State Duals

[halfhalfhalf 121]

53 minutes ago, coachteater said:

Like I said before, we've tried to set a single date, it won't pass. The kywca have brought.it up multiple times and for that very reason. But too many are against it because of the fact they have small section duals and feel it's a wasted sat, or they have other places they want to go 

Give small school teams the option to move to large school if they want too. Also keeping it at the same location is something I think needs to happen. When we have gone in the past when one dual is over it was fun to watch some of the large school teams wrestle. 

[Robert.Dezember 4]

Indiana allows schools to move up divisions. They must meet certain criteria. Rankings, ect.     I know Mater Dei is 2A, might even be 1A for state duals, but they compete in 3A.

I'm sure we could come up with something to allow this to happen for schools who wish to compete in a larger school division.

[halfhalfhalf 121]

12 minutes ago, Robert.Dezember said:

Indiana allows schools to move up divisions. They must meet certain criteria. Rankings, ect.     I know Mater Dei is 2A, might even be 1A for state duals, but they compete in 3A.

I'm sure we could come up with something to allow this to happen for schools who wish to compete in a larger school division.

Coach Dezember I hope you are doing well! 

[grappler-of-old 44]

OK lets see if I can wrap this all up in a bow. 

Large schools have less than a problem than small schools in general. Most have full teams or close to them.  Those that don't probably won't qualify for the state duals anyway.  

Now for the sceduling problem.  What many don't realize is that the schools along the boarders probably spend most of their time out of state.  This is for many reasons, I know in Nky it is for two reasons. 1. competition-- they can go into Ohio and get better competition than they can get in state.  Mostly because the .tournaments are larger.  Ohio has many more teams than KY.   2.  Travel--Nky can travel 30 minutes into Ohio or travel 1-2 hours into Ky.  When you weigh the 2 its easier and makes more sense to travel into Ohio. Imagine if you had to leave at 6am every weekend to wrestle and not get home untill midnight. I know that the teams near the Indiana and Illinios boarder have the same scenerio.  

If you try and set a sectional on a set weekend that takes away from their competiton in other states.  Could you imagine if the sectionals were on the same date as the GMV, the Coaches Classic or the Mater Dai Tourney?  The teams the would likely qualify would get little to no competiton on that date and loose out on competition elswhere. 

The small schools problem is a whole different animal.  As stated.  Many of these teams are not full.  You may wrestle a dual where only 4-8 actual matches occur. The teams that will qualify probably have full teams or very close to full.  Why would they waste a weekend to wrestle maybe 2 matches (many of which would not be competitive for thier better wrestlers) for each of their kids when they can co to a tourney and get 3-5 quality matches. 

Here is my pet peeve.  The rules state that if a team does not participate then they are not eligable for the next year.  This to me is silly expecially for the small schools. Why would a team that has only 4-6 wrestlers want to compete?  Now this same team may have 10 or more wrestlers one year and if they didn't wrestle the year before they are ineligable. For those of you who know small schools this happens often.  A team may get a group of 5-8 freshman out one year and compete for 3-4 years then fall back to a having only 4 or 5 kids on the team, waiting for the next group of freshman to come out again in 3 to 4 years. 

As always:

These are the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less.  In the grand scale of things they mean very little.  

GOO out. 

[depperschmidt 140]

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2016‎ ‎9‎:‎17‎:‎47‎, rjs4470 said:

Sounds good in theory, but since you can't guarantee the school's with 1-8 wrestlers will all be in the same weight class it still won't work.  For example...small school team A has 7 wrestlers, all in the first 7 weight classes, 106 through 145lbs.  Team B has 6 wrestlers, 152lbs through 220lb.  Not a single match to be wrestled.  Now that's an extreme example, but in all likelihood, if you did it the way you recommend, there's a good chance each dual would have only a handful of matches.  The only way your plan works is if the majority of each small school's wrestlers are all in the same weight classes, which isn't likely.  Sorry, but duals just don't work if teams don't have close to full lineups, and teams with low numbers just aren't going to do that type of event. 

 

I agree, this would not be a feasible solution.  O.K. we will need to attack the issue from another angle.

   I propose, eliminate the Big/Small school format altogether.  We don't water down our state champions by having 3-4 divisions and 3-4 state champs in each weight class. or 3 different school titles.  So why do it for a Duels title?  Also, let's eliminate Goo's  annoyance as well

Before the beginning of the year, any team who wishes to compete for the title, submits a entry. Sectionals to be held on the second weekend of January (for example). if a school with a low # of wrestlers wishes to enter or not FINE , no penalty for the next year if their numbers increase. Let the coaches decide what is best for their team.

  Now some teams may enter without the hope of winning, but get a couple of matches in for their wrestlers. or they may be able to do better elsewhere.  And as a added benefit to us fans we don't have to try and decide which duel championship to attend. all the best teams will be at one location.

[coachteater 70]

The division of small and big was made to help try to grow wrestling. It gives small schools more opportunity to compete at a state level against teams who pull from the same size pool as them. If the powers that decide on to have a team or not feel like there is never a chance to compete, they may be less likely to let the team start. 

The point I think everyone misses is they just think about what's best for their team. The kywca is putting things together to try to build wrestling as a whole and for the future. 

[CUTiger184 59]

I agree, small school and large school needs to stay. It allows small schools to compete at the "state" level and it will help grow the sport at those smaller schools.  Any positive attention a small school can garner from success at a state event, can help tremendously for getting kids out to wrestle.  I would love for both small/large school to be held at one venue.  Robert Ervin and the Union County staff went above and beyond their calling last year with hosting the event.  It was an awesome event and yes it was a little far away but the western KY teams do not fuss when they have to come all the way to Lexington to compete in Feb.  I know its tough to do, but it is also fun to have 12 mats laid out and the best teams in KY competing for a state title in their respective classes.  I would love to have KY move the state tournament back a week, so our respective NAIA teams in KY can attend the state tournament and see what KY has to offer for prospective collegiate wrestlers.  NAIA East Region is the third weekend of Feb every year, so Coach James, Ruff, Fleeger, and Adams cannot attend due to their National Qualifier. 

[CUTiger184 59]

Kudos to Coach McCoy, Ervin, Bankemper, and a few others have put so much effort into growing wrestling in the state through KYWCA.  We need more coaches to be involved and do what they can do to promote the sport.  Three or four people cant be expected to handle all state affairs.  

[depperschmidt 140]

I love it! cannot fix that which is broken.  So I would like to Know what is the percentage of Union County winning the small school division against the rest of the field.  95%-98%?  has any other small school won this event since breaking into sub groups? I think, that as long as the playing field is so unbalanced there will continue to be many schools who wish to opt out of this. Just because of a schools size has nothing to do with the team that school fields. I saw a movie about a small school in Indiana that overcame the challenge of school size to win what everyone said was out of their reach.  Everyone knows Union can compete in the big boys club. Don't you think they would want the extra challenge? I do not think that forcing teams into a event they cannot win will grow the sport. Instead... place a big carrot on top of the hill hanging from a tree branch. and let the teams that think they have a shot at the prize jump in. and challenge the rest of the schools to get their #s up so they can play too! There will always be the dynasty's  Union, Woodford, X, Trinity, Campbell, Fern and others who will  be plying for the title. But every so often when the stars align a underdog team will appear from nowhere and have the makings to do things that people will tell stories about for years, and possibly another movie too.  I'm done rattling on about this topic. Good luck to all.

[CUTiger184 59]

56 minutes ago, depperschmidt said:

I love it! cannot fix that which is broken.  So I would like to Know what is the percentage of Union County winning the small school division against the rest of the field.  95%-98%?  has any other small school won this event since breaking into sub groups? I think, that as long as the playing field is so unbalanced there will continue to be many schools who wish to opt out of this. Just because of a schools size has nothing to do with the team that school fields. I saw a movie about a small school in Indiana that overcame the challenge of school size to win what everyone said was out of their reach.  Everyone knows Union can compete in the big boys club. Don't you think they would want the extra challenge? I do not think that forcing teams into a event they cannot win will grow the sport. Instead... place a big carrot on top of the hill hanging from a tree branch. and let the teams that think they have a shot at the prize jump in. and challenge the rest of the schools to get their #s up so they can play too! There will always be the dynasty's  Union, Woodford, X, Trinity, Campbell, Fern and others who will  be plying for the title. But every so often when the stars align a underdog team will appear from nowhere and have the makings to do things that people will tell stories about for years, and possibly another movie too.  I'm done rattling on about this topic. Good luck to all.

Depperschmidt, I failed to mention that I do agree that small schools who wish to compete against big schools should be allowed to as Coach Dezember alluded to earlier in this thread.  I always love an under dog story as well.  I'm sure the KYWCA will hear your argument and even consider it. I say go through the chain of communication and propose it to them. All the guys I know on there are open to new ideas and ways to better the state in wrestling. 

[Robert.Dezember 4]

I really think we should keep the large school/small school format. I'm not opposed to even starting a third division. (Small, medium and large) I do think it creates a lot of exposer to more schools and helps more programs across the state,  Although I feel we should use a coaching system employed by the IHSAA wrestling  coaches association. I don't think we need qualifying tourney's.  Schools for each division is done by school size and rank. The association can vote and place schools by strength in divisions which they can compete. I think this is a win win  for all. If your team would win 1a, 2a or 3a, wonderful!!  Also, 3A is now guaranteed to be the best. More schools will take home more hardware and will be recognized in their community and we also will know the best dual meet team in the state. I've seen the formula Indiana uses and I'm sure it can work for Kentucky. I also feel this meet needs to be done in the same location. The bigger the better. Indiana is thinking about using the Ford center in Evansville next year. Owensboro has a nice gym that can work well for this, but I'm sure their are other facilities around as well. Lets look at how Indiana does their Dual State Tourney. Lets try and develop a solid tourney that brings in a lot of teams and is balanced.

[Robert.Dezember 4]

Wouldn't be neat if we could host a state dual tourney at Western Kentucky university and have three divisions with with 27 teams showing up. Maybe this could also help to influence local people to question and maybe even start programs in that region of the state.

[Givemethatdouble 6]

I agree with Robert December here . we book it there I believe schools would start having wrestling there. Also I believe if we are going to be strict about teams participation we do it state wide sectionals the same day. Heck who knows large venues can host both small and large and at the end have both champs battle it out 

[grappler-of-old 44]

Why do the sectionals have to be done in on setting?  What I mean is why can't it be done in several days?  Make it mandatory that each team in the sectionals wrestle each other in a dual before a certain date.  That way there can be several locations on several different days.  Teams could hold a tri or quad meet on several weekdays throughout the first month and a half.  

 

Would this not boost the exposure?  After all the teams have wrestled then look at the records and use criteria to decide who goes if there is a tie. If there is a three way tie in one sectional then the team that was left out would get the 1st available open slot in the tourney. 

[grappler-of-old 44]

5 hours ago, Robert.Dezember said:

Wouldn't be neat if we could host a state dual tourney at Western Kentucky university and have three divisions with with 27 teams showing up. Maybe this could also help to influence local people to question and maybe even start programs in that region of the state.

I believe this idea is why the duals tourney is now rotating around the state.  

[coachteater 70]

It got split because it was so hard finding somewhere cost effective and in good location to host that many teams/ mats in one place. So now because each is smaller, it allows more schools to be able to host and we felt it was fair to move it around and be good not to be in the same place every year. 

I would love to see one day a state duals all in one big  place and have fans come like state. But we are just not to that point yet. I think with expanding youth and m.s. programs, we will see greater number in high school is the next 5-10 years. I think that growth will bring on the growth of state duals as well. 

[Josh_Claywell 52]

I kind of like Mr. Dezember's idea of splitting it into three divisions. But I'll add my proposal to that: split them in small, large and open divisions, with teams having the option of competing in the open division no matter the size. On top of that, make teams to commit to that division for a minimum of two years, which prevents teams from jumping back and forth.

[plantmanky1 58]

On 1/15/2016, 7:39:38, coachteater said:

It got split because it was so hard finding somewhere cost effective and in good location to host that many teams/ mats in one place. So now because each is smaller, it allows more schools to be able to host and we felt it was fair to move it around and be good not to be in the same place every year. 

I would love to see one day a state duals all in one big  place and have fans come like state. But we are just not to that point yet. I think with expanding youth and m.s. programs, we will see greater number in high school is the next 5-10 years. I think that growth will bring on the growth of state duals as well. 

Always had the mindset that it would be neat to have HS and MS State duels at the same time in the same venue.  (they are on the same date on schedule anyways why not.)  Issue has always been a facility big enough to host it.  We may have found one, we will know in a few weeks.  I do know this, being this is a KWCA event im sure the KWCA and KSWA could pull it off. 

[NatureBoy 117]

 Of course it stinks /sucks for Ryle if they host and do not get to wrestle ,its wrestling not capitalism good they get to see the sport it would be like making a lady go to six flags without getting a shot at space mountain  .The Nature Boy gets so sick of Hearing the same old crybaby story every year about state duals its always how UNION is so good lol woe is them they have to compete in small school lets toot the Union horn some more ,I mean seriously they get to wrestle at state against every one else  so they get their chance to prove what they got the division is obviously good for the sport adds new dimensions and scenarios for everyone for gods sake enough already everyone knows union is good and should win small school if its such an issue they can simply have their own duals and invite who they want and if they do not show or decline Union can declare themselves undisputed champs HS and middle school the same day huh well what about the middle school kids who are on HS rosters ???? and it would be a cluster more than likely keeping things to a nice number and uniform leaves room for less problems or issues  .

I don't think any decent coach or wrestler is looking to rest up I think they  want the matches and state duals are just that free matches that do not count against their weigh inns so who wouldn't want em . of course even at state duals when you run up against a Horsemen you usually get forfeits anyway even from the best of the best  and it aint because of injury scares its because when you Face a Horseman you know your facing the best  the sport has to offer today  and you may never be the same after you are shown just how behind the times you are ,Whoooooo and that's the bottom line

[Josh_Claywell 52]

Well now you're just mixing your pro wrestling catchphrases ...

[gh0pper 45]

What is a Horseman? I'm confused.

[depperschmidt 140]

I saw a Great movie a long time ago that had a horseman in it. He was a revered cowboy. the name of the movie was "The man from snowy river.   a must see for horse lovers

[grappler-of-old 44]

the state duals do count against your weigh ins.  It is not a KHSAA sanctioned event.

 

[NatureBoy 117]

I wondered about that ,In Ohio they do not I was told and since they are not Khsaa sanctioned I did not think they would count against a weigh in ,It doesn't make sense ,

What is a Horseman , SERIOUSLY the greatest assemblage of Wrestling Talent Charisma Skill and know how in the history of Mankind .

The Four Horsemen

in all Honesty the Horsemen are probably more responsible for kids getting involved in wrestling than any four wrestlers in history in one way or Another ..

Considering state duals are strictly the best teams from around the state or are supposed to be just that then it is worth a weigh in I would think .