middle school state seeding meeting

[uk_rebel33 4]

If seeding is not needed or not important why do we ever do it. Or at early season tournaments when we don't seed coaches always complain when the best kids wrestle early. By the way that affects team scoring too.

I'm just not the great concern. If you think the random draw is fine then how does seeding hurt you? It doesn't. Yes it required some extra time and effort. If you don't think it is worth it them don't participate. Pretend we are randomly drawing the bracket and move on.

Let's look at a situation. Not that we have kids at this level, but let's consider the possibility that Brock Ervin and Sean Fausz both stayed at 138. Would that be an amazing highlight match for the state finals or what? Under the spotlight. Two of the best of our generation. With a random draw they can wrestle in the quarters. Does that make sense? Does that build excitement for Saturday night in Lexington? Again we don't have anything on that level, but the state tournament is about much more than crowning a state champion. Getting into the finals is a big deal. There will always be big upsets in every tournament. That doesn't mean we should just ignore the fact that after the #1 other kids have earned their consideration as well.

How do you seed a wrestler who has dropped a weight class for post season and has not wrestled that class all year?  For example your 86lber who dropped to 80.  (I'll leave names out as someone mentioned earlier).  He is one of my favorite wrestlers to watch and is a great kid.  Beats my son everytime.  He probably wins that first place medal every weekend and thows it on the floor of his room because it doesn't mean a thing to him...he just wants to compete.  Great kid.

 

He placed last year, but I'm not sure if he has a head to head match with anyone other who he wrestled in districts.  Obviously IMO he should be the top #1 or at least the second #1, but how do you seed him?

 

I think most of the confusion is a lack of understanding of how the process works and people not involved just assume the NKY mafia is working toward world domination.

 

No doubt people respect you and value your opinion.  The sport is better because of you and the things you have done.  Don't let our ignorance discourage the work you are doing.

[Ranger123 43]

I've asked a ton of hs coaches why they won't do it. Clear and simple answer is it is too hard and the coaches can't agree on anything. I give 100% credit to the coaches involved Monday night for doing that "hard work" and giving up their limited free time to get it done. Were all of the coaches happy with where their kids fell? No way. But all professionally addressed the questions and we all worked through the issues very well. I was very impressed with our coaches. And as hard as some of us have been on bluesdad Johnson county didn't throw a fit with that result. Talked through the criteria and asked questions to understand but no major issues.

[MLee 68]

MLee-  just out of curiosity, what makes this the "right" way?

 

What classifies "Right"? If this is the "Right" way why doesn't more follow this pattern? No way only KY can be ahead of the pack

Let me ask you, would you be ok with throwing all the qualifiers in and hat and "randomly" draw matches...regardless of what they placed in the regionals?

[Ranger123 43]

How do you seed a wrestler who has dropped a weight class for post season and has not wrestled that class all year? For example your 86lber who dropped to 80. (I'll leave names out as someone mentioned earlier). He is one of my favorite wrestlers to watch and is a great kid. Beats my son everytime. He probably wins that first place medal every weekend and thows it on the floor of his room because it doesn't mean a thing to him...he just wants to compete. Great kid.

He placed last year, but I'm not sure if he has a head to head match with anyone other who he wrestled in districts. Obviously IMO he should be the top #1 or at least the second #1, but how do you seed him?

I think most of the confusion is a lack of understanding of how the process works and people not involved just assume the NKY mafia is working toward world domination.

No doubt people respect you and value your opinion. The sport is better because of you and the things you have done. Don't let our ignorance discourage the work you are doing.

Very good example. He actually got the 3rd #1. Yes I think he is potentially the best kid there. But as you mention when kids move weights it creates issues. But I think we don't give our coaches enough credit sometimes. We talked through their finishes and agreed upon a deciding criteria. We didn't come out where I would have liked but it was fair and I can live with it.

[8798 45]

Ranger123...thankfully you have some gracious and accommodating coaches with whom you are able to work.  Sadly, it is not always that way.

[NighthawkWrestling 11]

MLee- The competitor in me say's who cares. However, I'm not an idiot and no way that is that the right way to do it.  I saw no problem with the old format whosoever. I didn't see how changing and now seeding the number one seeds improved the state tournament in any way. If this is the "right" way to do it then why haven't others adopted this same format.

 

I'm under a new screen name now but you and I have agreed on an awful lot in the past so I'm not attacking you, I understand your passion and want further insight. My opinion though, which doesn't count for much, I don't see this as a win for anyone other than the coaches involved. I see it as a way to get your kid away from another kid, and the chicken*&$^ of that aggravates me. Again I got at least a solid ten years before my little one is wrestling at the state tournament and when my kid wrestles I would like to see the organization growing and becoming better for the kids involved. 

To my knowledge they don't seed NHSCA, FILA, or any of the Cliff Keen tournaments. If you draw a stud in your first match so be it, come back and get third right?

[bigshow78 1]

I should clarify what I ment when I said I like a blind draw. Have four pools your #1s your number#2s your #3s and your #4s. Draw a #1 out draw#2 out #3 out then draw a #4 out. That would be the first quater of the bracket. Then repeat the process till the bracket was complete. Could a #1 and a #2 from the same region end up facing each other yes but that would be luck of the draw.

[dutch 178]

I personally like the fact that Ranger led the charge to keep evolving our middle school wrestling.  I think a lot of people have make some valid points.  I like the fact that people are willing to attempt to make changes.  No matter what changes are made or not made not everyone will be happy.  That is why their is state association meetings to take a vote.

    As far as the seeding itself it will never be perfect here in Ky or any other state.  However I think the majority of people like the process of trying to put the top kids on opposite sides of the bracket.  As long as I have been going to tournaments the brackets have always been a topic of discussion.  If I had a choice of blind draw vs. seeding I would have to go seeding.  The point I made on the my last post is that seeding is not always perfect and calling out people for teaming up to get what they want is silly.  There is no conspiracy theory.   There are to many variables that make it 100% accurate.  I would have to imagine that most of the coaches that voted feel like they got it right.  I say most.  No matter what seed those top 16 kids in each weight are I can assure you they can all wrestle.  They had to work their tails off just to have the honor to be in the state tournament.  

    I say keep moving forward with the willingness to change.  Im sure we will make mistakes but as a whole we can probably do some amazing things to make this sport grow.  Finally I say come to the meetings and meet face to face with the ideas that are so easily typed on a public forum.  Participation is the key to growth. 

[Keepyourheadup 10]

What a great question bigshow78. I would like to here a response to that. I believe seeding is to ensure that the best teams are able to get the most team points to contend for the team title. I don't think it benefits the individuals in the bracket, just team points.

really I swear I think I can remember last year at the HS state tourney everyone complaining that the #1 171 lbs we had to wrestle Lane Jones in the 2nd round and got beat. That they shouldn't of ever met that early in the tourney that they should seed the tourney

[MLee 68]

MLee- The competitor in me say's who cares. However, I'm not an idiot and no way that is that the right way to do it.  I saw no problem with the old format whosoever. I didn't see how changing and now seeding the number one seeds improved the state tournament in any way. If this is the "right" way to do it then why haven't others adopted this same format.

 

I'm under a new screen name now but you and I have agreed on an awful lot in the past so I'm not attacking you, I understand your passion and want further insight. My opinion though, which doesn't count for much, I don't see this as a win for anyone other than the coaches involved. I see it as a way to get your kid away from another kid, and the chicken*&$^ of that aggravates me. Again I got at least a solid ten years before my little one is wrestling at the state tournament and when my kid wrestles I would like to see the organization growing and becoming better for the kids involved. 

To my knowledge they don't seed NHSCA, FILA, or any of the Cliff Keen tournaments. If you draw a stud in your first match so be it, come back and get third right?

 

MLee- The competitor in me say's who cares. However, I'm not an idiot and no way that is that the right way to do it.  I saw no problem with the old format whosoever. I didn't see how changing and now seeding the number one seeds improved the state tournament in any way. If this is the "right" way to do it then why haven't others adopted this same format.

 

I'm under a new screen name now but you and I have agreed on an awful lot in the past so I'm not attacking you, I understand your passion and want further insight. My opinion though, which doesn't count for much, I don't see this as a win for anyone other than the coaches involved. I see it as a way to get your kid away from another kid, and the chicken*&$^ of that aggravates me. Again I got at least a solid ten years before my little one is wrestling at the state tournament and when my kid wrestles I would like to see the organization growing and becoming better for the kids involved. 

To my knowledge they don't seed NHSCA, FILA, or any of the Cliff Keen tournaments. If you draw a stud in your first match so be it, come back and get third right?

I know you're not attacking me.  No biggie. 

 

My point is though, if you agree with the previous format (1 vs 4, 2 vs 3/ blind draw), then you agree to some level of "seeding."  All the coaches and association did by seeding the Regional champs is take it one step further from where we were.  They are trying to prevent the 2 best kids from facing each other before the finals.  My guess is most states don't attempt this because of the workload.  The wrestlers still have to show up and wrestle!  I guarantee there will still be numerous upsets!  It is not exactly the same, but its very similar to numerous events: NCAA's basketball and wrestling, NBA, NHL, Tennis, etc., NFL.   

 

At the end of the day, I believe most (if not all) participants, parents, and coaches would rather see a Fausz and Ervin match in the finals, not the semis...and certainly not the quarter finals.  The seeding process ensures that would at least be a possibility. 

[J.W. 21]

The seedings are fine.  They seeded region champions 1 through 4.  

 

There is a kid that took third in his region that has beaten every other region champion.  He is not seeded.  Head to head has proven his ability but he did not at his own region tournament.  Oh well.  His job to wrestle through now.  

 

As Dutch said in an earlier post, seed them but they still have to wrestle.  My kids have wrestled in Georgia, Ohio, West Virginia this year also, but they still managed to wrestle the majority of the kids in their weight class in the state of Kentucky.  Make out of state an exception, not a rule and you will get your match-ups. 

 

Referring to last years state to get your 140 seeded but not referring to it for your light weight is kind of hypocritical.  We have all the head to heads, common opponents, tournament placings we needed from last years bracket if we need to reference more.  

 

The seeding of all weight classes turned out really well, a great tournament will take place, Rangers job will be up for re-election.....those complaining won't step up - he will be stuck with the job again and we will go into next year so the same people can complain endlessly about the NKY Mafia.  Which makes no sense because Ranger and John forced me onto their committee when I did not want it and I have probably been the biggest devils advocate for years to them, but they wanted expansion out of Northern Kentucky and a different view.

 

Good job to those that participated on Monday night and acted professionally afterwards.  To those who have allowed emotion to over ride passion on this, get your head right because seeds, previous records, past results won't mean $h!t on February 8th.  All on the wrestler.  When the 4th placer from Region A wants it more than the Region Champion from Region D it would have been better time spent helping a young wrestler understand the mental game more than complaining on a forum.

 

Good luck to the 239 young men and one lady who have put in the work for us immature adults to argue over you at 14 years old and below.  

[8798 45]

I spoke with some coaches last night and realized that the current seeding system is what I was suggesting in my earlier posts.  My bad...I should have done more research before inserting my foot! 

[tiltfor3 20]

He didn't beat Blue the ref did. Moore didn't score a point his self against Blue. Not 1 single point did he create by him self. The only way he beat Blue was the ref called 3 crap tight waisting calls against him. So did your son get awarded the match? Sure. But did he beat Blue his self NO he didn't. Now Spencer is a great wrestler but he was handed the match that day. Also at the end Blue shouldve at the very least been awarded an escape and the match shouldve went to overtime. But the ref was terrible. You run into that it's part of the sport.

I really wished names of kids wouldn't have been brought into this. I didn't mention anyone's name because they are kids.

YES

Only after you guys tried to award him the 3seed then another coach had to step up and say he deserves the 1 because he was runner up last year.

You were the 1st to mention a kid by name.

[JCB 2]

I dislike the Kentucky High School State Draw as much as anyone else but, the random draw takes out any of the human effects of prejudice, bias or influence. 

 

If we are working on best practice why not seed 2’s 3’s or 4’s above 1’s?  If they were to have head to head wins or meet other criteria?  Would that not be the best practice and create the most combative match up? 

 

The middle school state tournament had been a great event for the past 10 years not sure it needed to be tweeted.  The old saying do not fix what is not broken applies here. 

 

Ranger you may very well be the most knowledgeable person in the state when it comes to skill level of each wrestler and this is not an attack on you or anyone else.  However, when you add subjective date into a conversation it becomes no more than a populate contest. 

 

Someone is going to come back and say the criteria’s are objective.  I strongly disagree that Winning % is an objective criteria.  It useful and need for seeding but not objective due to the difference level of competition each wrestle faces. 

[Ranger123 43]

Jcb I hear ya. But i don't know if we went to winning % on any brackets. Most of them had head to heads or common opponents or last yr state placer.

[grappler-of-old 44]

OK I don't have a dog in this fight. And most know I am against seeding the state tourney.

However in looking at some of the other states, I believe the only true honest and objective way to seed the state tourney is to only seed the regional champions and only by what they did last year. Returning state champions at the same wt. class are 1st, then returning state champions at another wt. class. ect. ect. I've seen a few states do it this way. (can't remember which ones I researched it last year).

The head to head is flawed because of the fluke win. I've seen kids lose a seed because of common opponent because they had to medical default a match and therfore took the loss. Ive also seen a kid lose a seed because of a defensive pin. (both in the district/regional seed meetings in high school). We can all agree that it was probably not the best seed.

Oh and by the way. I actually wouldn't mind seeing the Fausz v Ervin match in the quarters. Makes the whole tournament exciting, not just he finals.

[Nkawtg 137]

Blind seed with region #1 against another region's #4, then rotate through the classes so you don't get Union versus River City in every semifinal. Then again a lot of these kids are 11 years old, so what's the real point?