State Tournament Brackets

[grappler-of-old 44]

 

Finally, your comment about the "kids" what is the difference between second and third?

Second is the 1st loser     

[marriedtothemat 13]

One of the reasons the MS is able to seed is because they do have a district, region and state. Its a 16 man bracket (not saying I want to return to this) with only 8 regional champs to seed.

Actually middle school only has 4 region champs to seed. There are 8 districts where top 4 kids from each district qualify for regions. Then 4 regions where top 4 kids from each region qualify for state. The 4 region champs are then seeded.

[Coach Wagers 43]

I will bite on this.  This is my first year coaching in Kentucky (past 6 years in Ohio).  I found it very unfortunate to see the state brackets and hear that everything is a complete random draw.  It makes it very unfortunate that some kids who "should" place won't, and some who "shouldn't" will.  I'm not taking anything away from any of the guys who place, because it takes work to get there no matter how you get there.  Yes, the cream will rise to the top, as they always do, however from my perspective you would believe that the state would want the best kids in the finals all the way around.  There are upsets and guys who should have been the champ end up going for 3/4 or even 5/6 but the opportunity to create good wrestling through each match would be to seperate the kids in an orderly fashion.  Looking at some of these brackets (HWY seems HORRIBLE) it just shows as an unfortunate draw for quite a few. 

 

In Ohio they do seed the state tournament, and the coaches have ZERO say in how it's drawn.  They do not go off of rankings either.  Your placement on the bracket is random, however if you are a returning placer and a district champ then you are seeded 1, 2, 3, or 4 (only 16 qualify).  They only seed the district champs, based off of returning criteria.  So if you win districts, and placed the year before you will be seeded.  If you win districts and have no criteria, then it's random.  EX: 2 returning placers will be seperated and the other 2 champs who have no criteria will random fall into the other 2 slots. Then obviously everyone else falls into place.  It is not that difficult to do, even with a 32 man bracket, I mean heck you only need to navigate 8 kids, then everyone else falls in. There have been times that the finals match happened in the semi's, but more often than not, the finals are the finals.

 

Yes this does make for some really good QTRS/SEMIS here in KY, but it is so lopsided in some weight classes that the finals matches will not hold a candle to what took place in the QTRS.

I feel to provide the best competition, and the best wrestling for the state and for the boys who have gone through blood sweat and tears they should seed at least the top 8 region champs.  However, in this first year of coaching in KY, I'm figuring out that the KHSAA is quite a bit different than the things I am used too.......

 

I think 32 is a large bracket for this, on the flip side I don't think there are enough numbers to qualify 3 weeks just yet.  You would have to combine some regions for a district tourney; you would have to combine 4 regions to create a 16 man bracket, but then would only end up with 8 kids in the state tourney, where would the remaining 8 come from to create a 16 man bracket?  Unless you chagned the number of qualifiers, etc....  I just don't think the numbers are quite there to justify this. 

[neverbreak 10]

And third probably lost to the same guy!  my point exactly.

 

The takedownartist acts like anyone who is not 100% convinced that seeding is the way to go is totally against it.  If I felt there was possible way to seed a 32 man bracket I would be on board and even back the idea, but at this point I have not heard of any, so I am satisfied with separating region placers and random drawing.  If this makes me unrealistic then so be it!

[Coach Wagers 43]

Actually middle school only has 4 region champs to seed. There are 8 districts where top 4 kids from each district qualify for regions. Then 4 regions where top 4 kids from each region qualify for state. The 4 region champs are then seeded.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Remember in MS, you are dealing with clubs, and the numbers are larger due to a lot of schools can enter more than 1 wrestler per weight right?  That is harder to accomplish in HS, it would be more difficult to fill the brackets.

[trithis 34]

The ms has done this the last 2 years with no issues (to my knowledge). We have a conference call the Sunday or Monday night after region. This year the call lasted less than 2 hrs. (Including delays for background noise and waiting for all the beeps to stop as folks dial in and doing a roll call). It's not really all that hard. We have about 90% participation rate. The couple of coaches who don't participate just have their kids thrown in unless another coach has information to share. Actually, it would be easier for HS because of all the information on track.

Or a coach has you on the line to do it for them. 

[neverbreak 10]

People keep saying seed the region champs...that is proving my point yeah it might fix the lopsided brackets in some cases but brackets will still be lopsided.  

 

Example:

 

region - ranked guys

 

1 - 1,3,4,8

2 - 2,7

3 - 5

4 - 6

5 - no ranked

6 - no ranked

7 - no ranked

8 - no ranked

 

This scenario which happens quite often example region 6 145 and 132 this year alone.

 

If you seed the region champs you have to random draw the 3,4,8,7 in the bracket and 4 kids out of the top 8 would be seeded.  Still have the possibility of a stacked bracket does it decrease the chances absolutely, but it is still not fair to the ranked guys who are drawn in.  Factor in the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3, then you might keep a tough match out of the mix until the qtrs but that usually happens with the current system as well.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Neverbreak;   I am with you on this.  I have been one of the few that have been against seeding for years. Mostly because I don't think it is possible.  What Coach Wagers says makes a little sense.  But even if we did that others would say will thats not fair. Even though he was a qualifier last year and we were not we beat him so we should be seeded higher.  

 

It's a never ending process.  That's how I came up with going back to the 3 week scenario with a twist.  5 qualify for regional tourney.  (region can still be 1 day with a 10 man bracket) then qualify eight to state. (keeps the 32 man bracket) which will separate the 4 regional champs into semi finals. This allows the kids to decide some of the seeds.  

[8798 45]

I will bite on this.  This is my first year coaching in Kentucky (past 6 years in Ohio).  I found it very unfortunate to see the state brackets and hear that everything is a complete random draw.  It makes it very unfortunate that some kids who "should" place won't, and some who "shouldn't" will.  I'm not taking anything away from any of the guys who place, because it takes work to get there no matter how you get there.  Yes, the cream will rise to the top, as they always do, however from my perspective you would believe that the state would want the best kids in the finals all the way around.  There are upsets and guys who should have been the champ end up going for 3/4 or even 5/6 but the opportunity to create good wrestling through each match would be to seperate the kids in an orderly fashion.  Looking at some of these brackets (HWY seems HORRIBLE) it just shows as an unfortunate draw for quite a few. 

 

In Ohio they do seed the state tournament, and the coaches have ZERO say in how it's drawn.  They do not go off of rankings either.  Your placement on the bracket is random, however if you are a returning placer and a district champ then you are seeded 1, 2, 3, or 4 (only 16 qualify).  They only seed the district champs, based off of returning criteria.  So if you win districts, and placed the year before you will be seeded.  If you win districts and have no criteria, then it's random.  EX: 2 returning placers will be seperated and the other 2 champs who have no criteria will random fall into the other 2 slots. Then obviously everyone else falls into place.  It is not that difficult to do, even with a 32 man bracket, I mean heck you only need to navigate 8 kids, then everyone else falls in. There have been times that the finals match happened in the semi's, but more often than not, the finals are the finals.

 

Yes this does make for some really good QTRS/SEMIS here in KY, but it is so lopsided in some weight classes that the finals matches will not hold a candle to what took place in the QTRS.

I feel to provide the best competition, and the best wrestling for the state and for the boys who have gone through blood sweat and tears they should seed at least the top 8 region champs.  However, in this first year of coaching in KY, I'm figuring out that the KHSAA is quite a bit different than the things I am used too.......

 

I think 32 is a large bracket for this, on the flip side I don't think there are enough numbers to qualify 3 weeks just yet.  You would have to combine some regions for a district tourney; you would have to combine 4 regions to create a 16 man bracket, but then would only end up with 8 kids in the state tourney, where would the remaining 8 come from to create a 16 man bracket?  Unless you chagned the number of qualifiers, etc....  I just don't think the numbers are quite there to justify this. 

 

Referring to the last paragraph...the current Regions were the old Districts, for the most part.  Then the two Districts in an area would come together the next weekend for the Regional tournament...a step dissolved by the use of the 32 man bracket.  There were 4 Regionals with four wrestlers qualifying out of each for the 16 man State bracket.

 

What was suggested was having 4 Regionals which would allow 8 qualifiers per Regional, making the total of 32 wrestlers per class.  I would agree that our numbers may not be suitable for a three weekend series, but it seems to be a good option and it would involve little to no seeding.  We currently have about 100 schools that offer wrestling.  There were around 70 when we had the 16 man bracket.  One could argue that we do not even need a 32 man bracket if you consider that we are allowing about 33% of our varsity wrestlers to be state qualifiers.  Of course, I can see support for the 16 and 32 man brackets...dead horse.

[grappler-of-old 44]

using your example neverbreak.

 

The 1 and 2 would be separated with the 3rd seed on the same side as the 2nd seed. 

 

Worst case scenario is that the 2 and 3 meet in the quarters then the 2 would meet the 4 in the semi's. 

 

Still kind of better than what could happen otherwise. 

 

Geez look at me: arguing for seeding.  Man the snow must be getting to me. 

[mcx 11]

Referring to the last paragraph...the current Regions were the old Districts, for the most part.  Then the two Districts in an area would come together the next weekend for the Regional tournament...a step dissolved by the use of the 32 man bracket.  There were 4 Regionals with four wrestlers qualifying out of each for the 16 man State bracket.

 

What was suggested was having 4 Regionals which would allow 8 qualifiers per Regional, making the total of 32 wrestlers per class.  I would agree that our numbers may not be suitable for a three weekend series, but it seems to be a good option and it would involve little to no seeding.  We currently have about 100 schools that offer wrestling.  There were around 70 when we had the 16 man bracket.  One could argue that we do not even need a 32 man bracket if you consider that we are allowing about 33% of our varsity wrestlers to be state qualifiers.  Of course, I can see support for the 16 and 32 man brackets...dead horse.

 

Why do you see support for both brackets?

[neverbreak 10]

going with what takedownartist brought up before (we are old pre 32 man bracket old).  When we had district region and state I saw kids from my region miss going to state who I know would have placed if they could have qualified from a weaker region.  Either way if someone gets it approved and the system works I am all for it but right now noone has convinced me it will work with our current 32 man bracket and qualifying events.

[Coach Wagers 43]

using your example neverbreak.

 

The 1 and 2 would be separated with the 3rd seed on the same side as the 2nd seed. 

 

Worst case scenario is that the 2 and 3 meet in the quarters then the 2 would meet the 4 in the semi's. 

 

Still kind of better than what could happen otherwise. 

 

Geez look at me: arguing for seeding.  Man the snow must be getting to me. 

I was typing this at the same time, I guess GOO has faster fingers!

 

That scenario if you used the Ohio format (pending that was last years placements) would seperate all the guys, and create better semi's and better finals.  That bracket wouldn't be so lopsided, unless I'm seeing this wrong

[Coach Wagers 43]

Referring to the last paragraph...the current Regions were the old Districts, for the most part.  Then the two Districts in an area would come together the next weekend for the Regional tournament...a step dissolved by the use of the 32 man bracket.  There were 4 Regionals with four wrestlers qualifying out of each for the 16 man State bracket.

 

So the old regionals was a 8 man tourney?  Top 4 from 2 districts?

[neverbreak 10]

I was just throwing out numbers but it is still possible to have 2385 or 6 all on the same side of the bracket!

 

This is similar to the HWT bracket except the 1 and 2 are separated.

[Bluesdad 73]

I to would be for seeding the High School state tourney but even with seeding its not a sure thing. The middle school seeds its 4 regional champions and it works good for the most part but it still doesn't guarantee much. At this years middle school tourney they were only 1 weight that came out with the top 4 seeded kids placing top 4. The 80lb class came out the top 4 placing exactly how they were seeded with 2 number 2 seeds placing 5th and 6th.

[8798 45]

So the old regionals was a 8 man tourney?  Top 4 from 2 districts?

Yes sir.  They had two Districts that would feed into one Region...top four from district went on to the Region.  Then, top four out or region went on to State.  Eight Districts, Four Regionals, State.

[acewing 5]

FWIW, Indiana does a blind draw on most sports. You could have the state's two top-ranked football teams meet in the first round and a winless team get a bye.

I don't laziness on the state's part to say it's "fair" so they don't have to put in the work and hear the bitching.

[8798 45]

Why do you see support for both brackets?

 

I was not a fan of the 32 man bracket when it was announced, but have since come to see some merit to it.  More participants has led to more spectators which has led to more interest which has led to more involvement....which has been great.  When you allow 1/3 of the wrestlers to qualify for the State Championship, however, it does take some of the luster out of it.

[8798 45]

FWIW, Indiana does a blind draw on most sports. You could have the state's two top-ranked football teams meet in the first round and a winless team get a bye.

I don't laziness on the state's part to say it's "fair" so they don't have to put in the work and hear the bitching.

 

That is correct, but the team sport is a bit different from the individual.  When the team loses...the team is done.  When the individual loses, he can still move on unless it is in the qualification round.  I see what you are saying, however.

[B10grapple 7]

I was typing this at the same time, I guess GOO has faster fingers!

 

That scenario if you used the Ohio format (pending that was last years placements) would seperate all the guys, and create better semi's and better finals.  That bracket wouldn't be so lopsided, unless I'm seeing this wrong

I definitely support reseeding the tournament.  However to attempt to model it after Ohio is apples vs. oranges.  Kentucky is not remotely the same in levels of participation or experience.  We need something that works for KY that grows the sport in all regions, including those not directly adjacent to our northern neighbors such as Ohio, Indiana, Illinois.  Once the sport has grown, then adapt.

[WHS98 34]

I beg to differ on the people that think does it really matter 2nd or 3rd.Ask the kids? So many of the kids over the years have said the same thing "I WANT TO WRESTLE UNDER THE LIGHTS" I have been hearing this from kids since elementary.If we seperate top 4 kids we have still improved. Just look no further than the ncaa in football,they only took 4 teams and the team that got robbed the most this year was TCU and even by their coaches own admission ,the system is better now than it was and he had more reason to be upset than anybody.The sport owes it to its wrestlers and fans to try and put the 2 best on the biggest stage,even if that doesn't turn out to be who most people thought im might be such as in the case as ohio state in football this year.

[Coach Wagers 43]

I definitely support reseeding the tournament.  However to attempt to model it after Ohio is apples vs. oranges.  Kentucky is not remotely the same in levels of participation or experience.  We need something that works for KY that grows the sport in all regions, including those not directly adjacent to our northern neighbors such as Ohio, Indiana, Illinois.  Once the sport has grown, then adapt.

 

The two states are apples vs oranges in referring to number of wrestlers, participation, experience, etc....  However none of those aspects matter when it comes to seeding a tourney.  The goal is still to seperate the best kids.  So modeling the seeding format after Ohio, PA, or whomever would still be better than total random draw like it is currently.  Pick a weight, take all 8 region champs, ascend them in order of returning placers and qualifying experience, then fill the rest in.  I would like to see if the lopsidedness of the brackets is mostly remedied.......

 

Keeping the 32 man bracket will help support all regions.  someone posted 33% of all wrestlers qualify, that is a good number, and a good way to get kids interested with an obtainable goal.  More so of switching it to 16 man brackets and a 3 week process would be something to adapt to after there is more growth.  Growth mainly comes from your youth programs however.  And I believe that over the next few years the numbers are growing rapidly based on the groups coming up. 

[B10grapple 7]

I understand now coach.  That does make more sense.  I think 33% is a good number.  I just never have thought it was a good idea to involve fewer than those we have making it to states.  The way to grow the sport is definitley through youth programs. 

[takedownartist 6]

District region state was done with a 16 man bracket for ever, 30 plus years and there were no problems , no need to restructure anything. Qualifying would be more difficult and some kids wouldn't get to go.

And Neverbreak if you cant distinguish the difference between the top few guys in state vs the rest well.....try to figure that out, might help ya or we could just have lop sided brackets which is so great to watch for state finals, we should random draw the NCAA bball tournament to right?

Really wonder what the Coaches association would vote??