REscalera 189 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 MLee--- you comment about why not let them enjoy the spot light. That's exactly what 15 other parents in your sons youth bracket are saying. Hey your son placed 4th at middle school state. Of course he's going to win this bracket. Why not let some other kids get a chance to enjoy the spot light. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Raider Coach----if your youth wrestler placed in the top 4 at middle school state and wishes he hadn't so that he could've wrestled in the youth tournament then I see a problem with that. Maybe too much of a focus on winning and not really seeing the big picture. I hope that you, as his coach, helped him see the folly in that. I think you are missing the point....its not what I want for any of these kids, or what you want, or what anyone in the association wants, its what the kids want! Has anyone actually asked these kids if they would have liked to wrestle in the youth tournament? I have, and all of the ones I asked wished they could wrestle in that tournament. Does that mean they would trade their middle school placing to wrestle in the youth state? Absolulely not. Obviously it is a greater achievement to place in middle school as a youth than it is to win or place at the youth tournament. It has nothing to do with winning or losing to me. I just don't like taking the opportunity for a kid to compete, under any circumstances, when he/she has earned it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REscalera 189 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Raider coach---as for your 29 kids in rangers rankings comment. That's awesome. These are the type of things that happen when a state begins to grow. KY wrestling is no longer a sport where these older kids can take off during the offseason and come season win because they're older and stronger. Our younger kids are working all year and setting the pace. Give it a few years and like other highly competitive wrestling states the youth wrestlers won't be competing in middle school. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 But, the majority of 7th graders are hence the overlap. The overlap doesn't matter.....every middle school aged kid is elgible to wrestle in high school. Yet only a small percentage of them are successful. That has everything to do with the weight classes and nothing else. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marriedtothemat 13 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 The overlap doesn't matter.....every middle school aged kid is elgible to wrestle in high school. Yet only a small percentage of them are successful. That has everything to do with the weight classes and nothing else. Yes but high school freshman are not eligible to wrestle in middle school competitions even if they are of age!!!!! Why? Because they are not in middle school. 7th & 8th graders are not in elementary school and therefore should not be allowed to wrestle in youth tournaments. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sbfraz 8 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 The overlap doesn't matter.....every middle school aged kid is elgible to wrestle in high school. Yet only a small percentage of them are successful. That has everything to do with the weight classes and nothing else. 6th graders are not. My son is a Middle schooler and only weighed 66 pounds at MS state after eating breakfast and drinking an entire bottle of water. There are MS kids who weigh 70. You will see more of them as wrestling grows in KY. There are plenty of MS 70 pounders in Indiana and Iowa. It's great that KY wrestling is experiencing growing pains. And, I did ask my son about youth state last year and this year. He had no desire to compete in it. We were in Iowa this year and went to Indy Nationals last year. He understands that those events will help him reach his goals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REscalera 189 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Raider Coach----my point exactly. At least from an earlier post. That's where we as adults/coaches help them understand and keep things in perspective. Of course the kid wants and why not. Heck, take him to the AAU Spring Nationals if feel good is what you're after. Otherwise, bring him to KY team trials and let him beat the youth state champs at his weight and let him see why he didn't need to wrestle youth state. Yeah, right sbfraz. How big was that bottle? . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLee 68 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Please don't assume my opinions are based around the thoughts of my son. He didn't want to wrestle in the youth tournament. I voted against it before he even wrestled a MS match years ago. I explained why I don't like the rule. I believe my points are valid. If you don't agree, no biggie. Obviously you are in majority because it got voted that way. As mentioned not a shred of evidence to support how it improves #'s, which is one of the reasons people voted for it. If I recall, 1 kid who was the MVW of MS State showed up at the Youth tournament and everyone freaked. I've had MS placers decide not to wrestle before the rule was implemented. I've also had a kid that wanted to wrestle in it because he had a goal to win 6 or 7 youth titles, but couldn't. It didn't sit right with me that a bunch of adults w/ agendas prohibited him from achieving his goal, as silly as that goal may seem to some. In the end, there are more important issues that needs to be addressed in our state. It's a dead issue to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Yes but high school freshman are not eligible to wrestle in middle school competitions even if they are of age!!!!! Why? Because they are not in middle school. 7th & 8th graders are not in elementary school and therefore should not be allowed to wrestle in youth tournaments. Youth is done by age...not grade. High school and middle school are done by grade. There is a high percentage of kids that are youth aged that successfully compete in middle school, particularly at the lightest weight classes. Why is this? People on here are claiming that you can't compare youth to middle based on the fact that there aren't as many successful middle school kids competing in high school as there are youth aged kids competing in middle school. My point is that the difference in success has everything to do with the weight classes and nothing else. It goes back to my original point about not allowing youth kids that place at middle school to compete at youth state. With such a high percentatge of youth aged kids successfully competing at middle school state at these lower weights, why punish those kids by not allowing them to compete at youth. It makes no sense. You have 3 weight classes that are practically filled with youth aged wrestlers competing at middle school. These are some of our best youth wrestlers. Yet because of some silly rule that shouldn't be applicable to those weights, none of these placers can compete. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REscalera 189 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 My apologies MLee. Please forgive me for assuming. What at arse am I. . Darn my dad taught me better than that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLee 68 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Ha, no need to apologize. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JCB0577 17 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Geez, You guys are too serious about who should wrestle, and who should not. I thought that we all were in the position to get any and every kid on the mat. What is a youth state champ any way??? My son has won elementary school state 6 times, since kindergarten, he is in the 5th grade now. If he is good enough he will wrestle middle school again next year. This year he wrestled 8th graders that were either state champs or ranked in the top 5 in the state at his weight class. It is about what he learned while wrestling these kids, not his wins or loses. It is what it is, either train hard on the off season or take your lumps. We took our lumps and we are better for it. Don't bitch about my kid wrestled a 7th grader at the youth state, because your kid will be a 7th grader sooner or later and he will be doing the same. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluesdad 73 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 My son must be in the minority. The first thing he said when he came off the may after he won his match to get into the 3rd 4th place match was "I don't have to wrestle youth now". I'd say a lot of it was because he was tickled that he was assured of placing top 4 in middle school as a 5th grader. But he really didn't want to wrestle youth state any longer. He won state 4 years in a row and he knows he has nothing else to accomplish in youth in Ky. The only youth match he has lost in Ky was to M.Lees boy when he was 5 I believe years old. I think youth should be for the kids that are youth level wrestlers. If a youth kid places top 4 in middle school they shouldn't be wrestling in youth state regardless of age just my opinion. Sure I would've loved for Blue to have won his 5th straight youth state championship. But he knows placing top 4 in MS in a greater accomplishment then winning a youth championship. I know I had one dad (hiskid is youth age also) on my MS team ask what I was going to do if Blue was in a situation were he could wrestle in a match to get to the 3-4 place match. I said he will wrestle it and I hope he wins. He went nuts saying he wouldn't he eligible for youth state. I said why would I even consider letting him not wrestle in that match. If he can place top 4 in MS that is a better accomplishment then youth state. He disagreed with me and said if my son is in that situation I wouldn't let him wrestle so he could wrestle youth. So some people are nuts and think a youth championship is greater than placing top 4 MS. Crazy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jbrown1405 11 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Of the 29 kids in Ranger's rankings at 106, only 5 are in middle school. Obviously, there is a much higher percentage of youth aged kids wrestling at the lowest weights at middle school. How many 4th graders are ranked. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 How many 4th graders are ranked. Not sure. What does that matter? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris Duke 284 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Guys - you do understand that if you took the 70-86 weight classes at middle school, the majority are youth aged? These are essentially weight classes filled with YOUTH wrestlers. We would have seen many rematches at youth state that we saw at middle. We aren't talking about some Livingston Merrit type who is a 130lb youth kid placing at middle school state. Basically, all we have done with this rule is cut off our best, most experienced, and most competitive weight classes from the youth state tournament for no reason. I am baffled that so many act as if we are doing something good with this. We have accomplished nothing but removed our best youth kids from the state tournament. We aren't protecting anyone, helping growth, or whatever else you have convinced yourselves this accomplished. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy because you feel good about giving some other kids some medals, then fine. But please don't act as if this has had or will have any positive affect on our state's growth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 You're right Duke...we've beaten the dead horse relentlessly on this today. I now must force myself away from the vortex. Good night fellas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REscalera 189 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Raiders Coach-- evidently it has had a positive impact on our youth wrestlers. As you stated, so many of them are beating the older kids. The older kids see that cutting down for state is no longer an advantage. The younger kids are working harder year round and have caught up. Let's hope that we, as a state, can continue this trend. Before you know it, our middle school will be so competitive that we won't have this conversation because youth will have to wrestle youth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dutch 178 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 This is entertaining to read. My feeling has always been the same. I believe you leave it up to the kid and his parents if he wants to wrestle youth state. We can spin it anyway people want to, but here's the reality of restricting a kid based on his performance. Think about the kid that placed at middle school. He probably worked his tail off to make that happen. Now a week later the kid has an opportunity to wrestle kids the same age and weight. It doesn't get anymore fair than that. Considering chances are the same kid just wrestled older kids at middle school state. So now that kid has an opportunity to have a level playing field and we are going to tell him "sorry kid your to good". I say reward hard work and leave the choice up to them. Chances are if a kid is that good they are trying to get as much mat time as possible. So the parent that takes that kid all over the place to wrestle is excluded. I think it's crazy. I say those kids should be rewarded and not discriminated against for the fruits of their labor. I also believe that if a middle school wrestler can win a spot in the line up on his high school team. He should be able to compete. I read all the time about trying to catch ky up to other states. It will never happen if we want to shelter kids from competition. It all works in cycles. Older kids move on and now that younger kid has his opportunity to shine. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zaniac 11 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 This is entertaining to read. My feeling has always been the same. I believe you leave it up to the kid and his parents if he wants to wrestle youth state. We can spin it anyway people want to, but here's the reality of restricting a kid based on his performance. Think about the kid that placed at middle school. He probably worked his tail off to make that happen. Now a week later the kid has an opportunity to wrestle kids the same age and weight. It doesn't get anymore fair than that. Considering chances are the same kid just wrestled older kids at middle school state. So now that kid has an opportunity to have a level playing field and we are going to tell him "sorry kid your to good". I say reward hard work and leave the choice up to them. Chances are if a kid is that good they are trying to get as much mat time as possible. So the parent that takes that kid all over the place to wrestle is excluded. I think it's crazy. I say those kids should be rewarded and not discriminated against for the fruits of their labor. I also believe that if a middle school wrestler can win a spot in the line up on his high school team. He should be able to compete. I read all the time about trying to catch ky up to other states. It will never happen if we want to shelter kids from competition. It all works in cycles. Older kids move on and now that younger kid has his opportunity to shine. what he said 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gameface 253 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 This is entertaining to read. My feeling has always been the same. I believe you leave it up to the kid and his parents if he wants to wrestle youth state. We can spin it anyway people want to, but here's the reality of restricting a kid based on his performance. Think about the kid that placed at middle school. He probably worked his tail off to make that happen. Now a week later the kid has an opportunity to wrestle kids the same age and weight. It doesn't get anymore fair than that. Considering chances are the same kid just wrestled older kids at middle school state. So now that kid has an opportunity to have a level playing field and we are going to tell him "sorry kid your to good". I say reward hard work and leave the choice up to them. Chances are if a kid is that good they are trying to get as much mat time as possible. So the parent that takes that kid all over the place to wrestle is excluded. I think it's crazy. I say those kids should be rewarded and not discriminated against for the fruits of their labor. I also believe that if a middle school wrestler can win a spot in the line up on his high school team. He should be able to compete. I read all the time about trying to catch ky up to other states. It will never happen if we want to shelter kids from competition. It all works in cycles. Older kids move on and now that younger kid has his opportunity to shine. I agree with Dutch and RaiderCoach. I also voted against the change. I felt it was up to the kids and parents. Plain and simple. If you didn't want your kid to wrestle, that's your choice. Keep in mind , their still kids. I seen a few 5th graders that wrestled great at MS state and placed too 4. The same kids that beat them thru the year but didn't wrestle as good that day were wrestling at Youth State. The 70lb weight class was full of crazy good kids. Top 10 on Rangers list shuffled all around. 8 beat 3, 4 beat 1, 9 beat 3.(just an example Their all great and can beat each other on any given day. We are blessed to have such good kids! IMO of course Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REscalera 189 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Dutch---you make a lot of good points but I would have to disagree with the mat time statement. As much as mat time matters I believe quality mat time is much more important than mat time itself. Also, if the kids parent(s) take them all over the place I am sure they would have found Indy or Liberty Nationals as better mat time that same weekend then KY youth state. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Dutch---you make a lot of good points but I would have to disagree with the mat time statement. As much as mat time matters I believe quality mat time is much more important than mat time itself. Also, if the kids parent(s) take them all over the place I am sure they would have found Indy or Liberty Nationals as better mat time that same weekend then KY youth state. So you would recommend our best youth wrestlers to compete at an out-of-state tournament versus competing at youth state? That would be like encouraging Austin Myers to just skip high school state to get some better mat time. Our state championship should be the ONE tournament during the season that all of our best wrestlers should be exicted to compete at for the competition and to represent their state. I don't see how it could possibly benefit Kentucky wrestling to have our best skip that tournament to go Missouri. There are plenty of great tournaments they can attend practically every other weekend of the year to get good mat time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLee 68 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 But is that what we want? Do we want our top kids to shun our youth state tournament? I don't see how this helps our #'s. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
