both High School and Middle School. Are we going to make them choose between High School State Duals (if they qualify) or middle school regionals???

[Mathound 4]

We need to be concerned about getting the kids prepared for the next level. In high school, this means getting kids prepared for national competition and college. In middle school, this means getting kids prepared for *gasp* high school. Just like the first day you walk into a college wrestling room, everything you did in high school means nothing. The same goes for high school, once you're there... guess what, it doesn't matter if you were a middle school state champion.

Yes, it is certainly an achievement (and no one can take that achievement away), but what we need to be concerned about is getting everyone ready for the next level. There is no better way to be prepared for high school wrestling than wrestling in the high school line-up. Getting an 8th grader in there at state duals that could help your high school win that state championship is an AMAZING accomplishment for a middle school wrestler. That's your team that you will be with when you graduate high school and the team that will become your family for the next 4 years.

The state duals is not a made a title. If anything, I believe more people would say the middle school state champion title is much more of a "made up thing". The state duals have been around FAR FAR longer than the middle school state tournament. The state duals is a prestigious tournament whether it is sanctioned by the KHSAA or not.

[naplesme 58]

I guess the question becomes then do we want the sport to continue grow or continue to stagnant? If we want it to grow then having open districts, then regional

[three 9]

Follow high school?? It has been a while since high schools wrestled districts. There needs to be a limit on how many wrestlers are in a weight class from 1 school. Its better to have more schools involved. Follow high school?? How many wrestlers per weight class per school on varsity level? Exactly! the only schools that benefit from allowing more than 1 wrestler per class is the bigger programs.

    Which is better less schools at the State tournament or more schools?  Help wrestling grow and expand or just promote the same old bigger programs?

[naplesme 58]

three, you asked: Follow high school?? & Which is better less schools at the State tournament or more schools?  Help wrestling grow and expand or just promote the same old bigger programs?

We as middle school programs are not following high school now. If we were, there would be only one wrestler per weight class, per team, the regional tournament would be a week before the state tournament, which would still conflict with state duals, and the five-match rule would still be in effect. We would also not have the insane regional alignments that are in place now. For example Wayne County & Union County are in the same district, but McCreary County right next to Wayne is in a different district.

What's better is more teams period. Open districts allows for this to happen. The more opportunities kids have the more likely they are to want to participate, the more likely the sport grows.

Matthound said: We need to be concerned about getting the kids prepared for the next level.

I agree, but don

[BigCoach 3]

Interesting comments on here, some who make some good points and some that indicate some ignorance in this matter.  Plus I don't know how many times the same discussions take place at middle school coaches meeting every two years or so.  This is one of them.  Maybe I am a little touchy on this subject as well because I have had a small hand in helping to get middle school wrestling where it has evovled to today.  Anyway, here are my thoughts:

To anyone who says middle school wrestling is stagnant, well sorry but they are ignorant on this subject.  I can remember holding an OPEN MIDDLE SCHOOL STATE CHAMPIONSHIP in Campbell County just a few years ago.  We ran it on three mats in one day.  I don't know the exact numbers on how much it has grown over the past five years, but the growth is unbelievable.  I know, because I am the one who has been trying to come up with the realignment of the regions the past few years on the middle school level.

Second, the high school state dual title is not a made up title.  Again, I must say that is a statement made from ignorance.  If it were, then my question is why would all the top schools make sure an effort to get to Lexington every year to wrestle?  That title means a great deal.

Middle schoolers can help when it comes to high school state dual titles.  Last year we had four middle school wrestlers dress for the high school state duals.  Two got matches on that day.  All four of them are starters on our high school team this year, three of which are still in middle school.  All four will be getting a State Dual Championship Ring for dressing with the team last year as well.

Lack of middle school wrestling is NOT holding back our sport in this state.  Again, another comment made from ignorance.  The first and most major reason for the sport not growing by leaps and bounds is a lack of coaches.  Over the past four years I have talked to the superitendant from the county right beside us and he says he will start a wrestling program tomorrow if they could find a coach.  There is no one in Hart County to coach the sport.  That high school can't find a coach, it is not not having open districts that is keeping the sport from growing, but a lack of quality coaches.  All anyone has to do is go to any tournament and watch the wrestlers for a while and you know which teams have good fundamentally sound coaches who know the sport.  That is what is keeping the sport from growing, men who know the sport and are able to coach.

Finally, middle school wrestling is here to prepare the kids for high school wrestling, first and foremost.  If the middle school coaches association ever forgets that and starts to make decisions on what is best for it and not for high school, you will see a drop in teams.  A middle school team cannot exist without the high school coach helping out.  Many teams in this state are at small schools and those small schools count on the help from the high school coach.

I love winning and have won a few matches over the past few years at the middle school level, but guys, what you do in middle school means nothing.  No one will ever remember 5 years from now who was the team state champions or individual state champions, but when you win at the high school level, that is what the community and state doesn't soon forget. 

We do what we do to prepare the kids for the high school level and as such we must make decisions based upon what we feel is best in regards to the restrictions we work under.  There are only so many weekends in the year and some are used up with such trivial things as Christmas, and New Years and high school state dual championships.  Everything that middle school wrestling does, fits around those events.  Sorry, but that is the way it is and needs to be if we want to continue to see the phenominal growth in middle school wrestling like we have seen in the past five years!!

Eddie Paden

LaRue County Wrestling

[bulldog-leader 56]

This was somewhat interesting.

It is interesting how people view middle school wrestling. 

As a coach of a high school team (with no middle school team) and a parent on another schools team.

I think I can see both views because my team (Holmes) has no middle school team and any middle school wrestler that comes out for the team must wrestle varsity or not wrestle at all.  If I were to take the middle school team then my high school team would not be able to wrestle that weekend. My son also wrestles for Campbell Co. middle school.  One of those large teams.

This is how I view things.

1.  Middle school teams are there to feed the high school teams. 

2.  The reason Middle school teams have been successful is because of the opportunity to wrestle.

3.  Without open regional tournaments then less get opportunity to wrestle.

4.  If you try to hold District, Regional then state you will have a hard time finding gym time and spectators will dwindle because most are watching high school events such as the state duals.

There is no way you can have the state duals as the only event able to wrestle on that weekend.  Those schools that will never qualify will be out one week of the season. This will lead to the rich getting richer again.  Plus some schools do not accept the invitation to the state duals because they have other tournaments that they prefer to wrestle in. 

Bottom line:  Middle school wrestling has grown extremely fast.  Without the help of the high school coaches and parents this would not have happened.  If you start pulling away from the high school you will loose this support and middle school wrestling will fail. 

The only thing i think that needs to be changed for the middle school wrestling is the clubs.  I have never truly understood the reason for clubs.  If middle school wrestling is a feeder for high school why do we need clubs?  They feed no school.

From what I have seen the use of clubs have caused more grief then is needed.  The complaints of kids leaving a school team for a club ect. ect.  This is exactly what the high schools are trying to clear up with Proposal 2. 

[ubtappin 1]

Interesting comments on here, some who make some good points and some that indicate some ignorance in this matter.  Plus I don't know how many times the same discussions take place at middle school coaches meeting every two years or so.  This is one of them.  Maybe I am a little touchy on this subject as well because I have had a small hand in helping to get middle school wrestling where it has evovled to today.  Anyway, here are my thoughts:

To anyone who says middle school wrestling is stagnant, well sorry but they are ignorant on this subject.  I can remember holding an OPEN MIDDLE SCHOOL STATE CHAMPIONSHIP in Campbell County just a few years ago.  We ran it on three mats in one day.  I don't know the exact numbers on how much it has grown over the past five years, but the growth is unbelievable.  I know, because I am the one who has been trying to come up with the realignment of the regions the past few years on the middle school level.

Second, the high school state dual title is not a made up title.  Again, I must say that is a statement made from ignorance.  If it were, then my question is why would all the top schools make sure an effort to get to Lexington every year to wrestle?  That title means a great deal.

Middle schoolers can help when it comes to high school state dual titles.  Last year we had four middle school wrestlers dress for the high school state duals.  Two got matches on that day.  All four of them are starters on our high school team this year, three of which are still in middle school.  All four will be getting a State Dual Championship Ring for dressing with the team last year as well.

Lack of middle school wrestling is NOT holding back our sport in this state.  Again, another comment made from ignorance.  The first and most major reason for the sport not growing by leaps and bounds is a lack of coaches.  Over the past four years I have talked to the superitendant from the county right beside us and he says he will start a wrestling program tomorrow if they could find a coach.  There is no one in Hart County to coach the sport.  That high school can't find a coach, it is not not having open districts that is keeping the sport from growing, but a lack of quality coaches.  All anyone has to do is go to any tournament and watch the wrestlers for a while and you know which teams have good fundamentally sound coaches who know the sport.  That is what is keeping the sport from growing, men who know the sport and are able to coach.

Finally, middle school wrestling is here to prepare the kids for high school wrestling, first and foremost.  If the middle school coaches association ever forgets that and starts to make decisions on what is best for it and not for high school, you will see a drop in teams.  A middle school team cannot exist without the high school coach helping out.  Many teams in this state are at small schools and those small schools count on the help from the high school coach.

I love winning and have won a few matches over the past few years at the middle school level, but guys, what you do in middle school means nothing.  No one will ever remember 5 years from now who was the team state champions or individual state champions, but when you win at the high school level, that is what the community and state doesn't soon forget. 

We do what we do to prepare the kids for the high school level and as such we must make decisions based upon what we feel is best in regards to the restrictions we work under.  There are only so many weekends in the year and some are used up with such trivial things as Christmas, and New Years and high school state dual championships.  Everything that middle school wrestling does, fits around those events.  Sorry, but that is the way it is and needs to be if we want to continue to see the phenominal growth in middle school wrestling like we have seen in the past five years!!

Eddie Paden

LaRue County Wrestling

You're right, I can't even remember who won Middle School State last year.

[plee 0]

The only thing i think that needs to be changed for the middle school wrestling is the clubs.  I have never truly understood the reason for clubs.  If middle school wrestling is a feeder for high school why do we need clubs?  They feed no school.

From what I have seen the use of clubs have caused more grief then is needed.  The complaints of kids leaving a school team for a club ect. ect.   This is exactly what the high schools are trying to clear up with Proposal 2. 

I don't know if clubs are "needed".  I think they are, but without clubs, some high schools would not be able to have a feeder program.  For example, at Conner Middle school, we were allowed to start a m.s. wrestling club, but not a school sponsored team.  Our flyers had to be approved by the board of education, and that was the fist thing that had to be removed.  It had to be a club.  If clubs were not allowed, that would have been 1 less wrestling opportunity in this state.

As far as this whole thread goes, these things have been discussed extensively at the coaches meetings.  BigCoach is the MAN with the plan as far as this stuff goes.  He knows what he is talking about here.  

I've always viewed middle school wrestling as this: an opportunity for middle school kids to compete at a level that they can compete & learn at that is appropriate for them.  If an 8th grade kid is good enough to compete at h.s., not just fill a weight class and avoid a forfeit, let him compete at state duals or whatever.  That's a h.s. coach's call.  But if he's just filling an empty weight class, and getting creamed..that doesn't do the kid any good, and that's bad coaching in my opinion.  Middle school events should try to avoid the main h.s. events, because they can.  There might be a day where some conflicts are unavoidable...but i don't think we're there yet.

[plee 0]

You're right, I can't even remember who won Middle School State last year.

:lol:

you walked right into that Eddie!

[three 9]

You forgot one of the ignorance abuses! And that is the ignorance of plusses and minuses. If a bigger program takes more than one spot at a weight class then that equals a minus on the number of schools that get to particapate.  Dang , now we are all ignorant.

[dagger 7]

You are wrong about districts. We haven't had Regionals in high school for a while they did away with regionals and changed districts to regional. So accually high school has districts and then state.

[three 9]

You are wrong about districts. We haven't had Regionals in high school for a while they did away with regionals and changed districts to regional. So accually high school has districts and then state.

  I understand where you are coming from but , LOL, I do believe  that they call it  the Regional Tournaments.

[sting 2]

I agree with big coach, it is all about fielding the best high school team that you can. But the problem, in my opinion is that if you want these kids to wrestle for the high school as 7th and 8th graders then don't bring them back to the middle school level to compete.  Seems we are trying to run the middle school program around the high school program for this reason only.

[bulldog-leader 56]

I agree with big coach, it is all about fielding the best high school team that you can. But the problem, in my opinion is that if you want these kids to wrestle for the high school as 7th and 8th graders then don't bring them back to the middle school level to compete.  Seems we are trying to run the middle school program around the high school program for this reason only.

Why is this such a problem? 

    Take my situation for example.  I have 7 wrestlers on my entire high school team.  2 jr, 3 soph 1 fresh, and 1 8th grader. 

    If my 8th grader does not wrestle in the high school varsity tournaments then he will not get to wrestle at all.  I am however working towards entering him into the middle school regional tournament.  After getting his head beat in every weekend he will finally get to wrestle kids his own age and wt.

    Don't give me this holier than thou attitude about keeping kids on the varsity level or JV level or middle school level.  Only the larger programs have this luxury.  When you are in the situation that our program is in, and I believe there are several more in the same situation.  This is the only way to get these young kids on the mat.  Don't deny them the chance to wrestle and be successful with kids their own age because you think that your team may loose the regional tournament because of kids like these.  Middle school competition is not about campionships or team placement in events.  Its about getting these kids interested in wrestling so they will continue to wrestle when they get in high school.  Kentucky was on the verge of loosing wrestling as a KHSAA sport at one time.  We have made a great recovery, much of this has to do with middle school wrestling.  Don't ruin this because of some bias toward smaller programs that can't field middle school teams and must have middle schoolers fill wt. classes.  Continue to allow these kids to wrestle and maybe these programs can grow also. 

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Excellent point Bulldog leader. Anyone intimidated by their middle school child or wrestler wrestling another middle school child, should pull their kid out of this sport. So, if someone's little junior is a middle school state champ, are they the champ of all middle school wrestlers, or simply the champ of the kids not good enough to wrestle varsity? "champ of the best", or  "champ of the worst"

[oldgrappler 9]

Why is this such a problem? 

     Take my situation for example.  I have 7 wrestlers on my entire high school team.  2 jr, 3 soph 1 fresh, and 1 8th grader. 

     If my 8th grader does not wrestle in the high school varsity tournaments then he will not get to wrestle at all.  I am however working towards entering him into the middle school regional tournament.  After getting his head beat in every weekend he will finally get to wrestle kids his own age and wt.

     Don't give me this holier than thou attitude about keeping kids on the varsity level or JV level or middle school level.  Only the larger programs have this luxury.  When you are in the situation that our program is in, and I believe there are several more in the same situation.  This is the only way to get these young kids on the mat.  Don't deny them the chance to wrestle and be successful with kids their own age because you think that your team may loose the regional tournament because of kids like these.  Middle school competition is not about campionships or team placement in events.  Its about getting these kids interested in wrestling so they will continue to wrestle when they get in high school.  Kentucky was on the verge of loosing wrestling as a KHSAA sport at one time.  We have made a great recovery, much of this has to do with middle school wrestling.  Don't ruin this because of some bias toward smaller programs that can't field middle school teams and must have middle schoolers fill wt. classes.  Continue to allow these kids to wrestle and maybe these programs can grow also. 

Well said, Bulldog-leader.  The objective should be to have as many opportunites as possible for every kid who wants to wrestle.  If the middle school and elementary governing bodies impose more restrictions on who can compete, this will only restrict the growth of the sport in our state.  

[dagger 7]

One way to allow every wrestler to participate in their region tourney is to have single elimination  in the pig tail  round if there is one and the round of sixteen. This would allow everyone to wrestle and the tourney would run even faster. There is no sure fire way to make every one happy because some people wouldn't like the fact that a kid would only get one match but its better than no matches.