Region 4 Championships

[IWIN 49]

Thanks planmanky1. Just trying to steer this thread back in the right direction.

[uk_rebel33 4]

Congrats to Johnson Co for putting on a well ran and organized region, especially given the bad weather.

 

A couple of the officials were horrible though.  The skinny ref thought everyone was their to see him bully kids.  He was out of control all day.  Kids shouldn't be penalized for doing a little fist pump after they win a match.  This is not a spelling bee.  The stakes are high and if kids don't show a little emotion then they shouldn't be wrestling.  He also threw out a Bourbon Co kid after he won the match and was being heckeled by a bunch of parents.  If anything, the parents should have been tossed for not being in the stands.  He definitely robbed this kid of an opportunity to wrestle in the finals.  Also, during the face offs he was trying to run the kids off the mat before they had an opportunity to shake their opponent's hand and take a photo.  He definitely shouldn't be involved doing anything with kids.

 

The official with the beard was just having a bad day.  He officiated 4-5 questionable matches where coaches had to call him over to the scorers table. Everyone has a bad day, but at some point the host school or the regional coaches need to step up and say "Dude its been a tough day for you.  Here is your check.  Your done for the day." 

 

And before I get blasted on here for saying this, I observed all of this from the stands and none of my wrestlers were involved in any of this.  No bias here.

 

I think the Region coaches should dictate how the tourney is ran, not the refs. Essentially they are hired contractors.

 

I know officiating is a tough and thankless job, but you have to keep in mind you are dealing with kids.  If wrestling is to grow it needs to be about the kids and not the refs who have a little man syndrome!

[Demolition 1]

Congrats to Johnson Co for putting on a well ran and organized region, especially given the bad weather.

 

A couple of the officials were horrible though.  The skinny ref thought everyone was their to see him bully kids.  He was out of control all day.  Kids shouldn't be penalized for doing a little fist pump after they win a match.  This is not a spelling bee.  The stakes are high and if kids don't show a little emotion then they shouldn't be wrestling.  He also threw out a Bourbon Co kid after he won the match and was being heckeled by a bunch of parents.  If anything, the parents should have been tossed for not being in the stands.  He definitely robbed this kid of an opportunity to wrestle in the finals.  Also, during the face offs he was trying to run the kids off the mat before they had an opportunity to shake their opponent's hand and take a photo.  He definitely shouldn't be involved doing anything with kids.

 

The official with the beard was just having a bad day.  He officiated 4-5 questionable matches where coaches had to call him over to the scorers table. Everyone has a bad day, but at some point the host school or the regional coaches need to step up and say "Dude its been a tough day for you.  Here is your check.  Your done for the day." 

 

And before I get blasted on here for saying this, I observed all of this from the stands and none of my wrestlers were involved in any of this.  No bias here.

 

I think the Region coaches should dictate how the tourney is ran, not the refs. Essentially they are hired contractors.

 

I know officiating is a tough and thankless job, but you have to keep in mind you are dealing with kids.  If wrestling is to grow it needs to be about the kids and not the refs who have a little man syndrome!

 

The bolded underlined....

I joined this board after reading your post uk_rebel33.  I know the "Skinny Ref" you are talking about.... and yes, I was at the meet Saturday.  He has been a high school referee for some time now, he refereed my brother when he was in school.  As a matter of fact, he told me today that this was his 3rd time getting to referee a middle school regional, as well as he getingt to referee the Region 7 high school meet in 2007.

 

Now, IMO, the kid from Bourbon Co. should have been ejected as well as the coach and scorekeeper  from Bourbon Co. that followed him across the gym for about 5 minutes.  The kid from Bourbon Co. showed the worst sportsmanship I have ever seen at a wrestling meet.  The way he acted after he pinned the JC kid and the ref hit him with unsportsmanlike conduct.... his coach should have took action and controlled his wrestler better.  "Attitude Reflects Leadership".  And from what I could tell, about 5 seconds later the kid from Bourbon Co. did the exact same thing and the ref hit him with flagrant misconduct and ejected him from the meet.  And to be honest, if I was a coach, and I had a wrestler act like that.... there is no way I would let him wrestle until his attitude changed.... I don't care if it was the state finals.  There is no excuse for a middle school aged kid acting like that.

 

Most people had left by the time the heavyweight finals.... but the kid from EJ Fields was also ejected for flagrant misconduct.  He was hit three times during the match for locking hands... on his 3rd penalty, he yelled at one of the referee's and said "I'M NOT LOCKING MY HANDS!!"  The younger referee was doing the match and hit him with an Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty.  And before the ref could finish giving the penalty, the kid from EJ Fields started cussing and walked off the mat hitting and kicking stuff in his way.  Then the ref hit him with a flagrant misconduct.

 

As far as "trying to run kids off the mat" is a JOKE!  If the parents really wanted a picture they would have been right up on the mat.  But it looked like to me that the kids had no idea what to do after they got out there. 

 

 

Wrestling is the most pure form of 1 on 1 competition.  If you coach wrestling, it is your duty to train these young men/women to be respectful competitors on and off the mat.  Middle school aged kids (12-15 years old) that are acting like this at a young age only will get worse as time goes on without the proper direction.  If kids at this age can't play by the rules now, what in the world makes you think they will get any better as they age.

Our nation's "Politicial Correctness" is ruining our young people.  Just because a kid can act up and do what ever they want at home and even in some school districts, and then when they break a rule and are punished by an authority figure... suddenly that authority figure "Is Out To Bully Kids" and "Out of Control"......... get real!!

[pmiller13 14]

Our heavy weight lost his cool and deserved to be disqualified. He is a good kid. We talked about it today. Part of our job is to teach wrestling, the other is to teach them about life.

[uk_rebel33 4]

From my point of view and other coaches who saw what happened, the JC parents were heckeling the kid at mat side.  I know the kid was a little agressive once after the whistle blew, but the ref should have addressed it then.  The coach handled it very well and was very calm and collected.  I would have blown up and I was impressed with his reaction to a bad situation.  The little man syndrome comes in here because the ref wouldn't even talk to the BC coach to explain the call and was very disrespectfull and ejected him for trying to get clarification.  A man is accountable for his actions and is willing to give a reason.  This ref ran off like a child to the locker room because he knew he was wrong.  The BC coach even tried to apologize later for any miscommunication, but the ref didn't even want to acknowlege him.  Obviously you must have been one of the parents at mat side that should have been in the stands.  If you polled the coaches and everyone in the stands, 95% would agree they ref was wrong.  This all happened right in front of me and I know I had one of the best views of the situation.

 

Outside of this situation, how can you justify other kids being hit with a unsportsman like conduct call for a fist pump after winning a tough match?  Maybe we should just teach our wrestlers to be robots and not have any emotions....Boy that would be fun to watch!  I can see if a wrestler is talking trash or being disrespectful to an opponent to get this call, but a fist pump unsportsman like?  Come on!

 

I even saw a parent yelling at the BC coach telling him that all of his kids were out of controll and how bad of a coach he was.  I thought it was funny when he told them that he only had 3 wrestlers and the kids that were accused of being his were from another school.  If you don't have your facts correct its best to stay quiet.

 

No one drove hours in the bad weather to watch this guy make calls and have a power trip on kids.  They were there to watch some of the best wrestlers in the state compete.  A better man would have patted those guys on the butt and said "nice job guys...way to compete,"

 

Hopefully this guy learns from his mistake and becomes a better official for it.

[Bluesdad 73]

The BC coach wasn't ejected.

The ref didn't run to the locker room, he took the bout sheet to the head table to explain what happened.

I'm not defending anyone or condoning any actions that took place. It was a bad situation on all fronts that I wished would've been avoided.

[Keepyourheadup 10]

Wasn't there and hate to hear that it happened , but no matter what the wrestler has to keep their composure. I know we are dealing with kids and at this age their brains and emotions are all over the place. So we can't just write off a kid and consider him or her a bad sport or bad kid from one situation . I'm speaking from experience. My own was one of the worst win he lost exspecaily win he thought he lost cause off a bad call. I have had to pull him out of a tournament in the past because of his actions. But off the mat he his one of the most quite and polite kids I know. He would help anyone that needed it. Over the years of talking to him and explaining things to him he has for the most part got it under controll on the mat after a lose. He still gets upset but most of the time he will go somewhere where he can't be seen and has his fit. I don't like him still melting down but at least he don't do in front of everyone. A lot of that has to do with his coaches and I just talking to him " a few threats" LOL but I think it's sinking in.

[KY-79 4]

Honestly, I have seen the BC kid before and he has a history of these antics... I've even seen him practically taunt a parent in the hallway during a tournament before so I wasn't really surprised with the way he acted. The Hayes kid at heavy was also out of line, it looked like his emotions got the better of him. I've heard that he hasn't been able to wrestle much this year so it could also be a lack of experience adding to it. I have talked to him before and he seems like a really nice kid so it was a shame to see that happen to him, but the refs didn't have much choice in that one. Another thing with the BC kid in his defense though, the JC parents were right on top of the mat during the whole match, which shouldn't have been allowed as the officials were running people off from that area all day long. And while his celebration earned him an unsportsmanlike penalty, there was another kid who jumped up and started pointing toward the stage after winning a match and nothing was done. If the refs are going to call it they need to call it both ways, but they also need to understand wrestling is an emotional sport.

[Bluesdad 73]

The kid did jump up and point for maybe 3 seconds, that was all. But no he didnt beat his chest, scream in the kids face, or hit the mat. Or during the match he didnt elbow the kid he's wrestling in the back of the head overly aggressive. He didn't wink at the crowd or blow kisses to his fans. He also didn't give the ref lip and neither did his coach. These may be a few reasons why it was handled differently.

[JDamron 4]

First off, I thought Johnson Central done a wonderful job hosting this tournament. Also, I feel like they made the right decision to not cancel/postpone the tournament.

The officiating, however, was abysmal. I know the referees have a very strenuous job. I know there are 1,000 things going on during a match. But they made bad calls ALL day. I don't think they showed favoritism toward one school but I just feel they were very inconsistent in their calls. They definitely DID run the kids off he mat during the face offs. We were there for over 12 hours but acted like they couldn't wait for the wrestlers to face off and let the competitors parents get a picture. Give them 5 seconds, they have worked very hard to make it to the finals!!

[KY-79 4]

The kid did jump up and point for maybe 3 seconds, that was all. But no he didnt beat his chest, scream in the kids face, or hit the mat. Or during the match he didnt elbow the kid he's wrestling in the back of the head overly aggressive. He didn't wink at the crowd or blow kisses to his fans. He also didn't give the ref lip and neither did his coach. These may be a few reasons why it was handled differently.

I don't disagree with you for the most part. I still don't like the pointing as it came across as showboating a little bit, and I heard people from several different teams point that out to me. But he in no way ever came close to what the BC kid did. I still feel the situation was worsened by allowing the JC parents right on the side of the mat like that, but I also feel that something like this was a long time coming after seeing some of the kid's prior antics. And for the gentleman complaining about officials running kids off the mat during face offs, I agree completely. They have face offs so the kids can walk to the middle and shake hands and actually face off for just a second for a photo op for the parents. The officiating was very inconsistent, but it was consistently inconsistent as such they were equally bad regardless of who was wrestling so as bad as it was, it was fair in that respect.

[Demolition 1]

For all the people complaining about the refereeing....  http://khsaa.org/coaches-officials/officiating-information/

 

Feel free to sign up... I'm sure those referee's you are talking about on here would love to have some help.

[Demolition 1]

And by the way....

 

If I was a coach and one my wrestler's acted the way the Bourbon Co. kid or EJ Fields HWY. acted.... he would never see a mat again.

If I was a parent and had a kid act the way the 2 mentioned kids acted..... they wouldn't have to worry about their coach or the referee...... I'd be on the mat faster than white on rice.

[JDamron 4]

I have decided to volunteer my time to coaching. I have no desire to be a referee. I do, however, expect the referees, who get a paycheck for their service, to make the right calls.

I did not see the HWY finals so I cannot comment. But I did see the match with the kid from BC. I do not think the kid handled himself well but I also do not think the referee, or the coaches from JC, should have allowed the parents to heckle the young man. That's just my opinion. No way I would have allowed one of my wrestlers to behave in such a manner.

[plantmanky1 58]

And by the way....

 

If I was a coach and one my wrestler's acted the way the Bourbon Co. kid or EJ Fields HWY. acted.... he would never see a mat again.

If I was a parent and had a kid act the way the 2 mentioned kids acted..... they wouldn't have to worry about their coach or the referee...... I'd be on the mat faster than white on rice.

 

So your part of the problem then is what your saying?  Parents have no business being on the mat (unless they are a coach for a team) unless they are called out to the mat for an injury situation.  More and more parents think they have some right to be right by the mat for matches.  Gyms have seating, seating is for parents and fans, and thats where they need to be.  

[rjs4470 103]

And by the way....

 

If I was a coach and one my wrestler's acted the way the Bourbon Co. kid or EJ Fields HWY. acted.... he would never see a mat again.

If I was a parent and had a kid act the way the 2 mentioned kids acted..... they wouldn't have to worry about their coach or the referee...... I'd be on the mat faster than white on rice.

And what would you do??  Yank him forcefully off the mat??  Yell and scream at him??  What would that solve other than escalating the situation??  I'm in no way defending the behavior.  But a parent running onto the mat to "discipline" their kid isn't making the situation better.

[Demolition 1]

And by the way....

 

If I was a coach and one my wrestler's acted the way the Bourbon Co. kid or EJ Fields HWY. acted.... he would never see a mat again.

If I was a parent and had a kid act the way the 2 mentioned kids acted..... they wouldn't have to worry about their coach or the referee...... I'd be on the mat faster than white on rice.

 

 

So your part of the problem then is what your saying?  Parents have no business being on the mat (unless they are a coach for a team) unless they are called out to the mat for an injury situation.  More and more parents think they have some right to be right by the mat for matches.  Gyms have seating, seating is for parents and fans, and thats where they need to be.  

 

 

And what would you do??  Yank him forcefully off the mat??  Yell and scream at him??  What would that solve other than escalating the situation??  I'm in no way defending the behavior.  But a parent running onto the mat to "discipline" their kid isn't making the situation better.

 

Growing up, the school system I went to didn't have an elementary or middle school program.... BUT, when I did play sports in grade and middle school, my dad did jerk me off a basketball floor one time.  I got mad and threw the ball at a kid.  Before my coach or the referee's could get to me... my dad had me by the jersey and was headed to the exit door.  And let me tell you, it only took ONE TIME for that to happen..... and let me tell you, it worked.

 

Kids, for the most part, aren't taught disicpline at home these days.  The schools try, but then people file complaints.  Coaches try and they have kids quit or the parents file complaints about the coach being to hard.  The referee's do their job... and then they are the bad guy or "on a power trip"

 

Call me crazy... but if a kid doesn't respect (or fear on some level) their parents in the 12-15 year old range.... then acting up at a wrestling meet is the least of their worries.

[Eminent 8]

ok

[Eminent 8]

Here are all of the videos I have on the Bourbon County kids match. I am Bourbon County's head coach.  Concerning the situation that occurred I think it was a very sad ordeal. As far as what happened, in my biased opinion, the wrestler and the ref were equally at fault for the outcome.  This is how I saw it unfold: the match started and the BOCO kid was pumped up and being overly aggressive.  Then in the second period he put the kid on his back and purposely placed his elbow on the kids' face. I was not aware of this until watching the video and I do not condone such behavior. He was justly called on it.  After that it starts to get crazy! The BOCO kid rolls the JC kid to his back and pins him, jumps up, and does a small celebration, and the ref immediately deducts a team point. Then parents on the side of the mat started cheering like crazy. As you can see from the video both my wrestler and I are calm at this point. I simply asked the ref why the team point was deducted and moved on. Then the BOCO kid shook the other kids hand and started to walk over to the JC coach to shake hands.  Some of the parents were talking to him (I don't know what was said whether it was good or bad but I am pretty sure they weren't congratulating him) and the BOCO kid turned toward the parent smiled and waved.  Then the ref kicks the BOCO wrestler out of the tournament and out of the building.  Then the ref, who would not calmly discuss with me what was going on, stormed to the main table with the bout sheet. My wife (the scorekeeper) was in tears and pleading with the ref not to take away this kids whole season over parents heckling a child. Then the ref kicks my wife out and turns to me and says "Since you are with her, you are out of here too!" One of the JC hosts came over to us and calmed my wife down and took charge of the situation. He was very kind and genuinely wanted to resolve this problem. He gathered the refs and they conferenced.  They decided to support the original ref's decision on kicking out our wrestler but not on kicking out my wife and I.  Overall this whole situation was horrible and now our wrestler who placed in state last year will not get the opportunity to go to state this year.   

If I offended anyone or angered anyone during this whole ordeal I sincerely apologize, as does my wife, for my wrestler and my school. No matter what is said after this I will not respond anymore.  Hopefully I will never be a part of a situation like this ever again. 

[JCB 2]

Let me first say that I saw the match in person and have been watching matches for the better part of 25 years and intensely for the past 10 years and they is no question this youth should have been ejected from the match.  IF any mistake was made by the official it was he did not hit the youth with a sportsmanship misconduct much earlier in the match. Just from memory I can remember the youth in the first person shoving his opponent after the whistle hard out of bounds twice, clapping in his opponent's face, pounding the neck / side of the face of the youth, and when he settle down on the youth to restart he dropped his weight like a ton of bricks. In the second period the youth winked at the crowd 2 or 3 times, blew the crowd a kiss or two, pounded the back of the youth neck / side of the youth's face once or twice and just had disrespect for authority and his opponent. In the 3^rd Period the youth continued his antic of winking, blowing kisses, unsporting like acts against his opponent and when he won the match ( which was not a close match) the youth jumped up and acted like “Rick Flair” by running around the mat with a woo and toting the crowd by waving. Once the official issued the sportsmanship and took a team point. The youth did not regain control but escalated which resulted in the ejection.

 

Next I have been working with committed and probated youth who have authority issues for the past 25 year's and it was easy to see this was not the youth's first incident with authority. My impression was the young man is in need of serious help through professional counseling and a more structured environment. Later I was informed of the youth's prior history which validated my above impression.

 

Last, I hope wrestling is a sport that builds charter, honor, sportsmanship, and structure for life events. That is why the youth needed to be ejected giving him a chance to understand they are consequences for your actions. I believe this incident has helped the youth because at the high school state duals his behavior was much improved.   

[heightsdad 3]

I've heard the camera adds 10 lbs, but JCB, the videos didn't show any of that. His antics following the match showed excitement for making it to the finals I thought, I didn't really see any Rick Flair during or after. The video didn't show his winks, kisses or pointing and yelling at the crowd. The other stuff you talk about; pushing out of bounds, pouncing down in the ref position and elbows during the match should have in fact been taken care of during the match. So it appears to me, if the ref made poor calls during the match then he could have made poor calls after the match.

I wasn't there and I am from region 1, just my view as a wrestler 30 years ago and coach for the last 7 years. I'm sure tensions were high and it was a long day, lets just move on from this. My opinion is our entire state should learn something from this mishap, from the parents of the wrestler, the parents of both teams, parents of all teams at the tournament, coaches, referees, tournament officials, table workers, and the wrestlers themselves. We teach sportsmanship, accountability, technique, gamesmanship and all kinds of other lessons. Everyone should learn something from this.

[JCB 2]

I guess just for fun I made it up.  If you take the time  to go back and read the past post you will see many of the unsportsmanlike behavior listed.  Second, you will see the youth is not a one time offender but a re-offender.  

[Bluesdad 73]

Almost everyone in the gym stated that the Youth behaved in the way that JCB has described. Not just Johnson Co people, but folks from other schools (at least people from 3 other schools) also stated that they observed him winking, blowing kisses, screaming like Ric Flair, etc. So I think it's a non-issue wether he acted like that or not. To many people saying the same exact thing for it to not be the case.

[heightsdad 3]

1st- I never said he didn't do any of those things, I said the video didn't show it. 2nd- How did the match get so out of control? That was the main meaning of my post.... The entire state should learn something from that one match. From the email I received from the MS State Board last night, I believe there was great progress made in the learning process. Zero tolerance for wrestlers, coaches, parents and fans on sportsmanship issues.

If all of those factors are removed from the equation, is there a process to ensure officials on the mat make the correct call?

IMO, the official allowed the match to get out of control if everything said was true. You can't tell me the official didn't see and hear all of these accusations going on during the match. Should he not have penalized the wrestler at the time of the infractions? He allowed the match to continue and raised Ric Flair's hand. How could he have allowed the kid to win?

I ask because I don't understand how the official allowed the behavior?

[JCB 2]

You must certainly at the very least imply that I was dishonest. Second, I take offense to you putting the responsibility on the official. The only major mistake that I saw from the official was he was reluctant to hit the you with a unsportsmanlike calls. I am sure he was thinking how he did not want to keep the young man from attending the middle school state and just wanted to give him another chance as many of you all have reacted. However, as I had stated before the young man needed a life lesson much more that he needed to attend a middle school state tournament.

 

Your second question “ how did the match get out of control” the you man came on the mate out of control and just escalated from their. The spectators gave energy to the youth but he was out of control before he stepped on the mat..

 

Last, the responsibility must fall on the youth however, his coach and all the officials who has allow that type of behavior share responsibility for the incident. If anything we should be celebrating the official who had the courage to address the youth not berate him. However, as you said if the official had be more aggressive in controlling the youth's behavior maybe the youth would have responded differently. However, My experience and the youth track record tells me different.