State first round?

[44 dad 43]

AMEN DUKE 

[grappler-of-old 44]

6 hours ago, Chris Duke said:

I feel the same way about Ryle’s ability to handle this tournament next year.  It will be a complete mess. 

I have complete faith in Ryle handling the tournament.  They have numerous alumni who help numerous coaches who can help and a knowledgeable parental following. Along with a huge parking lot. 

[Chris Duke 284]

7 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

I have complete faith in Ryle handling the tournament.  They have numerous alumni who help numerous coaches who can help and a knowledgeable parental following. Along with a huge parking lot. 

Relax, Ryle runs a great tournament.  Kickemout runs a better tournament than the KHSAA with fewer people.  We have a few dads we have to keep a close eye on, 44Dad and Ranchy have the attention span of a field mouse and need help from our youth wrestlers just to make sure the ref knows the time.  Gameface is on the sound system some good some bad and we can not forget the voice of the Raiders who traveled with Kickemout to Simon Kenton last week to run the regional tournament.   

[Coach Burton 15]

20 hours ago, neverbreak said:

No I do not want the setup to be as stated in my previous post.  I was pointing out that the only way KHSAA can consider this the first round of state is to eliminate anyone with a loss as a possible champ, carry points over to the next weekend, and let the placements from "1st round" fall in like I previously stated.

 

1. It is the KHSAA's tournament.  They can format it anyway and consider it anything they wish.  

2.  The KHSAA always plans out years ahead with a plan, even if they have no intention of keeping that plan.  It is one thing they do very well.  The hope is to go back to 32 man brackets in one arena, but they plan out a few years with the semi-state format incase that can't happen.

3.  The only reason the KHSAA hasn't gone back to the one arena 32 man bracket format this year is because they are broke.  Losing the sweet 16 last year killed their budget for years.  Not one year, but multiple.  When they get financially straight again, things will return to normal.  That's what everyone wants, even the KHSAA.

4. Not committing to an arena/format right now gives them options if they finally sanction girls wrestling.  It can be a combined event, much like track.  That will give them a lot more options on venue.

[neverbreak 10]

1 hour ago, Coach Burton said:

1. It is the KHSAA's tournament.  They can format it anyway and consider it anything they wish.  

2.  The KHSAA always plans out years ahead with a plan, even if they have no intention of keeping that plan.  It is one thing they do very well.  The hope is to go back to 32 man brackets in one arena, but they plan out a few years with the semi-state format incase that can't happen.

3.  The only reason the KHSAA hasn't gone back to the one arena 32 man bracket format this year is because they are broke.  Losing the sweet 16 last year killed their budget for years.  Not one year, but multiple.  When they get financially straight again, things will return to normal.  That's what everyone wants, even the KHSAA.

4. Not committing to an arena/format right now gives them options if they finally sanction girls wrestling.  It can be a combined event, much like track.  That will give them a lot more options on venue.

You are right the KHSAA can call it whatever they want.  That does not change the "KHSAA First Round State Tournament" to the actual state tournament.  It is simply a qualifying event for the actual tournament where team awards and medals will be won.

[Coach Burton 15]

If the governing body says it the first round of the state tournament, then it's the first round of the state tournament. 

4 minutes ago, neverbreak said:

You are right the KHSAA can call it whatever they want.  That does not change the "KHSAA First Round State Tournament" to the actual state tournament.  It is simply a qualifying event for the actual tournament where team awards and medals will be won.

If the governing body says it's the first round of the state tournament then it's the first round of the state tournament. That's pretty cut and dry.

[GentleBeard 145]

9 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

If the governing body says it the first round of the state tournament, then it's the first round of the state tournament. 

If the governing body says it's the first round of the state tournament then it's the first round of the state tournament. That's pretty cut and dry.

Except for the fact that if it is truly part of the same tournament, team points would carry over.  The fact that you can lose a match one week and win a state title the next week also suggests they are two very different tournaments.  State champs don't lose a match in the state tournament, historically.  Just because the KHSAA calls a potato an apple doesn't make it one. 

[neverbreak 10]

1 hour ago, Coach Burton said:

If the governing body says it's the first round of the state tournament then it's the first round of the state tournament. That's pretty cut and dry.

Answer these two questions in defense of the governing body:

Why don't the team points carry over to the Final Round of State?

How can an individual have a loss or three during the state tournament and still be considered the state champion?  (please give me another sport where in the state tournament an individual or team can have a loss outside of qualifying events and be the champ.)

 

[neverbreak 10]

8 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Except for the fact that if it is truly part of the same tournament, team points would carry over.  The fact that you can lose a match one week and win a state title the next week also suggests they are two very different tournaments.  State champs don't lose a match in the state tournament, historically.  Just because the KHSAA calls a potato an apple doesn't make it one. 

Beat me to the punch

[Coach Burton 15]

1 hour ago, GentleBeard said:

Except for the fact that if it is truly part of the same tournament, team points would carry over.  The fact that you can lose a match one week and win a state title the next week also suggests they are two very different tournaments.  State champs don't lose a match in the state tournament, historically.  Just because the KHSAA calls a potato an apple doesn't make it one. 

John Smith lost a match in the Olympics in 1992 and still won gold.  Is his medal invalid?

[neverbreak 10]

10 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

John Smith lost a match in the Olympics in 1992 and still won gold.  Is his medal invalid?

Good idea bring back classification points for high school wrestling.

[GentleBeard 145]

18 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

John Smith lost a match in the Olympics in 1992 and still won gold.  Is his medal invalid?

Surely you're not comparing the KHSAA State tournament in 2022 (as well as its precedent) to that of the Olympics in 1992? 

[Coach Burton 15]

I was just pointing out another reason for why you guys were wrong and how there is precedent for tournaments that allow competitors to lose and then come back and win the title.

[neverbreak 10]

7 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

I was just pointing out another reason for why you guys were wrong and how there is precedent for tournaments that allow competitors to lose and then come back and win the title.

Let me know when you can figure out an answer for the following questions.

Why don't the team points carry over to the Final Round of State?

How can an individual have a loss or three during the state tournament and still be considered the state champion?  (please give me another sport where in the state tournament an individual or team can have a loss outside of qualifying events and be the champ.)

I have bolded and underlined some key words to help avoid the inclusion of information that does not pertain to the KHSAA STATE TOURNAMENT.

[CoachC 115]

44 minutes ago, Coach Burton said:

John Smith lost a match in the Olympics in 1992 and still won gold.  Is his medal invalid?

This only applies when vertical pairing is used. It has never applied to line bracketing.

[Coach Burton 15]

2 hours ago, CoachC said:

This only applies when vertical pairing is used. It has never applied to line bracketing.

Yeah, but we've never had to make changes to the state tournament because of a pandemic either.  Regardless, if the KHSAA says it's the first round of the state tournament then it's the first round of the state tournament.  They can make it any format they wish. It's their tournament.  Just think of it as the qualifying heat, like in track or swimming.  The top eight advance regardless of who beat who.

[neverbreak 10]

4 hours ago, Coach Burton said:

Yeah, but we've never had to make changes to the state tournament because of a pandemic either.  Regardless, if the KHSAA says it's the first round of the state tournament then it's the first round of the state tournament.  They can make it any format they wish. It's their tournament.  Just think of it as the qualifying heat, like in track or swimming.  The top eight advance regardless of who beat who.

So you admit that it is simply a qualifying event.  Sort of like region is a qualifying event for First round of state or whatever the heck they are calling it.  First round of state is a qualifying event for Final Round  of State.  
 

This weekend is literally another qualifying event regardless of the nomenclature used by the KHSAA.

[Coach Burton 15]

23 minutes ago, neverbreak said:

So you admit that it is simply a qualifying event.  Sort of like region is a qualifying event for First round of state or whatever the heck they are calling it.  First round of state is a qualifying event for Final Round  of State.  
 

This weekend is literally another qualifying event regardless of the nomenclature used by the KHSAA.

No, because the KHSAA, the governing body of the sport in our state, says it's the first round of the state tournament.  Since they have full and total authority on the matter, it is the first round of the state tournament, regardless of format.  It is their discretion on if team points carry over or not.  It is their discretion on whether a wrestler can lose in one round and still win the tournament.  You don't have to like it, but since it is their tournament, they get to dictate such matters.

[gator1 32]

A 100M sprinter 

19 hours ago, neverbreak said:

How can an individual have a loss or three during the state tournament and still be considered the state champion?  (please give me another sport where in the state tournament an individual or team can have a loss outside of qualifying events and be the champ.)

Track and field.  A sprinter can make the state tournament, lose (but qualify) in a preliminary heat, then win a state championship. Yes it's a "qualifying heat" but it's also part of the championship.  Just not the finals.  Not that complicated.  

[neverbreak 10]

2 hours ago, gator1 said:

A 100M sprinter 

Track and field.  A sprinter can make the state tournament, lose (but qualify) in a preliminary heat, then win a state championship. Yes it's a "qualifying heat" but it's also part of the championship.  Just not the finals.  Not that complicated.  

My point has always been, that this weekend is a qualifying event.  Not the state finals!  Just like you pointed out in your response you have heats, prelims, but they are not actually the state finals until medals are won.  If you go back to my original post on this thread it literally was all sarcasm.

I agree with Coach Burton the KHSAA can call it whatever they want, it doesn't change what it is, a qualifying event.

[Raiders Wrestling 62]

I said this the other day and it still holds true I believe for a lot of us coaches and fans. I hated most things about the Horsepark from its to cold for kids to weigh in with doors open to dirt floors but regardless of what we call or don't call their tourney none of us like where we are I believe including KHSAA. So name it call it whatever you want but now that mask are gone or optional for all lets all just hope that money will get back where it should be and we can find a better place to host and get back to real normal next season or in the near future. 

[grappler-of-old 44]

1 hour ago, panthers said:

I said this the other day and it still holds true I believe for a lot of us coaches and fans. I hated most things about the Horsepark from its to cold for kids to weigh in with doors open to dirt floors but regardless of what we call or don't call their tourney none of us like where we are I believe including KHSAA. So name it call it whatever you want but now that mask are gone or optional for all lets all just hope that money will get back where it should be and we can find a better place to host and get back to real normal next season or in the near future. 

 I'm holding my breath for this to become true.