maddog33 0 Report post Posted February 20, 2008 For every one that wants to talk about how bad the refs are in Kentucky, maybe you should take the test and get your license. I read all the complaints and they don Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 Maddog I think you are missing the point. I have done the ref thing for a little while, and have done the coach thing, (which takes even more time than officiating).I don't see anyone saying anything about not calling stalling when the title is on the line. What we want is for it to be called consistently throughout the year. An official is not giving a wrestler a break when he does not call it the same in the regular season and call it different at the state tourney.It has little to do with coaching. If you do the same thing at the state tourney as you have the regular season and they call it differently then it is unfair to the wrestler. Yes it is possible to sprawl 5 times and not be called for stalling. Maybe your opponent takes 5 quick shots without a setup and not really trying for a takedown. Your only recourse is to sprawl. This is another form of stalling in itself. What I didn't like called was the fleeing the mat calls when a wrestler has his leg in the air. If his back is to the out of bounds and he goes out of bounds it is NOT blatant fleeing the mat. He is not required to push into his opponent so that he gives his opponent a takedown. If it is something that is not called stalling in the middle of the mat then it is not fleeing the mat near the out of bounds. I only saw one blatant fleeing the mat in the finals. Shotwell diving out of bounds with Peace. The stalling call on Sullivan is not in dispute. The non call on Lewis is. Just because someone has dedicated their time as an official does not mean they cannot be criticized. You criticized coaches in your post and they put in much more time, and cost than any official in the state. I know a coach that has not been able to see his son wrestle much this year because of coaching his team, he drives the team to events in his personal car, and we all know the cost of fuel today. He also must at many times take money out of his pocket so his wrestlers can get something to eat. He is not the only coach to do this, many other coaches do this.The time they put into the sport is negated when officials change their calls when it get to the big dance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 if a kid is is getting ready to be taken down on the out of bounds line it is his or her responsibility to circle in and keep wrestling. they should not hop off the mat...its fleeing the mat..and i am sure that the officials are not 100% consesent but i doubt they make mistakes on purpose...the little time refs put in and the money they get is not even close to being worth it...especially when there is always one coach mad in every match...and to criticize the refs and talk about how terrible they are is ignorant...surely one day they will all give up then there will be no wrestling...that will give you all something to talk about... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 It is also the responsibility of the offensive wrestler to stay inbounds. The wresler does not have to put himself in danger just to stay in bounds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 i am sure that the off wrestler is not going to try and push him out if he is gonna get two....and no the def wrestler does not have to put himself in danger but he will give up that penalty point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachK 2 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 There is a difference between trying to stay in bounds and pushing his opponent out of bounds. He is required to try and stay inbounds regardless of offensive or defensive.i am sure that the off wrestler is not going to try and push him out if he is gonna get two....and no the def wrestler does not have to put himself in danger but he will give up that penalty point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
backtothestate 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 i would get my license but im coaching and i wouldnt want to be lumped into their catagory. how could i sore like an eagle if im flying with a group of turkeys Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tekejew 19 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 I have officiated for several years and I was disappointed with one ref at state. I seen that ref call stalling on a wrestler from Larue (which I'm not affiliated with) that was winning by 5, because he took a shot and grabbed the leg. I wouldn't have called a kid for stalling when they are taking the initiative. And if every time a ref steps on the mat and makes a match out of every match or almost every match they ref, makes for a bad ref. Like I said before there was just one ref in particular that I thought shouldn't be officiating at state the rest I thought did fine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 i understand that there is always going to be one or two refs that people are going to have a problem with but the way everyone talks they think all of them basically suck..i can see constructive criticism* but thats not what everyone is doing..all they want to do is bad mouth the people that CHOOSE to referee because they love the sport...everyone knows they dont do it because they think its fun...just like coaching..its not really fun but to see the kids grow up and succed and do well makes it worth it..no one gets on here when a coach tells a kid by mistake to turn the wrong way and then gets him stuck ...that the coach is terrible and that the coach of the year award is more like the coach that sucked the least... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pioneer_pride 1 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 i understand that there is always going to be one or two refs that people are going to have a problem with but the way everyone talks they think all of them basically suck..i can see constructive criticism* but thats not what everyone is doing..all they want to do is bad mouth the people that CHOOSE to referee because they love the sport...everyone knows they dont do it because they think its fun...just like coaching..its not really fun but to see the kids grow up and succed and do well makes it worth it..no one gets on here when a coach tells a kid by mistake to turn the wrong way and then gets him stuck ...that the coach is terrible and that the coach of the year award is more like the coach that sucked the least...maddog - don't let it get you down. not EVERYONE on this site thinks the refs suck. you are being overly sensitive to the negative criticism, but there has been a lot of kudos to the refs also. look closely, you'll see some praise out there. however, you must admit, there is always room for improvement. a little more consistency on stalling calls would be nice. i have just seen a lot more aggressive stalling calls out of state than in kentucky. it seems like it is better for the sport, and takes away a bad strategy that some wrestlers have.....get a 1 pt lead, then stall. other than that, as i've said on another thread...the refs were excellent.as far as refs getting booed.....refs should expect this. 1 ref told me before that every call you make, 50% of the gym will love, 50% of the gym will hate. if people think a ref blew a call, they will boo them. if people think a kid is a bad sport, they will boo him. if you don't like it, don't make a bad call! :wink: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 i agree that refs should get booed...its part of what makes it enjoyable for the fans..i never said anything about that...all i cant understand is if everyone thinks they are terrible why dont they do it...if they dont plan to take over and make a diff for the better dont get all mad and upset about them missing calls........i also dont understand where compareing coachs and ref came to be...i dont care who has coached and how much time they put in....i have also coached for 3 years and i would say.....a coach dont put up with as much crap in a year as a ref does one saturday.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 There is a difference between trying to stay in bounds and pushing his opponent out of bounds. He is required to try and stay inbounds regardless of offensive or defensive. if a kid shoots in, gets a leg, and is getting ready to get a take down, why would he rush the kid out???? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachK 2 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 What my point was is that both guys are required to stay in bounds, so why should the guy who shot get a point because the other guy sprawled and went out of bounds...the one who shot may be no where near getting a takedown but gets a point because the other sprawled out of bounds? When one is just as responsible for staying in bounds as the other...I saw that called this weekend too. Once the offensive wrestler wasn't even close to getting a takedown, but shot in three times and the defensive was called for fleeing the mat, but he had just enough time to stand up and sprawl again. if a kid shoots in, gets a leg, and is getting ready to get a take down, why would he rush the kid out???? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wrestling Dad 99 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 Maddog: What pioneer is saying is that we are generally not questioning what happened in a single match. We are not even questioning the fact that stalling should be called for passivity. We are not questioning that leg rides without an intent to turn is passive wrestling and should require a restart, and if persistent a stall warning. We agree with you on these points.And, by the way, like Pioneer I have been both a coach and an official. Our concern is that this year there was a noticeable difference in how officials approached passivity and stalling in the state tournament versus how they made calls during the regular season. Not just in one or two matches, but through the entire tournament. What we believe is owed the coaches and wrestlers is a consistent approach to this issue. From tournament to tournament, from official to official.I have been involved in wrestling as a high school wrestler, college wrestler, coach and official in seven states for 40 years (yikes, had to go back and figure that out - scary). I believe that the role of a wrestling official is to manage the match to the rule book. That means making certain that how individuals perform against the rules dictates the outcome of the match. They should never "influence" the outcome of the match, just manage the process to the rules.This absolutely demands a consistency of interpretation that frankly, MANY of us did not see at the state tournament this year compared to how calls were made during the season.If our officials can't listen to these concerns and consider a more consistent approach to these calls then they will never improve, which should be the goal of every official. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 i like the way you say it rather than the other 20 people who just like to say they suck :-) what you said is gonna make a ref want to get better...what they say is gonna make them all give up on the sport..i am glad someone acts like an adult...also on the fleeing the mat situation...i was saying if a kid has another kids leg up in the air and the def kid jumps out its fleeing...not if he sprawls...someone else said that the kid has the right to jump out because it is not right for him to stay in that position because he is in danger of giving up 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bulldog-leader 56 Report post Posted February 21, 2008 As a coach. (Soon to be ex-coach, after 23 years of coaching) I agree with wrestling dad. Stalling and fleeing the mat should be called consistantly throughout the year. We did not see it this year. I had only 1 at the state tournament this year and I'm not sure he was called for stalling and I'm possitive he did not get a fleeing the mat call. After watching the rest of the tournament brought up some questions. I personally think the officials we had for the state tournament were more than adiquate. Like most of the year I talk to the officials after events to help me understand calls and to give them constructive critisizm. The leg in the air call was the most concerning of all. Lets use the increasingly more popular funk move. The one with the backflip to get out of a single leg situation. If this occurs in the center of the mat then the wrestler gets free of the move and wrestling continues. If the same move happens at the edge of the mat and the funk wrestlers flips out of bounds then he (according to the way they called it at the state tourn.) would be fleeing the mat and would then give his opponent one point. This to me is not the correct call. The hardest thing on this board is to give situations. I believe that many of you would agree with a fleeing the mat call and a non-call, but you would have to see the situation. I am with P-P on this, stalling must be called more aggressively throughout the year. Many of the refs know when I am calling for a stalling call it is usually against my own wrestler. Many times I have asked for a stalling call on my wrestlers. (The first time an official has me do this, you should see their face).To me it is the only way I can get my wrestlers to not stall in critical times during a match and possibly give up the point needed to lose the match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ulgrad150 0 Report post Posted February 22, 2008 maddog has some good comments. One thing I see about stalling. Slaps at legs are not shots. Locking up and dancing is not being aggressive to get a takedown. Putting legs in on top and not rotating the hips to the side of the opponent to rotate there body over a period of 5 to 10 seconds is stalling, depending on situtation. Installing double legs in does not allow the bottom wrestler to move hardly at all and if the top man again does not rotate then it is a stalling position. An improper move is to put the half in and try to tear the guys arm out of socket. This is today's wrestlers move with the legs. When both legs are in the body does not rotate unless the top man rotates, thus causing a lot of pressure on the bottom mans, arm, neck and torso. Most refs will tell the person on top that he needs to move side to side to secure a pinning combination. Unfortunately, the kids are not aggressive and wait for the defensive man to come up and make a mistake. That is not aggressive wrestling and is stalling. The bottom man must get to base and continue to move without blocking. If he does not try to get to his base or is blocking and not trying to sitout, switch, standup, roll, etc... he is stalling. Only time this situation is not stalling is when the top man is overpowering the bottom man. These are the situations when I wrestled and most of the refs do talk to the kids to let them know that they are not moving and are about to be called for stalling. I see refs talking to the kids all the time about moving. If they move and are agressive to get a takedown, fall or escape they do not get called for stalling. Each ref has his own style and all vary a lot. Some call it all the time, usually more experienced officials and others do not recognize the sitiuations as fast, ie, younger officials from what I have seen. Again older refs most likely wrestled in the 70's and 80's when wrestling was aggressive rather than wait for your opponent to make the mistake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted February 22, 2008 i agree with most of the stuff thats been said. i think also that all refs have their own way of doin things..they all try to stay with whats in the rules but they have diff ways of enforcing them. again with the fleeing the mat..if a kid attempts a move and goes out at the same time its not a penality..i said only if he runs out...i saw a situation where a kid was standing and the other kid was behind him and no one had control yet...the kid in danger takes off running out of bounds and get calls for fleeing...after the fact he told the ref that he was trying a running switch whitch he did try just outside the line...i think fleeing the mat was right call...some people say that refs call out of bounds to quick...and every one knows that the one time a ref dont call it and the kid busts his head open on the hard floor, that the coach is gonna be all over the ref..i think that they have a 10' circle and there is no reason for them to get so close to the line...its going to happen of course but i have seen 80% of kids try a double leg at the line and before they get a chance to finish they are already on or over the line..i think the match should be stopped and they should start in the middle just for the safety...i say this because i have sen refs wait like at the state tourn this year and when they do that the 2 kids ended up underneath the scorers table..someone could really get hurt and no ref wants that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrCradle 0 Report post Posted March 2, 2008 One man's opinion on officating...................The wrestlers and coaches has pasted the officials. wrestlers and coaches go to summer camps, clinics and learn the latest techiques...........what do the officals do? go home..and?????.do they watch the college matches? keep uptodate on wrestling? one man's opinion... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
possumdaddy 23 Report post Posted March 2, 2008 I had a referee tell me this year that an illegal headlock was only illegal from the standing position and not if it was on the mat.Someone please explain that one to me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachK 2 Report post Posted March 2, 2008 Ok, here's the explanation....he was wrong.I had a referee tell me this year that an illegal headlock was only illegal from the standing position and not if it was on the mat.Someone please explain that one to me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
possumdaddy 23 Report post Posted March 2, 2008 Oh i know he was dead wrong that was sarcasm he was that short fat white haired guy with glasses. he is absolutely horrible. i showed him the illustration in the rule book ands he told me sir they are on their feet its only illegal then not on the mat.then he threatened to throw me out because i got another referee to back me up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted March 5, 2008 One man's opinion on officating...................The wrestlers and coaches has pasted the officials. wrestlers and coaches go to summer camps, clinics and learn the latest techiques...........what do the officals do? go home..and?????.do they watch the college matches? keep uptodate on wrestling? one man's opinion...that makes a lot of sense..because they pay to get taught how to wrestle better that gives them the right to whine and cry for every call that does not go that way...i will let the officals know that if they go to camp the coachs cant cry anymore..and comparing college wrestling to kentucky wrestling is :? there is no comparing the two..i dont think that watching college matchs is going to prepare the refs for kids that cant properly do a stand up.....that only applies to about 80% of the kids..dont get me wrong there are some good wrestlers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mouse 0 Report post Posted March 10, 2008 I tried to get my liscense but I never even recieved the info in the mail that I was supposed to get. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
