New rules for KY MS Wrestling

[BadMadDad 16]

Since the MS State tourney has been completed and spring meetings are around the corner, what are some possible rule changes that could positively affect MS wrestling in the state of KY? What do we need to do to get ourselves to the level of some of the surrounding states? Thoughts?

[Ranger123 43]

I don't believe there are any rules changes that we can make that will elevate our level to be on par with surrounding states. I think the key is to continue to get exposure for our top kids to the best competition possible. So we need to take advantage of opportunities like Team KY and get the most out of those efforts.

[ynss 3]

I would like to see a rule put in place that if a wrestler qualifies for high school state that they should not be eligible for middle school state. If a wrestler is good enough to wrestle at the high school varsity level and the coaches and parents agree to put him/her there, they should stay there.

[marriedtothemat 13]

Middle School post season takes place prior to all high school post season. This rule would only apply to those who qualified for h.s. State the year before. So an 8th grader could wrestle middle school then qualify for high school state and be fine but the 7th grader who did the same would be ineligible for middle school the next year. Doesn't make sense to me.

[ynss 3]

I understand what you are saying and of course this is an open discussion forum for thoughts and ideas. How about this way then. If a middle school wrestlers wrestles at the high school varsity level, then they are not eligible for middle school tournaments. I believe they have a rule of this nature in high school football. I am not 100% sure of the rule, but I think it is something like, "if a football player is a started on varsity defense, they are not allowed to play that position on JV." Again, not 100% sure of the rule.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

I dont think the rules are a problem. I would like to see more kids participate in off season events. Most of the better wrestlers in the state wrestle in the off season wether it be in KY or elsewhere. For the most part, tournaments are held in KY on a weekly basis, but most of them suck due to a lack of participation. Its like any other sport where what you do in the off season can help determine how you will do during the regular season.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

I understand what you are saying and of course this is an open discussion forum for thoughts and ideas. How about this way then. If a middle school wrestlers wrestles at the high school varsity level, then they are not eligible for middle school tournaments. I believe they have a rule of this nature in high school football. I am not 100% sure of the rule, but I think it is something like, "if a football player is a started on varsity defense, they are not allowed to play that position on JV." Again, not 100% sure of the rule.

What about kids who live in Jefferson Co. who arent allowed to wrestle in high school but are good enough to if they were given the opportunity? Still doesnt make sense. Thats like saying if a kid wrestles at middle school state he shouldnt be allowed to participate at youth state even tho he falls under the guidelines. Dont try to punish a kid just because hes good at what he does. He might be a middle school champ and not even place at the high school level.

[trithis 34]

. He might be a middle school champ and not even place at the high school level.

That has already happened this year.

[Has Been 11]

I would like to see a rule put in place that if a wrestler qualifies for high school state that they should not be eligible for middle school state. If a wrestler is good enough to wrestle at the high school varsity level and the coaches and parents agree to put him/her there, they should stay there.

OK, got it, so why do you want to penalize a kid because he is good or the high school team doesn’t have a wrestler in that weigh class or even say the region isn’t strong? Props to the young man or girl for working hard.

So now we wantto hold him back all year to beat middle school kids; gain less experience and the high school forfeits the same weight class at regions? Na

[PinAndWin 64]

I understand what you are saying and of course this is an open discussion forum for thoughts and ideas. How about this way then. If a middle school wrestlers wrestles at the high school varsity level, then they are not eligible for middle school tournaments. I believe they have a rule of this nature in high school football. I am not 100% sure of the rule, but I think it is something like, "if a football player is a started on varsity defense, they are not allowed to play that position on JV." Again, not 100% sure of the rule.

Middle School isn't JV. If the kid is still in Middle School and is good enough to do both, let him do it. If it's effecting your kid or your wrestler, encourage him to work harder and get better.

[BadMadDad 16]

I would like to see a rule put in place that if a wrestler qualifies for high school state that they should not be eligible for middle school state. If a wrestler is good enough to wrestle at the high school varsity level and the coaches and parents agree to put him/her there, they should stay there.

I can understand what you are thinking here. But before anyone gets upset and says that this idea isn’t fair, it would clear up some issues I see facing our sport in KY in regard to this issue . While I understand it is not fair to punish a kid for being too good, that is not the intention. Think about it this way, if your son is an 8^th grader and has a great chance to be the state champ in MS, than let him be an 8^th grader and finish his MS years as an 8^th grader or let him go to the HS level and give it his best shot. We hear everyone say, well my son is a good HS wrestler and should be allowed to do both, but choose one or the other and move forward. How fair is it to the other 8^th graders to not get a chance to face the best in the state if the best in the state is spending most of their season at the HS level and only dropping down for the District/Region/State events? We all want wrestling in Kentucky to grow and be the best it can be, but the only way it can be the best is if the best are there during the year to compete.

Another challenge that I see is the team/club status. I understand why this was put in place and do believe it was set up with the best of intentions. However, I do think the idea has become somewhat diluted as we are moving forward. While I think KY has been very smart in doing awards for both clubs and teams at the state level, we have two groups competing by different sets of rules. Teams are by definition kids that go to one school or are from a youth program that feeds the school directly. These kids are required to keep their grades up and meet the schools expectations for participation in MS wrestling. While a club can consist of kids from several schools and to the best of my knowledge no grade reporting is required. These kids are going to school to learn, not wrestle. What rules are in place to stop a person from putting together an all star team, calling it a club and pulling the talent from the local teams thus diluting the talent pool while cleaning up at any tournaments they attend. Also, I know of several cases where kids from a school with a program in place are going to other programs because they are a better program. How does each school’s programs get better if kids are not wrestling for the school that they attend? While I understand that parents want to put their kids in the best position to be successful, but how in the world is this helping our sport?

[Has Been 11]

I believe this is exactly why the schedule Middle School Reg, Dist. and State are on the calendar so they do not conflict with high school and they can do both…..

If you want to prevent middle school wrestling in both events just put Middle school State on the same day as high school regions then they have to choose one or the other.

I believe it’s wrong to do that….

[trithis 34]

ThunderstruckX2 - So, are you just stating your opinion or plan on proposing something different should be done and what that would be or look like? I didn't hear of a better more efficient way of doing so.

[BadMadDad 16]

ThunderstruckX2 - So, are you just stating your opinion or plan on proposing something different should be done and what that would be or look like? I didn't hear of a better more efficient way of doing so.

All I am trying to do is initiate good level headed conversation about what we can do to promote growth in the sport. I’m not on hear to fight or argue but would like some intelligent dialogue and different ideas so if a rule change is proposed, it gives everyone a chance to get ideas to the surface to make a good informed decision moving forward.

[trithis 34]

All I am trying to do is initiate good level headed conversation about what we can do to promote growth in the sport. I’m not on hear to fight or argue but would like some intelligent dialogue and different ideas so if a rule change is proposed, it gives everyone a chance to get ideas to the surface to make a good informed decision moving forward.

I appreciate a good discussion and there is not a reason to fight or argue about it, but I just wanted to hear if you had an idea to make an improvement from the current situation. The Club\School issue actually seems to work pretty well. The only thing that would ever separate them completely is to run two separate tourneys for each. I'm not convinced there is enough participation yet to do that. As for the kids that are in the clubs, they have the freedom to go where they feel it is a better fit for them with a program, the coaches and the caliber of wrestling or wrestlers that are at a program. As for the school programs, they have an advantage as well. They get to pick the kids out of the school halls and develop those kids and have a school tie that a club may or may not have. I don't think either situation has an overly large advantage over each other. I haven't seen a Club or a School program dominate year, after year, after year yet to warrant a major change. Ryle won the overall last year as a club and Campbell Co won the overall as a school. I personally don't think it's diluted to say the least. Ask any of the teams that took home a State Trophy if they feel that way and don't think they earned that hardware. Can't imagine they would.

[J.W. 21]

Are the MAJORITY of middle schoolers on the same level of physical and mental maturity as high schoolers? Not some, but the majority.

[tiltfor3 20]

I can understand what you are thinking here. But before anyone gets upset and says that this idea isn’t fair, it would clear up some issues I see facing our sport in KY in regard to this issue . While I understand it is not fair to punish a kid for being too good, that is not the intention. Think about it this way, if your son is an 8^th grader and has a great chance to be the state champ in MS, than let him be an 8^th grader and finish his MS years as an 8^th grader or let him go to the HS level and give it his best shot. We hear everyone say, well my son is a good HS wrestler and should be allowed to do both, but choose one or the other and move forward. How fair is it to the other 8^th graders to not get a chance to face the best in the state if the best in the state is spending most of their season at the HS level and only dropping down for the District/Region/State events? We all want wrestling in Kentucky to grow and be the best it can be, but the only way it can be the best is if the best are there during the year to compete.

Another challenge that I see is the team/club status. I understand why this was put in place and do believe it was set up with the best of intentions. However, I do think the idea has become somewhat diluted as we are moving forward. While I think KY has been very smart in doing awards for both clubs and teams at the state level, we have two groups competing by different sets of rules. Teams are by definition kids that go to one school or are from a youth program that feeds the school directly. These kids are required to keep their grades up and meet the schools expectations for participation in MS wrestling. While a club can consist of kids from several schools and to the best of my knowledge no grade reporting is required. These kids are going to school to learn, not wrestle. What rules are in place to stop a person from putting together an all star team, calling it a club and pulling the talent from the local teams thus diluting the talent pool while cleaning up at any tournaments they attend. Also, I know of several cases where kids from a school with a program in place are going to other programs because they are a better program. How does each school’s programs get better if kids are not wrestling for the school that they attend? While I understand that parents want to put their kids in the best position to be successful, but how in the world is this helping our sport?

You are totally forgetting the home-schooled. It is becoming more and more, not to mention easier to do than ever before. I know that in West Virginia the court declared a home-schooled child could wrestle on a high school team that was in his district. Just because they are home-schooled doesn't mean they don't pay taxes and aren't US citizens.

[BadMadDad 16]

I appreciate a good discussion and there is not a reason to fight or argue about it, but I just wanted to hear if you had an idea to make an improvement from the current situation. The Club\School issue actually seems to work pretty well. The only thing that would ever separate them completely is to run two separate tourneys for each. I'm not convinced there is enough participation yet to do that. As for the kids that are in the clubs, they have the freedom to go where they feel it is a better fit for them with a program, the coaches and the caliber of wrestling or wrestlers that are at a program. As for the school programs, they have an advantage as well. They get to pick the kids out of the school halls and develop those kids and have a school tie that a club may or may not have. I don't think either situation has an overly large advantage over each other. I haven't seen a Club or a School program dominate year, after year, after year yet to warrant a major change. Ryle won the overall last year as a club and Campbell Co won the overall as a school. I personally don't think it's diluted to say the least. Ask any of the teams that took home a State Trophy if they feel that way and don't think they earned that hardware. Can't imagine they would.

I can see your point too, but I guess I don’t understand how a school team can improve if the kids that they have are allowed to go to different club to compete. Since this is a school league, isn’t the sport better off mandating kids wrestle for their own program? I do think that if a program is available at their own school, they should be required to compete in house, so to speak. If the sport isn’t offered at their school, than this is the entire reason to join a club.

[BadMadDad 16]

You are totally forgetting the home-schooled. It is becoming more and more, not to mention easier to do than ever before. I know that in West Virginia the court declared a home-schooled child could wrestle on a high school team that was in his district. Just because they are home-schooled doesn't mean they don't pay taxes and aren't US citizens.

In my eyes, that is the perfect situation for a kid to join a club team. Again & I know I keep going back to this, if a wrestler goes to a school with a program in place, why are we allowing them to go to a different program and how is that helping the sport?

[BadMadDad 16]

Let’s say for a minute that I am a multi-millionaire with tons of money to burn. I start a club team in NKY and offer to pay all the fees associated with wrestling as well as hotels and incidentals for anyone good enough to be my number 1. Bring in the top coaches from around the country, pay them well and pay each kid depending on how they finish in KY and nationally. I bet this would cause several teams in the NKY area to lose top flight wrestlers from their program, thus prompting a change to club rules.

Ok, back to reality. I know this seems very farfetched but it brings me back to my original point. The clubs were set up to allow kids without a program a chance to compete. Kids that go to a school with a program in place need to stay home to be part of the school program they are associated with. Again, just looking at ways to make our sport even better for all the kids.

[tiltfor3 20]

In my eyes, that is the perfect situation for a kid to join a club team. Again & I know I keep going back to this, if a wrestler goes to a school with a program in place, why are we allowing them to go to a different program and how is that helping the sport?

Because someone of importance thinks that is better for the kid. Besides, when it comes time for high school, they will be getting a better wrestler if, as you posted earlier the club is a better program. I don't think you should limit the options of our children as to how they want to improve themselves as a person and a wrestler.

[tiltfor3 20]

Let’s say for a minute that I am a multi-millionaire with tons of money to burn. I start a club team in NKY and offer to pay all the fees associated with wrestling as well as hotels and incidentals for anyone good enough to be my number 1. Bring in the top coaches from around the country, pay them well and pay each kid depending on how they finish in KY and nationally. I bet this would cause several teams in the NKY area to lose top flight wrestlers from their program, thus prompting a change to club rules.

Ok, back to reality. I know this seems very farfetched but it brings me back to my original point. The clubs were set up to allow kids without a program a chance to compete. Kids that go to a school with a program in place need to stay home to be part of the school program they are associated with. Again, just looking at ways to make our sport even better for all the kids.

This would only be possible at the middle school level. Who wouldn't take advantage of the top coaches, travel etc..? What parent is going to screw around with a 12 year old's amateur status? If you limit these club options for middle school, it is my belief the high school program will suffer in the long run.

[WHS98 34]

I will chime in on this one being my son went to North Oldham and wrestled for Rivercity.Last year when he was at North there were several coaches that did not send kids out to wrestle him,for fear of getting their wrestler hurt and I totally agree with their thinking.A new wrestler that maybe in the 4th or 5th grade wrestling a 2x state champ.But by the same token what good does that do for my son.In the end I think it hurt him badly by the way he lost the state finals in 2011..So this year we were not going to wrestle middle school at all and he was to light to wrestle high school.We were just going to do out of state club and nationals.He did not like the way last year ended so he on his own called Rivercity to see if they would let him come there.It was for 3 reasons they had a lot of good small practice partners , we are considering going to ST.X and a couple of things happened at the school I didn't like.It was nothing against Norths wrestling team or coaches..I think parents have the right to get their kids as good as they can be.North had a very good team this year but their best kids were to heavy for him to practice with..We know when you get to high school there is no moving around,unless it is at Campbell Co.(LOL) I just couldn't help from saying that.

[trithis 34]

ThunderstruckX2 - So, you are telling me that if your kid is a stud and has to wrestle and compete for a team (School) because he has to....like in HS, and they have less than qualified coaches, personal conflicts, cake schedule, garbage facilities, no one to push you kid in the room to get better, ect...you're telling me that you wouldn't prefer to bring your stud of a kid to a program that fit his needs better and help him progess in the sport. Personally, I believe not.

To your first point...that actually happens in VA...ex: Grundy....Go Red! They are a decent team, but by no means a powerhouse like St Eds.

[bigedcoach 27]

I aggree with Thunderstuck, we need to develop school teams and place an importance on scholastic teams, Club teams are important because they get kids to wrestle that dont have programs or like in Jefferson Co, where there isnt sanctioned middle school wrestling, all programs in theroy are clubs. I believe if a kid goes to a school they should wrestle for that school if they have a program. I understand the passion for the sport but we are promoting "middle school wrestling" which means there is a scholastic meaning to this, just like the high school programs, this is a scholastic based season. I coach soccer on both the scholastic and club level, and the best players do both and with the same passion. Club programs can already draw from a huge population base, to take from a school team that only can draw from a small population just isnt right.