New state location idea.

[Josh_Claywell 52]

To seed the state tournament would take a longer break between tourneys, IMHO. The seed meetings for region take a while, but they're usually done and ready to go within a few hours. I can't imagine how long it would take to do the entire state.

[HWT 4]

To seed the state tournament would take a longer break between tourneys, IMHO. The seed meetings for region take a while, but they're usually done and ready to go within a few hours. I can't imagine how long it would take to do the entire state.

And if you have ever sat through a regional seeding meeting then you know how crazy it can get. Coaches want to seed their kid higher than an obvious winner because of record and a weak schedule. I've seen some crazy seeding meetings in my day.

[Mpire 76]

Not long using regional placings and the other criteria !!!!!

Otto it happened to Stephen a lot .....in Ohio , a very low seed at Iron Man placed 4th , no seed at Swowca after iron man 4th and a fargo 6th won easily , Stephen was a second seed at regionals last yr. and Austin a fresh was first ??????? I am still confused how a fresh got ranked 1st and an undefeated state champ got a 2 but 1 or 2 isn't that big a difference just if you win as a 2 you beat the next two best usually .

By common sense , I think it would be easier with a group as i said

[fanofwrestling6 14]

Is there a straight criteria for regional seedings ? I don't know ? A couple of weight classes are going to be tough to seed especially in region 6.

If there isn't a straight forward criteria how do the seeds get decided ? loudest voice wins lol... no seriously I'm actually curious to see this answer from coaches or from some that actually know. Thanks

[IWIN 49]

Trackwrestling helps with this, but its not perfect by any means. Returning State Champs, placers, regional Champs, placers, records, and head to head are mostly used. Sometimes if 2 seedable kids haven't wrestled they look at common opponents.

[JCB0577 17]

Track does a pretty good job.

[Irish Wrestler 10]

Something that I think that needs to be addressed at Alltech is the temperature on the floor.  There is a good 10-15 degee temperature change from the warm up area to the wrestling mats.  The mats closest to the doors on the spectator entry level are the coolest.  The air enters thru the doors and drops to the floor.  This isn't good after you have warmed up and the go out to wrestle and there is a huge temperature change.  Just some food for thought.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Not long using regional placings and the other criteria !!!!!

 

.

By common sense , I think it would be easier with a group as i said

Hahahahahahahahah

you obviously have not been to many high school seeding meetings.

What you may think is common sense makes no sense to many others and vice versa. 

 

Common opponent.  Year right.  How many times has SK, Ryle, or CC wrestled in KY let alone have common opponents with other teams in KY.

 

Better record against tougher opponenets.  Who decides who a tough opponenet is?  I would guess that many in ky would not know the names of many of the tough kids in Ohio, Ind or elswhere.  Even if they are nationally ranked.  Most/many coaches don't care who they are if they are not from KY.  As for the tournament they were at, well sometimes a tough overall tourny has a weak wt. class and an overall weak tourney could have a killer wt. class in it. 

 

Track wrestling does a good job of what?  Do even half the teams in ky keep it updated?

[Mpire 76]

I think Iwin meant they did a good job of criteria used for seeding ?????

If you have a bunch of coaches who will not be somewhat reasonable and admitt what they actually know then it would be hard , honestly most of us could seed the whole state and do a decent job of it from

Records looking in on who is wrestling who and the few matches we see a few honest coaches in each part of the state should have no problem , and a few wrong here and there will

Lead to the upsets that excite everyone once in a while . Just about any two guys on here could seed the top two kids in each class correctly , most know who the top few kids are and records could do the rest .

[Mpire 76]

I know what you mean about some schools Sk Ryle CC not wrestling all ky schools but those schools do wrestle in some big KY tournys and going from them it would not be hard to seed their kids .

I actually think CC wrestles more Ohio kids than KY , very impressede with their schedule ... Minus a big BIG tourny that could help some of its top kids solidify their place amongst the nations best .

I will give them one thing though as a team they went To NHSCAs and despite no big three or four tourny in season as some too schools attend they seem to stick together afterwards as many top teams do not , I know some do but it's a nice touch and a bit odd hitting their toughest tourny afterwards which leads me to believe the coaches are worried about their not so elite guys getting discouraged or hammered in season , because they do not do after season tournys , it may even out , if you think about it as I have .

[Josh_Claywell 52]

And if you have ever sat through a regional seeding meeting then you know how crazy it can get. Coaches want to seed their kid higher than an obvious winner because of record and a weak schedule. I've seen some crazy seeding meetings in my day.

I've sat through quite a few Region 2 seed meetings in my day. Some times they're fun, other times they take forever and are drawn out. Quickest seed meeting I've ever gone to was the year the region tourney was at Central. Everything was done and compiled in about 2 hours.

[Zeus 117]

I see everyone on here basically discussing two major issues with the KY state tournament, seeding and the 32 vs 16 man bracket.  Why don't we as a wrestling community take a poll on which one we want to change more?  Start the poll on here and then the coaches who are active on here can push for the poll that will actually matter, among the coaches around the state; get the coaches association to organize and mandate participation.  When the results are in, assuming they are one-sided, the coaches association brings this issue up to the KHSAA.  If you bring too many things to argue about then they will blow you off so you concentrate your efforts on one of them and hope for the best. 

 

I for a long time did not like the 32 man bracket, I competed in both, but have come to accept it and agree with the person who said that KY wrestling is improving and growing.  This is my ultimate goal so I don't want to mess with a good thing.  I think seeding the region champs would be easier than most think it would.  If you compare the rankings and regional champs you would find in any given weight class that the seedable wrestlers are normally not the top 8 wrestlers in the state.  You would have something like #1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, and 13.  This is because many of the top wrestlers are in the same region as another top wrestler so only one would be seeded and a few get upset in the regional finals against a lesser wrestler for whatever reason.  Like Mpire said, seeding the top four might take awhile but after that it gets easy.  My senior year I lost in the regional finals and then the state finals against the same guy.  Even though I was ranked third at the time I wouldn't have been seeded.  For the record I was one of those who benefitted from the tournament not being seeded.  I disagreed with the policy then and still do today; I mean EVERY other tournament the entire season is seeded and then when we get to the end and most important tourney we throw that tried and tested formula out the window?  It doesn't make sense.  Coaches, suck it up and do what's best for the kids... and yes I have coached high school in KY and sat through seemingly endless meetings of mindless discussion.  It's about what is best for the kids; ask them for their opinions and I guarantee you 9 out of 10 will say to seed it.

 

Sorry I ramble sometimes...

[Mpire 76]

Well not exactly what i said , but your post was very good and it does seem everyone would want it seeded , some classes would seem obvious that a pair or more should be seperated .

Like uh for instance uh we'll just say if you have two undefeated wrestlers one a state champ from the previous yr at 220 and one a state champ from 195 .Both at the same weight ... It would be a crime for them to be on the same side of a bracket at state .

[cmccoy 4]

GOO - Last, I think KY Wrestling has come along way. I'm proud to have my boys wrestling in this great state. But I think KHSAA could spend the money and buy a MAT for the finals (just the finals) that has the KHSAA logo on it and have it state "Kentucky High School State Wrestling Championships".
Ohio has mats like this and it's pretty cool.

 

One of my goals as President is for our organization to purchase a State Finals Mat that is only used in the State Finals and at the State Duals. It will have the KYWCA logo on it though.

[cmccoy 4]

I am all for seeding the tournament....if it would be possible. I see two things that could hinder it. 

 

1. Time - It would take forever to seed something like the State Tournament especially when a lot of teams do not see each other or have common opponents.

 

2. You would really have to be careful in who seeded it. You would need a very unbiased committee that had no agenda in doing so. When we discussed the split for State Duals, I asked coaches to vote based on if it would help growth for the sport and made a point to let coaches know that this is only reason that should be considered and not if it betters so and so's team etc. 

[grappler-of-old 44]

How come I got singled out in your comment.  ?????

 

An old timer like me just rambles on about things and has little to no control over any of it.

 

I do like the idea of a state finals mat that says "KENTUCKY STATE CHAMPIONSHIP".  or something like that.  I've been a ky based wrestler/fan for to long to wish I was someplace else.  I'm one of those people that just cares about KY and nothing alse.  I don't even care about national rankings and such. Other that what I have read on here I could not tell you one kid ranked nationally (even if they were from ky).  Im just interested in what will help KY wrestling and anyone involved in it. 

 

I don't believe seeding the state tourney helps KY wrestling in any way.  In growth, attendance, or participation. 

 

Once again these are the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less.  You can take them or leave them. 

GOO out.

[cmccoy 4]

GOO - I wasn't calling you out. I just could not get the quote button to work so I copied and pasted. I thought you had good points and wanted to reply.

[Mpire 76]

I cannot understand

Why it would be so hard to seed the tournament or why Anyone wouldn't want to , unless they simply want to see some

Chaos as far as who makes finals and such ,

If you have two or three or more of the best kids on one side the finals are a joke and there is mo true first second or third for that matter , if the state cannot put a group together that cannot seed the tournament honestly then it's In bad shape , I have seen it cost kids a trip to finals and possibly a championship ,My own in fact ,and it's ignorance at its best ,

Take two kids on the same side who are obviously the top two , one gets a bogus call slips whatever and ends up in consos losing by a point , meanwhile in the finals

It's a blowout because one side was weak as crap

Not exactly how you want to see your high school efforts end up because a group of people in charge are to crooked to seed a tournament that is supposed to represent the highest goal of most high school wrestlers and teams in the nation !!!

This topic is so cut and dry it doesn't even deserve discussion , of course you seed a state tournament unless everyone is just to dumb to do it and in that case it's all useless anyway !!!!!!!!!

[crazyotto 381]

I cannot understand

Why it would be so hard to seed the tournament or why Anyone wouldn't want to , unless they simply want to see some

Chaos as far as who makes finals and such ,

If you have two or three or more of the best kids on one side the finals are a joke and there is mo true first second or third for that matter , if the state cannot put a group together that cannot seed the tournament honestly then it's In bad shape , I have seen it cost kids a trip to finals and possibly a championship ,My own in fact ,and it's ignorance at its best ,

Take two kids on the same side who are obviously the top two , one gets a bogus call slips whatever and ends up in consos losing by a point , meanwhile in the finals

It's a blowout because one side was weak as crap

Not exactly how you want to see your high school efforts end up because a group of people in charge are to crooked to seed a tournament that is supposed to represent the highest goal of most high school wrestlers and teams in the nation !!!

This topic is so cut and dry it doesn't even deserve discussion , of course you seed a state tournament unless everyone is just to dumb to do it and in that case it's all useless anyway !!!!!!!!!

Is there a state that seeds the tournament? Honest question....... In a perfect world (you know, the one in which all wrestlers have the same schedule)it would be easy to do, however we are not there. Seeding via Regional placement is the best we've got. The problem comes in the fact that with eight Regionals feeding the tournament it is more than likely to have a few unbalanced brackets. The way to seed more accurately would be to implement another step, Districts. This way the fish are filtered out and the placers are slotted the same as Regionals. The true top guys rise up and are separated. The difference being 16 man brackets. Yes, we've been down that road and it does not seem to be popular. The brackets on both sides are even though, as a pre-determined (meaning way before sectionals and districts) pairing of Districts is used. No funny stuff.

[Mpire 76]

Districts would just be another ignorant step for KY and doesn't solve anything as far as seeding at state , you will still have kids from a certain area with the same seed or place heading to state , districts would solve nothing .

Regional placings head to head matchups and just plain common sense should be used to seed kids at state ,

I'm sure you know my point and example Otto since you are from Ohio .

Things still change with different matchups some

Kids have off days and snap back on others or just peak at the right moments , either way having the best match ups in the semis or quarters is a shame .

Take two undefeated wrestlers who have both had decent comp and are from different regions both are state champs and no one else has a record to match , they could meet in KY before Finals , that's dumb

[crazyotto 381]

Districts would just be another ignorant step for KY and doesn't solve anything as far as seeding at state , you will still have kids from a certain area with the same seed or place heading to state , districts would solve nothing .

Regional placings head to head matchups and just plain common sense should be used to seed kids at state ,

I'm sure you know my point and example Otto since you are from Ohio .

Things still change with different matchups some

Kids have off days and snap back on others or just peak at the right moments , either way having the best match ups in the semis or quarters is a shame .

Take two undefeated wrestlers who have both had decent comp and are from different regions both are state champs and no one else has a record to match , they could meet in KY before Finals , that's dumb

I see where you are coming from in regards to best match ups in semis. It does happen, every year. If your example is Stephen's freshman year then......I just looked at that bracket. Mines, Newhouse, Collica, Myers, Bright, Ague, Timchenko. Packed and stacked! Myers with 9-8 win over Collica in qtrs. The bracket looked pretty darned level to my eyes. One side had Bright, Ague, Newhouse, Timchenko. Other side had Myers, Collica, Mines, Boyd. Results 1 thru 8: Mines, Newhouse, Myers, Boyd, Gray, Bright, Timchenko, Griffith. What stands out to me is the fact that Ague and Collica did not place. The finals was between Mentor District #1 Newhouse and Mentor District #3 Mines. The Mentor District, as always, is a meat grinder. Collica beat Mines in District semis. Newhouse beat Ague. Newhouse over Collica for 1st, Mines over Ague for 3rd. On the other hand Myers was the only one out of the Fairfield District to place at state. Yes, he was so very close to beating Mines in semis. He was the only one from Fairfield District to place at the state. So I don't see any kind of conspiracy. What I do see (which is an annual event) is the Mentor District representing well with two finalists. Mines came out of district a #3 and beat the same district #1 in finals. So using the District placing numbers Myers saw a 4, 2, 3, 3, 1. Losing to #3 Mines in semis. Bright, also a #1 seed like Myers saw a 4, 2, 1, 1, 3. Placed 6th losing to #1 Newhouse in semis, then #1 Boyd in conso semis, followed by loss to Gray in the 5/6 match. I would say the deck was stacked against the hated St Edward's wrestler Bright.

[Mpire 76]

Stephen beat Newhouse that yr 9-2 . Definatly lopsided bracket everyone in Ohio noticed , I guess except you .

Mines losing to Collica at district screwed everything up is the real problem with that yr and I thought Stephen beat Collica worse either way it was a massacre from the first period , lat drop Collica down 5-0 to start and the hated myers helped knock him out and beat grey who beat bright earlier in the tourny , .

[grappler-of-old 44]

We have had this discussion several times.  Every year about this time. 

 

I believe that a few states attempt to seed their tourneys.  Thier criteria's were must be a regional champ and must be a returning placer.  The higher placer from last year gets the higher seed.

 

I'm with you on this Mpire;  Your right this topic is cut and dry and does not need discussion, you don't seed the state tourney, unless everyone has a crystal ball and knows who is the best on the 2 days of the tourney or has seen every one of the qualifiers in each wt. class wrestle. 

 

I don't understand how it costs anyone a championship.  You must beat everyone to win it do if you lose then you would not win that day anyway.  As I've mentioned I believe I was the second best in my wt. class at least twice.  But met the same person 2 years in a row in the semi's.  So I didn't make the finals, I did the best I could in the semi's and came back out.  No skin off my nose I wasn't the best so I took what I could after that.  Had actually beaten the #2 the year before.  But not one time did I or anyone in my family say, "I should have been in the finals, if only i'd been on the other side".  I said "Man I should have won in the semi's, then i would have been a state champ". 

 

What about a district where top four qualify then have a region where all eight will still qualify for state but you then have placers 1-8.  That way you have only 4 Regional Champs, who will wrestle a #8 regional placer.  And still have a 32 man bracket.  It lessens the chance of the best two meeting in quarters and semi's.

 

Or how about this.

 

Districts already place top 6.  So send all 6 to a region.  Makes it a 12 man bracket so can still be run in one day. 
 

have placement to top eight who all qualify for state tourney.  Again you have only 4 regional winners who would wrestle a #8 placer from another region.  That leaves 2 regional champs on each side of the brackets, No regional champions meeting each other till the Semi's. 

[crazyotto 381]

Stephen beat Newhouse that yr 9-2 . Definatly lopsided bracket everyone in Ohio noticed , I guess except you .

Mines losing to Collica at district screwed everything up is the real problem with that yr and I thought Stephen beat Collica worse either way it was a massacre from the first period , lat drop Collica down 5-0 to start and the hated myers helped knock him out and beat grey who beat bright earlier in the tourny , .

Quite honestly, I had no recollection of the bracket until you brought it up. I had to go look it up. It was a tough bracket no matter how you cut it. Lopsided? That is a bit much. No bracket is perfect. Seeding won't fix that either. "Crooked"? No way. You could say that had Mines won his district things would have slotted differently in the bracket. But, that is why you wrestle and not look at the "on paper" stuff. Mines faced district 2, 1, 1, 1 on his way to winning it. That is what you get for placing 3rd at district. He earned it. What event did Stephen beat Newhouse? Ironman, or state duals I am guessing.

[IWIN 49]

I'll be darned GOO, I actually really like the idea of district tournament where the top 4 qualify for regions and then at regions wrestle 1-8 and everyone moves on. May not fix the problem completely, but the odds are a lot better. Nice fix sir, well played.