Haves and Have Nots

[oldwrestler81 6]

It seems to me that our teams are becoming polarized with the best teams getting stronger and the other teams flalling off.  For example 8 ot the 14 champions came from the top 3 teams.  Also 19 (of a possible 54) of the all the top 4 four finishers came from just the top 4 teams.  Is it the top teams getting better or is it a bigger concern that many of our other teams are starting to slide?

[PackAttack 0]

Why do the Yankees get better every year?

[BooneCounty215 0]

For example 8 ot the 14 champions came from the top 3 teams.  Also 19 (of a possible 54) of the all the top 4 four finishers came from just the top 4 teams

Could that be why they are the top 3 teams?

[Indians40 2]

The top teams are where they are for a reason.  I do believe though that we have several young programs across the state that given 2 - 3 years will begin to gain ground on current programs.  If you look at the youth and middle school programs you still see the top programs but you also see others gaining ground.  Again, I believe the top programs will remain dominant in many ways for years to come. 

[D1 Fan 9]

I think all teams go through ups and downs.  Woodford was the absolute power house for many years and they continue to place very respectable however they are struggling right now... They are still the team to watch and not overlook... and they will absolutely be back on the top... and you will find strong athletes show up on strong and weak teams and those athletes will make it to the state tournament in it's current format regardless of the strength of the team.  An couple examples of that are the wrestlers that were in the finals from lower placing teams such as  Josh Loqez from Franklin 24th place, Chase Boone from Ohio Co 33rd place, and Kevin Cooper from Simon Kenton 21st Place... so in my opinion you are making a good case for keeping the 32 man bracket at the State Tournament or you may only have a handfull of the same teams getting a chance to compete and likely not see a Franklin, Ohio Co, etc. have an opportunity to be in a finals match.  I believe some athletes bring a higher level of performance to a state tournament while others "freeze" up and don't preform as well or as expected.  Just my 2 cents!

[Irish Wrestler 10]

I agree D1.  Look at Harrison Co., they brought three to state  and ended up with a state champion.  They were down some this year but will be strong again in the near future.  They have a great youth program that is going to bring them many great wrestlers in the next few years.  You can't count someone out based on one years performance.  Harrison Co. will have several make it to state in the next couple of years and beyond.

[Wrestling Dad 99]

The other issue is where the top teams wrestle.  Trinity, Ryle and Union all wrestled tournaments out of state.  They were in Ohio, Indiana and Tennessee, sometimes taking a loss to toughen up for the Kentucky state tournament.  I'm not sure many of the Lexington schools went out of state to find competition this year.  It does make a difference seeing tough competition, different styles and different people when the state tournament comes around.

[marriedtothemat 13]

I agree D1.  Look at Harrison Co., they brought three to state  and ended up with a state champion.  They were down some this year but will be strong again in the near future.  They have a great youth program that is going to bring them many great wrestlers in the next few years.  You can't count someone out based on one years performance.  Harrison Co. will have several make it to state in the next couple of years and beyond.

One great kid does not make a great team.  Harrison hasn't been a really good team in a long time.  Also only 3 state champions in school history.  They will bounce back some but the program probably won't greatly improve without some major changes

[bigtime 0]

The other issue is where the top teams wrestle.  Trinity, Ryle and Union all wrestled tournaments out of state.  They were in Ohio, Indiana and Tennessee, sometimes taking a loss to toughen up for the Kentucky state tournament.  I'm not sure many of the Lexington schools went out of state to find competition this year.  It does make a difference seeing tough competition, different styles and different people when the state tournament comes around.

I believe Lafayette went to South Carolina this year.

[Irish Wrestler 10]

One great kid does not make a great team.  Harrison hasn't been a really good team in a long time.  Also only 3 state champions in school history.  They will bounce back some but the program probably won't greatly improve without some major changes

Married, I wasn't saying that one kid made a great team.  I was just pointing out that Harrison County should show great improvements in the next few years because of their youth program

[Lowsingle 9]

I believe the strong are getting stronger but I don't think the weak are getting weaker. Sometimes its just hard to keep up with some of the larger schools in the state. With a class system we could really grow the sport of wrestling in Kentucky. The number of teams in kentucky is not really growing at the pace that many of us would like to see. It is very hard to convince some of the smaller schools (400-600 students) to start up wrestling programs when they have to compete with some of the biggest schools in the state (1200-1500 students). At the same time it is very difficult for the smaller schools that have wrestling programs to keep up with and compete with those large schools. I think we had 78 teams compete in our state tournament this year. That would plenty of enough teams to go to a two class system like WV.  I think if we tried the class system for two years we would see a dramatic increase in the number of wrestling programs across the state.

[Zeus 117]

I believe the strong are getting stronger but I don't think the weak are getting weaker. Sometimes its just hard to keep up with some of the larger schools in the state. With a class system we could really grow the sport of wrestling in Kentucky. The number of teams in kentucky is not really growing at the pace that many of us would like to see. It is very hard to convince some of the smaller schools (400-600 students) to start up wrestling programs when they have to compete with some of the biggest schools in the state (1200-1500 students). At the same time it is very difficult for the smaller schools that have wrestling programs to keep up with and compete with those large schools. I think we had 78 teams compete in our state tournament this year. That would plenty of enough teams to go to a two class system like WV.  I think if we tried the class system for two years we would see a dramatic increase in the number of wrestling programs across the state.

We might as well give out medals for participation next year too.  We are not big enough to split to a two-class system.  If you split it in half then you would have less than forty schools each.  Basically everyone would qualify for the state tournament, that is unless the KHSAA goes back to the 16-man bracket.  Even then making it to state wouldn't be an accomplishment which is the biggest problem I have with the 32-man bracket now.  The top teams in the state aren't really far enough ahead of the small schools to warrant a split.  Trinity and Ryle are good but Union has been right there with them as evidenced by their finishes the past few years.  If the top large schools in the state were something like Mater Dei in Indiana or Parkersburg South in West Virginia I might think differently but probably not.  We just don't have the volume of teams to justify a split, sorry.

[grappler-of-old 44]

If you want to split the state into division only do it at the state DUALS tourney.  Wrestling is an individual sport with group tendencies. 

Smaller schools can compete with larger schools.  It has nothing to do with the amount of kids at your school.  A team with 10 wrestlers can still have a state champion.  Schools don't drop or refuse to field a team because the team can't compete.  They drop it or refuse to start one for one of three things.  1.  MONEY  2.  Title IX 3. No interest by the students.

Don't go to a class sytem.  If you did that and you were the 130lb champion of either division, you would never really know if you were the best in KY. The team championship is only important to maybe 10-15 teams in the state.  The rest focus their energy on individual state champions and placers.

[Zeus 117]

If you want to split the state into division only do it at the state DUALS tourney.  Wrestling is an individual sport with group tendencies. 

This might be the best idea I've heard in the debate about this.  The coaches association runs it anyhow and they are the ones who are trying to impose it.  Make it two eight team brackets and you essentially have the same result in terms of time and planning.  If you want to make it interesting allow small schools to "bump up" and wrestle in the large school division.

[grappler-of-old 44]

This might be the best idea I've heard in the debate about this.  The coaches association runs it anyhow and they are the ones who are trying to impose it.  Make it two eight team brackets and you essentially have the same result in terms of time and planning.  If you want to make it interesting allow small schools to "bump up" and wrestle in the large school division.

Dang. I have one good idea a year and I already made it.  What am I gong to do for the rest of the year?  :-D 8-) :evil:

[Lowsingle 9]

We might as well give out medals for participation next year too.  We are not big enough to split to a two-class system.  If you split it in half then you would have less than forty schools each.  Basically everyone would qualify for the state tournament, that is unless the KHSAA goes back to the 16-man bracket.  Even then making it to state wouldn't be an accomplishment which is the biggest problem I have with the 32-man bracket now.  The top teams in the state aren't really far enough ahead of the small schools to warrant a split.  Trinity and Ryle are good but Union has been right there with them as evidenced by their finishes the past few years.  If the top large schools in the state were something like Mater Dei in Indiana or Parkersburg South in West Virginia I might think differently but probably not.  We just don't have the volume of teams to justify a split, sorry.

West Virginia runs a pretty good two class system with about 95 teams total. So you are looking at forty some teams per class with a sixteen man bracket in each weight class. They have the state tournament on the same weekend at the same venue. Here is what our state tournament looked like this year as far as the size of schools. I only went as deep as the top 15 schools.

1. Trinity 232 6A

2. Ryle 204 6A

3. Union 129 3A

4. Johnson Central 128.5 5A

5. Larue 120 4A

6. Campbell County 117.5 6A

7. Wayne County 116 3A

8. John Hardin 99 5A

9. St. X 94 6A

10. North Hardin 78.5 6A

11. Woodford 77.5 5A

12. South Oldham 75 5A

13. Southern 73.5 6A

14. Whitley County 70.5 5A

15. Seneca 70 6A

15. Sheldon Clark 70 3A

That adds up to:

6A- 869.5

5A- 450.5

4A- 120

3A- 315

2A- 0

1A- 0

If this were splt into Large School/Small School you would have:

Large School- 1440

Small School- 315

I would say that the larger schools in our state are more than a little further ahead of our small schools.

[dscicle 6]

LaRue is/was the smallest school in 4A when we went to the new classification in football. It was something like 1 or 2 male students that kept them from being 3A. Plus LaRue is in the small school division at State Tournament.

[Lowsingle 9]

Also if you look at the next 15 schools you will find:

9 6A Schools

3 5A Schools

2 4A Schools

1 3A Schools

When you have double the male enrollment you have double the number of athletes which makes it a lot easier to fill all the weight classes with athletic kids. It also makes it a lot easier to to qualify 12-14 kids for the state tourny. Even if those kids don't place they could score a lot of points if each of them win one or two matches. I'm sure Trinity and St. X have more kids come out for wrestling than Wayne Co., Sheldon Clark, and North Oldham have come out for their football teams.

[Lowsingle 9]

LaRue is/was the smallest school in 4A when we went to the new classification in football. It was something like 1 or 2 male students that kept them from being 3A. Plus LaRue is in the small school division at State Tournament.

Your right my bad it should read:

Large Schools- 1320

Small Schools- 435

That is still an 885 point swing toward the large schools

[Has Been 11]

Two Surprises or shockers:

See'n Woodford out of the TOP ten after being 6th last year,

See'n North Hardin in the TOP ten after finishing 30th last year.

[eaglewrestler12 2]

This might be the best idea I've heard in the debate about this.  The coaches association runs it anyhow and they are the ones who are trying to impose it.  Make it two eight team brackets and you essentially have the same result in terms of time and planning.  If you want to make it interesting allow small schools to "bump up" and wrestle in the large school division.

How would the Region Dual qualifying work if it was split into small/large school?

[Ranger123 43]

How would the Region Dual qualifying work if it was split into small/large school?

I get to select the teams that qualify.  :evil:

[Zeus 117]

West Virginia runs a pretty good two class system with about 95 teams total. So you are looking at forty some teams per class with a sixteen man bracket in each weight class. They have the state tournament on the same weekend at the same venue. Here is what our state tournament looked like this year as far as the size of schools. I only went as deep as the top 15 schools.

1. Trinity 232 6A

2. Ryle 204 6A

3. Union 129 3A

4. Johnson Central 128.5 5A

5. Larue 120 4A

6. Campbell County 117.5 6A

7. Wayne County 116 3A

8. John Hardin 99 5A

9. St. X 94 6A

10. North Hardin 78.5 6A

11. Woodford 77.5 5A

12. South Oldham 75 5A

13. Southern 73.5 6A

14. Whitley County 70.5 5A

15. Seneca 70 6A

15. Sheldon Clark 70 3A

That adds up to:

6A- 869.5

5A- 450.5

4A- 120

3A- 315

2A- 0

1A- 0

If this were splt into Large School/Small School you would have:

Large School- 1440

Small School- 315

I would say that the larger schools in our state are more than a little further ahead of our small schools.

How would you feel if you were the "state champ" of a division that only had 40 teams?  Also throw in the fact that many teams can't field a full lineup.  So now you are really a state champ of something like 25-30 people.  Quite an accomplishment if you ask me.

[Ranger123 43]

How would you feel if you were the "state champ" of a division that only had 40 teams?  Also throw in the fact that many teams can't field a full lineup.  So now you are really a state champ of something like 25-30 people.  Quite an accomplishment if you ask me.

It would definitely take away a lot of the drama and excitement of the state tournament.

[Lowsingle 9]

I'm just looking at this from a growth stand point. I know that it would take away from some excitement at first. But in the long run I think some smaller schools would be more willing to start a program if they thought they could compete within the first few years of having a team. We are starting to see great success come out of having a middle school organization but to only have eighty some teams in the entire state is kind of dissappointing. Some state have eighty some teams per division. I know some people say "well how will you know who the best in the state is?". I say have a large school/small school state champ dual the weekend after the state tournament. That would be very interesting to watch.