Youth Wrestling in High School

[Mathound 4]

In 2010, we had:

1-> 7th grader place 2nd (Mark Hall)

5-> 8th graders place (state champion Bock Ervin)

8-> 9th graders place

In 2012 we had:

3-> 8th graders place (all 120 or below)

6-> 9th graders place (state champion Austin Meyers) - Only one 9th grader placed from 150-185.

I believe with the recent weight changes from last year and the increase of talent across the state with the amazing youth program we have, it is becoming much harder for the youth levels to compete at the high school level.

I'm afraid with the weight changes, I think we should drop middle school wrestlers from competing at the high school varsity level. This is more evident the higher weight class the youth is competing in.

Initially, I think the introduction of 7th and 8th graders was needed and complimented the 32 man brackets we needed to fill. I was behind this decision to promote growth. With participation up and the recent raise in weight divisions... I think it could be justified to keep competition at the high school level. I have seen amazing youth wrestlers get slaughtered by elite and high school state placers, particularly in the mid to heavy weight classes. With the increased base of the lower weights, I don't see the need to allow the youth to participate at the varsity level as much as we required it a few years go.

I wouldn't say we need to stop 7th and 8th graders completely cold turkey, we could possibly only cut 7th graders from the list and still allow 8th graders to compete until the competition levels out again. I may receive some responses that don't agree, but I think we have to fundamentally believe our high school sports should be participated in by "high school students".

[raidercoach 51]

I would contest your stance by simply asking what harm does it create to allow middle school kids to wrestle varsity? I personally believe we shouldn't set any restrictions to prevent kids from competing against better competition if they choose to, especially if they earned the right to do so. If a 7th grader is being thrown into a lineup just to fill a spot against his will, I would be the first to say that should be stopped. However, we have a lot of middle school kids that can compete against high school kids especially at the lower weights that want to be there. So what's the harm?

[Mpire 76]

Not to stir up anything but read your own post ,you say the state has improved so why change one of the things that has helped it do so . Let the 7th and 8th graders wrestle if they are in no danger and can hang somewhat .let the rest of the country blast on states lien ky for letting them wrestle but do not be fooled they all wish they could and blast on ky out of envy and not because they think it's bad , every tourny in every state has talk of jr high kids that could hang in ky they get the chance don't ruin a good thing .

Besides I still have a little one and we want a shot at 5 or 6 lol

[raidercoach 51]

Not to stir up anything but read your own post ,you say the state has improved so why change one of the things that has helped it do so . Let the 7th and 8th graders wrestle if they are in no danger and can hang somewhat .let the rest of the country blast on states lien ky for letting them wrestle but do not be fooled they all wish they could and blast on ky out of envy and not because they think it's bad , every tourny in every state has talk of jr high kids that could hang in ky they get the chance don't ruin a good thing .

Besides I still have a little one and we want a shot at 5 or 6 lol

Exactly. I don't understand the logic of making change for change sake unless you can provide evidence that the change will improve things. If a middle school kid beats a high school kid on his team via a wrestle off, then he is a better wrestler regardless of his age. By replacing the better wrestler with the kid he beat, then you are in fact lowering the competition, not improving it.

[dutch 178]

I would agree that nobody should take a middle school wrestler to fill a spot. I would think that a coach or other wrestlers could talk to students at school and hopefully find someone to fill a spot. However I don't think that you hold back a middle school wrestler that can hang at that level. I would say this mainly happens in the lower weights. I would also say that common sense from the coach and parents would be able to make a sound descion. I think with the way the younger wrestlers are progressing we should see even more middle school wrestlers being able to compete at the high school level. I am always amazed when a young wrestle competes with guys 3-4 years older than them. I just came back from super 32 and watched an 8th grader named spencer lee take 2nd at one of the toughest tournaments in the country. He was amazing. I know we just had the Lawson kids come to ky. They are middle school kids which I have been told will compete at the high school level. I can't wait to see them wrestle. Kudos for all the hard work it took them to be able to compete at that level.

[CJDM250 0]

This would be a topic for the KHSAA to discuss. I could be wrong but I believe middle school kids "play up" in every sport besides football. Wrestling, basketball, baseball, softball, golf, tennis, etc all have middle school athletes competing at the high school level. If they wanted to stop one sport from allowing middle schoolers to "play up" they would probably have to make all sports ban middle school athletes at the high school level. We all know in the state of Kentucky that kind of rule will not be implimented unless it is supported by basketball coaches. So as long as basketball wants middle school athletes we will all have middle school athletes.

[firemans34 33]

I'm on board with everyone but Mathound. If a kid is good enough, let him wrestle. Dutch stole my thunder with the reference to the Lee kid at Super 32....amazing. With KY wrestling improving on a national scale, why do something that has the potential to move it backwards. Some of these middle schoolers wrestle only a high school schedule until post season(Vasquez last year). How can that not help them improve?!

[Mathound 4]

The evidence that maturity makes a difference, is made in the fact that no middle school wrestlers placed above 120lbs. I know there are advantages to the current system because youth wrestlers are eligible to wrestle any high school wrestler in practice as well. Without that ability, I do think it would hurt wrestling in our state overall. However, if you only take away 7th graders wrestling in tournaments and leave the possibility of practicing, I don't think it would affect the overall results at all.

I believe the overall increased talent is mostly based on the amazing job the youth wrestling association has been doing. The ability to wrestle in practice with high school kids, is another factor.

I think there is a risk when 7th graders are wrestling seniors (there is a difference in being 12 and 18 years old). This is crossing 3 age groups in USA Wrestling. Although they weigh the same, the maturity level is completely different. I think like football, maturity has a huge impact on safety. Which is the major point I am trying to make, I think 7th graders are at risk. Perhaps there is no data to back that up though, but I think it's interesting that no middle school wrestlers placed above 120 lbs. Keep in mind our youth wrestling team has been doing the best it has ever performed in national tournaments in recent years and still none placed above 120 lbs.

I think we will continue to see less and less middle school wrestlers place at the high school level, especially with the recent weight change and better talent pool overall.

I'm not saying we need to do this "now", this is just a discussion and I like to stir the pot.

[raidercoach 51]

The evidence that maturity makes a difference, is made in the fact that no middle school wrestlers placed above 120lbs. I know there are advantages to the current system because youth wrestlers are eligible to wrestle any high school wrestler in practice as well. Without that ability, I do think it would hurt wrestling in our state overall. However, if you only take away 7th graders wrestling in tournaments and leave the possibility of practicing, I don't think it would affect the overall results at all.

I believe the overall increased talent is mostly based on the amazing job the youth wrestling association has been doing. The ability to wrestle in practice with high school kids, is another factor.

I think there is a risk when 7th graders are wrestling seniors (there is a difference in being 12 and 18 years old). This is crossing 3 age groups in USA Wrestling. Although they weigh the same, the maturity level is completely different. I think like football, maturity has a huge impact on safety. Which is the major point I am trying to make, I think 7th graders are at risk. Perhaps there is no data to back that up though, but I think it's interesting that no middle school wrestlers placed above 120 lbs. Keep in mind our youth wrestling team has been doing the best it has ever performed in national tournaments in recent years and still none placed above 120 lbs.

I think we will continue to see less and less middle school wrestlers place at the high school level, especially with the recent weight change and better talent pool overall.

I'm not saying we need to do this "now", this is just a discussion and I like to stir the pot.

Middle schoolers don't usually place above 120lbs simply because of numbers. The majority of 7th and 8th graders who wrestle are going to wrestle at 120 or less. I haven't looked it up, but I'm confident that if you look at the states that allow middle school kids to participate in high school, the majority of those middle school aged kids wrestle at light weights. Also, the age gap at the light weights is probably in line with every other weight because there aren't too many juniors and seniors wrestling 106-120. In Ranger's lateste rankings only 17 out of 75 ranked kids are seniors at the 106, 113, and 120lb weights combined (only 22.6%). Whereas 39 out of 70 of ranked kids are seniors at 145, 152 and 160lb weights combined (55.7%).

To your point, middle school aged kids who weigh more than 120 probably aren't going to be able to earn a varsity spot due to the disadvanatages you listed, so it works itself out. I appreciate you liking to stir the pot, but, I would caution suggesting any ideas that eliminate opportunities for kids to compete. There have been some recent changes at the youth level that are going to force youth aged kids who are capable of competing at middle school to choose between competing at youth or middle state, they may not be able to do both. The idea of restricting opportunities for our kids to wrestle at any level if they want to and if they earned the right to doesn't make sense to me.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Dutch you hit the nail on the head. The coach and parents of a middle school wrestler should use common sense when sending their wrestler out to wrestle older/superior talented kids.

Nobody wants to see a kid get hurt. If a coach has a 7th grader just filling a spot, I believe most would not allow them to wrestle the likes of the Meyers or Canter just to name a few.

You must remember there are still some schools that cannot field even half a team for whatever reason with high school kids. Most of the time these coaches will send their team to low competition tourneys to protect thier younger kids. Also remember there are some schools that still only have one coach for both the middle and high school team and they can't be in two places at once so the middle schoolers must compete on varsity.

[boston120 17]

^Guys,

^{IMO Kentucky has a good thing going. This gives our elite young wrestlers an opportunity to get good competition. I think both of the Lawson's will wrestle HS this year if they can make the lineup. Kyle will be at 126 and I think he will place. This gives him an opportunity that most states wouldnt allow. I think last year kyle pinned his way through the MS state event in OH.}

^{On another note, I think all states goes through waves of talent. Last year Indiana graduated a great class of kids and probably next year will be another. Kentucky has several wrestlers that can compete on a National level. I seen that this weekend. I dont know that many wrestlers from Kentucky but hope that will change this year. The few that I do know are hammers. Brock Ervin, Trae Blackwell, Myers brother, Sean F., Jayce Carr, Kevin Cooper, Whallen, and the Boston moveback and many others. We just got to be willing to go out there and compete and put it on the line. In the off season train together to make the state better. I also want to say thanks for all the support Nathan was given by the KY guys this weekend.}

^{Rob Boston}

[Mpire 76]

I think there will be kids who come along now an again in middle school that can compete in HS tournys above 126 or 50 or so it's just a bit harder for them because your heavier kids are usually your jrs and srs at 220 7 placers were srs this yr but on the opposite end a talented or experienced youth wrestler with sise may actually have an advantage in some cases the skill level drops while the maturity and strength levels rise in heavier classes the lighter weights are super competitive "a good plan to diet youth kids , then let them go as they get older " I know it's not popular but it is effective chasing the stud packed classes as a youth then growing and moving up gives a big kid a huge advantage over most big guys , don't count out the big youth kids yet I think they may be few and far between but worth the wait , and ky should allow 7 th and 8th

[tekejew 19]

For those of you that were around in I'm thinking 93 to maybe 98, can't remember the exact time frame but they did stop middle school from competing for several years and the result was Kentucky wrestling teams dropped to the all time lowest it has ever been as far as teams represented in the state. Dropping middle school participation would kill teams in the long run. Your bigger schools and your smaller schools that have support from the schools on the middle school level wouldn’t be hurt by the rule change, but when you’re talking about the sport as a whole you would go back to how wrestling was in Kentucky in the early two thousands and we would see a gradual decline in teams.

[WHS98 34]

I have no problem with middle school kids wrestling high school,I just wish it would be for all schools both public and private(and yes I know it is a private school rule).The 7th and 8th gr. kids that do get to be in a high school gym practicing 5 and 6 days a week are much farther along than the others.Middle school practices just don't compare to high school.

[Mpire 76]

It all depends on the team I have seen jr high club teams run practices that some of the best HS kids wouldn't dares attempt to participate in for a full week or even a full practice , and jr high clubs have no set amount of matches there are advantages middle school has over HS , I would take the unlimited tournys and free reign in practice of a club over any HS room , that's why the best kids in the nation wrestle for club teams in middle school when they enter HS they dominate , All the Pa kids , renegades Pa All American , all the Mich teams Ill teams ind all stars NJ doughboys , all the N OH teams , Jordan's and Prodigy , there are middle school kids in these rooms and most of these jr high teams would spank most HS teams with ease .

Ky needs a few ultra club teams and then they would raise their level even more , the problem is most schools are against them and blackball them because they fear th recruiting and what they cannot control ,

[J.W. 21]

Mpire - from what you put up with from the critics on this crazy forum last year over your move, I thought Kentucky had an ultimate team with recruiting at the HS level.

Fully agree with you on the level of practices are what the coach makes them at the MS level. When I look at the top 10 MS teams from last year's MS results - they were not teams practicing with High Schools. They were MS coaches that are running challenging programs that are preparing kids for the next level.

[CoachBrown 12]

I have no problem with middle school kids wrestling high school,I just wish it would be for all schools both public and private(and yes I know it is a private school rule).

Btw, as far as I know there is no rule against private school kids doing it.

It is an agreement among the private schools not to do it.

[Mpire 76]

Lol dont know about CC having any ultimate team from recruiting they can't draw kids from outside the district , like some schools can.

If a kid goes to a public school he can try out for the HS team how many private school middle school kids actually wrestle I wonder , and why would khsaa make a rule against private school middle schoolers wrestling for the HS they feed in too .

Sounds like an issue amongst the private schools . Parents paying cash for their kid to attend a school for its academics religious preference sports teams or whatever probably do not want to have to compete with a jr high kid , I'm not sure just a hunch .

I think a lot of the middle school teams in ky are considered club if I'm not mistaken , perhaps they should model themselves after the very successful club teams across the nation , beef up the schedules and the intensity think outside the box a little run their teams longer before and after season have fr and gr seasons or simply go all yr long . Ky has some huge advantages club kids can hit tournys like Tulsa and the wow events and all the different nat events that a HS kid cannot do because of the point system , a system that ruins the sport and holds back its elite kids in my opinion it changes the focus of the sport which should be to create the best athlete possible to a school sport designed for the school system to control for their own purposes . Without a point system the nation would have the most dominant wrestlers on the planet within a few yrs our country would sweep the Olympics and wrestling would be taken to levels never thought of before ,but everyone I worried about someone else getting an advantage , but still everyone puts up with the advantages that private schools obviously have . I'm not complaining I like the private schools and how they use the rules I'm just stating the obvious difference and HUGE advantage they have over public schools ,

A sad world the rich get richer and the rich or talented kids get the glory ,

[grappler-of-old 44]

. Ky has some huge advantages club kids can hit tournys like Tulsa and the wow events and all the different nat events that a HS kid cannot do because of the point system , a system that ruins the sport and holds back its elite kids in my opinion it changes the focus of the sport which should be to create the best athlete possible to a school sport designed for the school system to control for their own purposes .

Here is where you are incorrect. Sports in high school are not to create the best athlete possible. There were added to schools to promote hard work, teamwork, responsibility, and sportsmanship. Allong with school spirit that would create a fun atmosphere to the school campus.

Without a point system the nation would have the most dominant wrestlers on the planet within a few yrs our country would sweep the Olympics and wrestling would be taken to levels never thought of before ,

Without a point system you have coaches that take it to far. And that means less kids participating in wrestling. Ky's points system is very liberal in it allows for I think 16, maybe 17 events. (Be them a single dual event or a 2 day 11 team round robin dual).

You have seen it yourself. How many kids attend the summer wrestling practices? very few and if those practice became mandatory then you would have less kids participating. They would not have time to do other sports or activities they enjoy.

Plus for us to be dominant then we would have to change the High school rules to international rules to compete worldly.

[Mpire 76]

No one mentioned mandatory just having a club team and the option and I have seen some kids that do wrestle all yr and still participate In other sports such as football , most of te top kida do not and they focus on one sport but I have seen some very good kida in the past participate in both , Orlando Scales in OH from Elder , Hunter Steiber as a little guy played a well and some of te better kida in Ky do and did participate in other sports at one time or another - as for switching styles I don't agree a great folkstyle kid can make te switch to freestyle with little hardship and some kida are suited for Greco , I see all the benifits you point out apple pie all American stuff but I like to be realistic and look at what works some of those kida who but it all year are the best of role models they set the standard of sportsmanship teamwork and all the apple pie stuff . Lol

I do agree ky has better point system than some that's a plus now Gerri's of the point crap all together and let coaches and kids do as they want and let everyone get better , sad when you see a team of kids who could do so much more but are limited by outdated rules that favor those who are not looking to be the best to begin with ,

I can see a small school with limited funds not wanting to see a no points system and as a guy who grew up with less than most I would like to see something that let All kids and teams rat wanted the extra comp get their chance .

[grappler-of-old 44]

I know you didn't mention madatory, however many coaches would if you let go of the reigns. Much like the football coaches tell you that spring football is not mandatory. And in KY it's why many football players are convinced they can't wrestle or they would loose playing time on the football field. Again as you have mentioned several times in your posts. It takes good coaches that know kids and how to push them when they want to be pushed and not coaches out to fill their own agenda, notoriety, popularity, or self promoted greatness.

All that you talk about can be accomplished with clubs after the high school season is over.

[Tim Reynolds 7]

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I'm against it. We're really only talking about the first few weight classes anyway though.

KHSAA is the Kentucky HIGH SCHOOL Athletic Association. To me that means a kid should be in HS to compete. Average high schoolers have their hands full and don't need to be competing against the stud middle schoolers. On the other hand, stud middle schoolers often are not mature enough emotionally to handle the stressors of hs sports whether it's from their coach, family, or self induced.

The Mark Hall example is extreme, but that shouldn't be able to happen. 4 years of competition in HS is sufficient in my opinion

[eville dad 17]

Just curious, does anyone know the other states that allow middle school wrestlers to compete against HS ?

[Mpire 76]

Minn , of course is one and they have had a few middle schoolers win state , and I disagree with th statement that middle school studs cannot compete with high schoolers I know many that coul and did when they had chances over the summer in open tournys , my sons played football every year except one for one of them and still wrestled per the summer for many years and did very well in open tournys as sixth seventh and eighth graders and I have seen many others do the same although many do not play football and are one sport kida or at least do all the different styles , I do think football coaches in ky for the most part are oblivious of wrestling they are for lack of better words IGNORANT about wrestling wrestlers and the whole sport on general , particularly considering many of them come from schools that never had wrestling , they fear it when they should push it , I will say this in OHio they talk about football coaches not liking wrestling or wrestlers but for the most part it's not true and mostly gossip the big schools like their wrestlers Colerain Moeller Elder have all had stand out wrestlers over the years who stood out on the football field as well , KY obviously has as well with Jude and I hear Bryant is great Ball player and I'm sure some of the big boys of the past played some ball , in my own experience in ky the coaches do not understand wrestlers and stereotype them thinking they are good linemen lol and although they may be there is a quickness to a good wrestler that few in any sport can match I have seen a lot of athletes in many sports as far as youth and jr high goes No other sport comes close to the intensity of a good club or good school wretling team HS seems to lose some intensity and drive for some reason , football and other sports and the intensity they offer are laughable to a really good youth wrestler , I have seen youth practices No HS team in the state could make it through the conditioning is not there the skill is not there its not even close , there are kids in jr high in many states that could place in KY and not to talk smack but I know a fresh state champ last yr that would have won state in KY as an 8th grader well over 15o and would have possibly won as a seventh grader as well and he ha had many teammates that coul have done the same or close to it , Ky should actually push jr high kids to wrestle and watch as the state improves even more on a national level .

[Mat Addict 20]

Youth wrestling in high schools gives the middle schools real expirience with varsity, and big time wrestling that they will need when they get into high school. I also don't think that anything should be changed unless you can show some evidence that youth wrestling in high school teams is negative to the middle schoolsers well being.