Ms State Duals

[MLee 68]

46 minutes ago, REscalera said:

Not so obvious but maybe that's because it's me and I often miss the obvious hehe. For us slow folk out in western KY can you please not speak in code?

Sure. A coach (and current board member) was kicked out of state duals for poor sportsmanship. 

Per the discussion here, a wrestler was kicked out of Regionals for poor sportsmanship during the 3rd/4th place match. He cannot participate in the state tournament.

If we are going to prevent a young wrestler from participating in the state tournament for being kicked out of Regionals, shouldn’t a coach/board member have the same punishment?

[REscalera 189]

20 minutes ago, MLee said:

Sure. A coach (and current board member) was kicked out of state duals for poor sportsmanship. 

Per the discussion here, a wrestler was kicked out of Regionals for poor sportsmanship during the 3rd/4th place match. He cannot participate in the state tournament.

If we are going to prevent a young wrestler from participating in the state tournament for being kicked out of Regionals, shouldn’t a coach/board member have the same punishment?

 What does the rule book say on coaches that have been kicked out?

[REscalera 189]

12 hours ago, MLee said:

Sure. A coach (and current board member) was kicked out of state duals for poor sportsmanship. 

Per the discussion here, a wrestler was kicked out of Regionals for poor sportsmanship during the 3rd/4th place match. He cannot participate in the state tournament.

If we are going to prevent a young wrestler from participating in the state tournament for being kicked out of Regionals, shouldn’t a coach/board member have the same punishment?

I guess there's no rule regarding a coach being kicked out of a tournament? If that is the case than I would say no it's not a double standard.  It would be like one arguing that the 70lb Raney boy should get the 1 seed over the Vega boy because the Vega kid's coaches chose to run from the head to head opportunity because so long as the Vega/Raney match doesnt occur Vega maintains criteria because he was a state placer last year.  I would have no problem with that match avoidance being counted as a forfeit but rules are rules. The rules don't say anything about avoiding a match to avoid a loss so that one doesn't lose seeding criteria so the wrestler that is avoiding a match can't be penalized for it.  Just like the rules don't say anything about a coach having to miss state because he was kicked out of state duals. Maybe come next time rules meeting come around both of these situations can be addressed and we would avoid situations like this past weekend.  Because if you ask me it sounds like poor sportsmanship on both coaches. One was just not as explosive and visible as the other but present none the less.  However I see the other to have the potential of having a lasting negative impact on the wrestler than I do the one that got kicked out.  At least the one that got kicked out can speak to his team about how his actions were wrong and apologize.  The coach teaching his wrestler to run from a challenge and get something the easy way (the 1 seed)..... Well how's he going to address that? He's probably not. 

[rjs4470 103]

6 minutes ago, REscalera said:

I guess there's no rule regarding a coach being kicked out of a tournament? If that is the case than I would say no it's not a double standard.  It would be like one arguing that the 70lb Raney boy should get the 1 seed over the Vega boy because the Vega kid's coaches chose to run from the head to head opportunity because so long as the Vega/Raney match doesnt occur Vega maintains criteria because he was a state placer last year.  I would have no problem with that match avoidance being counted as a forfeit but rules are rules. The rules don't say anything about avoiding a match to avoid a loss so that one doesn't lose seeding criteria so the wrestler that is avoiding a match can't be penalized for it.  Just like the rules don't say anything about a coach having to miss state because he was kicked out of state duals. Maybe come next time rules meeting come around both of these situations can be addressed and we would avoid situations like this past weekend.  Because if you ask me it sounds like poor sportsmanship on both coaches. One was just not as explosive and visible as the other but present none the less.  However I see the other to have the potential of having a lasting negative impact on the wrestler than I do the one that got kicked out.  At least the one that got kicked out can speak to his team about how his actions were wrong and apologize.  The coach teaching his wrestler to run from a challenge and get something the easy way (the 1 seed)..... Well how's he going to address that? He's probably not. 

If this were a KHSAA event, the coach would have to sit out the next event.  Since it's not, I'm guessing there is no rule regarding this situation.

[REscalera 189]

Duplicate 

Edited January 31, 2018 by REscalera
Duplicate

[twenhofelcoach 61]

The implication of waiting a week to wrestle each other at a state finals match with more individual meaning for both of them will be settled then. As far as a “team dual” bumping up or down is always an option. Implementing that a coach made that decision without talking to his wrestler first and asking his option is what your assuming. One the state duals a week before state is ludicrous. That’s what creates all these scenarios. I can guarantee anyone on this site would agree if we had State Duals before post season events nobody would dodge anyone.

[Just a Coach 78]

42 minutes ago, REscalera said:

I guess there's no rule regarding a coach being kicked out of a tournament? If that is the case than I would say no it's not a double standard.  It would be like one arguing that the 70lb Raney boy should get the 1 seed over the Vega boy because the Vega kid's coaches chose to run from the head to head opportunity because so long as the Vega/Raney match doesnt occur Vega maintains criteria because he was a state placer last year.  I would have no problem with that match avoidance being counted as a forfeit but rules are rules. The rules don't say anything about avoiding a match to avoid a loss so that one doesn't lose seeding criteria so the wrestler that is avoiding a match can't be penalized for it.  Just like the rules don't say anything about a coach having to miss state because he was kicked out of state duals. Maybe come next time rules meeting come around both of these situations can be addressed and we would avoid situations like this past weekend.  Because if you ask me it sounds like poor sportsmanship on both coaches. One was just not as explosive and visible as the other but present none the less.  However I see the other to have the potential of having a lasting negative impact on the wrestler than I do the one that got kicked out.  At least the one that got kicked out can speak to his team about how his actions were wrong and apologize.  The coach teaching his wrestler to run from a challenge and get something the easy way (the 1 seed)..... Well how's he going to address that? He's probably not. 

      I am of a different opinion,if a coach bumps or drops a wrestler that is his decision. Regardless of his reasons it has been and always will be permitted. On the other hand you have a coach that lost his cool on the mat and verbally assaulted another coach out loud for everyone to hear, unsportsmanlike. Had that been a parent i hope the same consequences would have been levied.We have to remember we are there for the kids, we are supposed to be not just role models but good role models. The fact that the coach in question is a member of the board only compounds the issue, board members are also held to a higher standard than coaches as they should be.I know Coach Raney and personally I like him he has been a good coach and board member, however that does not excuse his actions last Saturday. He was ejected, took his punishment and that is that further punishment is not warranted by our by-laws, USA Wrestling or NFHS. His standing on the board is yet to be determined as both Youth VP positions are up for election this weekend. I suggest if this incident has swayed anyone opinion on that then they should vote accordingly. 

 

    That being said i do not personally attack other coaches or board members publicly neither do I  condone it. There is a Coach at Scott County who every time we face each other he gets my goat and he enjoys the hell out of it, we bicker back and forth. When the match or tournament are over we laugh and move on, neither one of us has ever tried to publicly humiliate one another or a wrestler. Sometimes adults forget we are here for the KIDS not ourselves, they are our future and if we don't set the standard then in 20 years were will Kentucky wrestling be?

 

[grappler-of-old 44]

Are you kidding me?  Someone actually thinks that a coach would "dodge" a wrestler to gain a seed.  This is ludicrous especially considering it is at the middle school level and only for a seed, like it really matters. Just another reason for NOT seeding the state tourney. 

I will say this.  This year on the Youth and Middle school level I have never seen so much controversy in a year. There has been a lot of accusations/ complaints and overall dissatisfaction this year.  Not sure what is going on but something needs to change.  We can't afford to lose the level of professionalism needed to keep a program/league intact. 

Lets get it together and allow this great sport to grow with our youngens, so they can move on to the next level and teach them how to be adults later in life.  

Disclaimer needed.

These are the opinions of GOO nothing more nothing less.  In the overall scheme of things they mean very little you can take them or leave them it does not really mater. 

GOO out. 

[Ranger123 43]

It is my understanding that we follow KHSAA (i.e. NFHS) EXCEPT where outlined in our bylaws. According to those rules an unsportsmanlike dq does result in  further discipline for both wrestlers and coaches. I believe that is sitting out 2 additional events. 

[Just a Coach 78]

2 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:

It is my understanding that we follow KHSAA (i.e. NFHS) EXCEPT where outlined in our bylaws. According to those rules an unsportsmanlike dq does result in  further discipline for both wrestlers and coaches. I believe that is sitting out 2 additional events. 

Ranger,

 

         I looked into it after I first read this thread. KHSSA does call for further penalties, however i was unable to find anything in NFHS or USA wrestling rules that call for anything more than that particular day. If you know where to find it please tell me so I can have it for future reference.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Why do the Youth/middle school continue to try and re-invent the wheel.  They should follow the high school rules and Regs, wt. decent and all. Then you would not have to worry about the huge cost of USA cards. 

[REscalera 189]

55 minutes ago, Bulldoglife said:

      I am of a different opinion,if a coach bumps or drops a wrestler that is his decision. Regardless of his reasons it has been and always will be permitted. On the other hand you have a coach that lost his cool on the mat and verbally assaulted another coach out loud for everyone to hear, unsportsmanlike. Had that been a parent i hope the same consequences would have been levied.We have to remember we are there for the kids, we are supposed to be not just role models but good role models. The fact that the coach in question is a member of the board only compounds the issue, board members are also held to a higher standard than coaches as they should be.I know Coach Raney and personally I like him he has been a good coach and board member, however that does not excuse his actions last Saturday. He was ejected, took his punishment and that is that further punishment is not warranted by our by-laws, USA Wrestling or NFHS. His standing on the board is yet to be determined as both Youth VP positions are up for election this weekend. I suggest if this incident has swayed anyone opinion on that then they should vote accordingly. 

 

    That being said i do not personally attack other coaches or board members publicly neither do I  condone it. There is a Coach at Scott County who every time we face each other he gets my goat and he enjoys the hell out of it, we bicker back and forth. When the match or tournament are over we laugh and move on, neither one of us has ever tried to publicly humiliate one another or a wrestler. Sometimes adults forget we are here for the KIDS not ourselves, they are our future and if we don't set the standard then in 20 years were will Kentucky wrestling be?

 

Well said

[Beefstew 5]

On 1/28/2018 at 0:33 PM, Chris Duke said:

When a wrestler from Region 4 gets dq'd he has to forfeit his placement and is not allowed to compete at state.  I'm sure since he is the youth president and it's not someones agenda it will be overlooked and he will be allowed to coach at state.  He couldn't even follow instructions yesterday.  After he was kick out all he did was come back in and go to the stands.  

What did the coach do to get thrown out? 

[raidercoach 51]

5 hours ago, REscalera said:

I guess there's no rule regarding a coach being kicked out of a tournament? If that is the case than I would say no it's not a double standard.  It would be like one arguing that the 70lb Raney boy should get the 1 seed over the Vega boy because the Vega kid's coaches chose to run from the head to head opportunity because so long as the Vega/Raney match doesnt occur Vega maintains criteria because he was a state placer last year.  I would have no problem with that match avoidance being counted as a forfeit but rules are rules. The rules don't say anything about avoiding a match to avoid a loss so that one doesn't lose seeding criteria so the wrestler that is avoiding a match can't be penalized for it.  Just like the rules don't say anything about a coach having to miss state because he was kicked out of state duals. Maybe come next time rules meeting come around both of these situations can be addressed and we would avoid situations like this past weekend.  Because if you ask me it sounds like poor sportsmanship on both coaches. One was just not as explosive and visible as the other but present none the less.  However I see the other to have the potential of having a lasting negative impact on the wrestler than I do the one that got kicked out.  At least the one that got kicked out can speak to his team about how his actions were wrong and apologize.  The coach teaching his wrestler to run from a challenge and get something the easy way (the 1 seed)..... Well how's he going to address that? He's probably not. 

Really surprised by this response.  Trying to draw comparisons to an ADULT losing his cool, cussing, and threatening another adult in front of kids to bumping a kid up during a dual meet for seeding strategy makes no sense.  Even if that was the reason for moving Vega up for the dual, doing that is perfectly within the rules at every state, at every level of wrestling and is in no way poor sportsmanship.  What this coach did is specifically forbidden in the rules, poor sportsmanship, and horrible behavior in front of kids.  Coaches bump wrestlers up in dual meets all the time for many reasons....it is perfectly acceptable and within the rules.  Trying to justify the behavior of the coach's reaction to this is idiotic.  He messed up and was dealt with appropriately.

[raidercoach 51]

5 hours ago, REscalera said:

I guess there's no rule regarding a coach being kicked out of a tournament? If that is the case than I would say no it's not a double standard.  It would be like one arguing that the 70lb Raney boy should get the 1 seed over the Vega boy because the Vega kid's coaches chose to run from the head to head opportunity because so long as the Vega/Raney match doesnt occur Vega maintains criteria because he was a state placer last year.  I would have no problem with that match avoidance being counted as a forfeit but rules are rules. The rules don't say anything about avoiding a match to avoid a loss so that one doesn't lose seeding criteria so the wrestler that is avoiding a match can't be penalized for it.  Just like the rules don't say anything about a coach having to miss state because he was kicked out of state duals. Maybe come next time rules meeting come around both of these situations can be addressed and we would avoid situations like this past weekend.  Because if you ask me it sounds like poor sportsmanship on both coaches. One was just not as explosive and visible as the other but present none the less.  However I see the other to have the potential of having a lasting negative impact on the wrestler than I do the one that got kicked out.  At least the one that got kicked out can speak to his team about how his actions were wrong and apologize.  The coach teaching his wrestler to run from a challenge and get something the easy way (the 1 seed)..... Well how's he going to address that? He's probably not. 

Your opinion of "match avoidance" is very flawed.  You could make a case that any wrestler that ever cut a pound is "match avoiding".  I mean according to your logic, why "run form a challenge"?  Just wrestle your natural weight, hell bump up and wrestle heavier kids for the "challenge".  The goal is to put yourself in the best position to win, for the individual and for the team.  Whether it is managing weight to get to the optimal weight class or doing what you are accusing the Ryle coaches of doing, its all for the purpose of putting yourself in the best position to win.  I assure you no one is "teaching his wrestler to run from a challenge" and anything Vega got from a seed standpoint, he earned.    

[REscalera 189]

37 minutes ago, raidercoach said:

Really surprised by this response.  Trying to draw comparisons to an ADULT losing his cool, cussing, and threatening another adult in front of kids to bumping a kid up during a dual meet for seeding strategy makes no sense.  Even if that was the reason for moving Vega up for the dual, doing that is perfectly within the rules at every state, at every level of wrestling and is in no way poor sportsmanship.  What this coach did is specifically forbidden in the rules, poor sportsmanship, and horrible behavior in front of kids.  Coaches bump wrestlers up in dual meets all the time for many reasons....it is perfectly acceptable and within the rules.  Trying to justify the behavior of the coach's reaction to this is idiotic.  He messed up and was dealt with appropriately.

Sorry dude, I must have been speaking western KY code if you took what I said as justification for one's response.  That certainly was not the intent of my message.  I agree that his behavior was wrong and has no justification.  

As for your comment of "Even if that was the reason......is in now way poor sportsmanship."  So says the one that avoided the match to maintain a seed as opposed to letting it be determined on the mat by the boys as opposed to by grown men taking advantage of rules.   

Since when does poor sportsmanship only apply when one goes outside the rules?

 

[REscalera 189]

42 minutes ago, raidercoach said:

  Just wrestle your natural weight, hell bump up and wrestle heavier kids for the "challenge".  

I believe this is a great idea. If more kids would follow this approach during their developmental years (and I do include middle school in those developmental years) l believe we would have more success at retainment, less injuries and our kiddos would develop at a faster rate.

[MLee 68]

19 hours ago, REscalera said:

 

I’m not going to mention any kid by name. I just don’t think it’s appropriate.

With that stated, I can assure you the circumstances of that dual dictated who was waking on the mat. If it came down to the 70 lb match, we all know who would have wrestled. Ryle and McCracken both showed up guns-a-blazing to win. They both wrestled great and should be commended for showing up and competing, unlike many other programs.

As mentioned, comparing dual meet strategy and unsportsmanlike behavior are on different stratospheres.  

From what I recall, the rules state the “board” decides the punishment. Forgive me in advance if I’m wrong, but if I’m not...it’s a double standard.

For the record, I don’t propose the coach/board member should be banned. I’m sure he’s apologetic and learned from his mistake. With my limited dealings w/ him, I can say he’s a solid guy that is great for KY wrestling.  

But if he’s gets a pass then I think the 14 year old deserves one as well.

 

 

[REscalera 189]

2 hours ago, MLee said:

I’m not going to mention any kid by name. I just don’t think it’s appropriate.

With that stated, I can assure you the circumstances of that dual dictated who was waking on the mat. If it came down to the 70 lb match, we all know who would have wrestled. Ryle and McCracken both showed up guns-a-blazing to win. They both wrestled great and should be commended for showing up and competing, unlike many other programs.

As mentioned, comparing dual meet strategy and unsportsmanlike behavior are on different stratospheres.  

From what I recall, the rules state the “board” decides the punishment. Forgive me in advance if I’m wrong, but if I’m not...it’s a double standard.

For the record, I don’t propose the coach/board member should be banned. I’m sure he’s apologetic and learned from his mistake. With my limited dealings w/ him, I can say he’s a solid guy that is great for KY wrestling.  

But if he’s gets a pass then I think the 14 year old deserves one as well.

 

 

I didn't call the kid out I called the coach out.  As always the kids are unfortunate bystanders when adults get involved. 

[gameface 253]

10 hours ago, REscalera said:

I guess there's no rule regarding a coach being kicked out of a tournament? If that is the case than I would say no it's not a double standard.  It would be like one arguing that the 70lb Raney boy should get the 1 seed over the Vega boy because the Vega kid's coaches chose to run from the head to head opportunity because so long as the Vega/Raney match doesnt occur Vega maintains criteria because he was a state placer last year.  I would have no problem with that match avoidance being counted as a forfeit but rules are rules. The rules don't say anything about avoiding a match to avoid a loss so that one doesn't lose seeding criteria so the wrestler that is avoiding a match can't be penalized for it.  Just like the rules don't say anything about a coach having to miss state because he was kicked out of state duals. Maybe come next time rules meeting come around both of these situations can be addressed and we would avoid situations like this past weekend.  Because if you ask me it sounds like poor sportsmanship on both coaches. One was just not as explosive and visible as the other but present none the less.  However I see the other to have the potential of having a lasting negative impact on the wrestler than I do the one that got kicked out.  At least the one that got kicked out can speak to his team about how his actions were wrong and apologize.  The coach teaching his wrestler to run from a challenge and get something the easy way (the 1 seed)..... Well how's he going to address that? He's probably not. 

To add clarity, Ryle bumped 70,75,92,98,105,113,121. All for strategy and filling a few holes with 2 starters out for skin and 1 busted on weight and was sat. The line up was predetermined( not as defined by you as poor sportsmanship). And to even make your claim further from the truth, we bumped our 92 up to wrestle their 98, which actually is their 92 for state. So we put a kid with a #1 seed up against a kid that could have changed the draw our 92# with common opponents, if he lost. I know because he’s my son.( and no lasting impact for the fear of losing, per your analysis) But we did what was best for the team and put him up to 98. Secondly, to consider what we did in a dual tournament to the Youth President and coach calling the Dads in the stand Pus$!€s and stomping on the mat like he’s ready for a brawl is ludicrous!! Then after his 70# pinned ours, he grabs his crouch and says it again in front of the 2 girl wrestlers we have and the many fans in the stands. That to you is parallel?  

[Ranger123 43]

Just for reference, Ryle used exactly the same strategy against Walton in the finals at the Anderson County Duals. They believe bumping those kids makes their lineup stronger and it has proven to be a successful strategy. I would bet state seeding was not a consideration at all in this decision. Heck, from what I have seen of Vega they have no reason to think he would lose to anyone; kid has been lights out all year. 

[heavy83 15]

Just curious is McCracken a school team or club team? If it's a school team if his school finds out they will most likely reprimand.  But as being a board member he should immediately be removed. Just my 2 cents worth

[Armbar215 2]

Well I am sure that if anyone wants an explanation of why Ryle did what they did all they have to do is ask Coach Ruschell. He should be available Friday night at the coaches social at the hotel and at anytime on Saturday, but if he leaves in the middle of the conversation on Saturday it’s cause he has a kid to coach not cause he is afraid to talk about it. And furthermore you want to get on a coach for one match that didn’t happen what about all the other matches that didn’t happen because teams didn’t show. How many teams just didn’t go because of possible seeding matchups? At least Ryle showed up and didn’t back away and play it safe. Ryle wrestles one of the toughest schedules in the state if not the toughest schedule and doesn’t run from anyone.

[dutch 178]

1 hour ago, gameface said:

To add clarity, Ryle bumped 70,75,92,98,105,113,121. All for strategy and filling a few holes with 2 starters out for skin and 1 busted on weight and was sat. The line up was predetermined( not as defined by you as poor sportsmanship). And to even make your claim further from the truth, we bumped our 92 up to wrestle their 98, which actually is their 92 for state. So we put a kid with a #1 seed up against a kid that could have changed the draw our 92# with common opponents, if he lost. I know because he’s my son.( and no lasting impact for the fear of losing, per your analysis) But we did what was best for the team and put him up to 98. Secondly, to consider what we did in a dual tournament to the Youth President and coach calling the Dads in the stand Pus$!€s and stomping on the mat like he’s ready for a brawl is ludicrous!! Then after his 70# pinned ours, he grabs his crouch and says it again in front of the 2 girl wrestlers we have and the many fans in the stands. That to you is parallel?  

Sounds like it was a crazy event. Darren, why even waste your time explaining the line up you guys put on the mat. My guess is you guys did what you thought would put you in the best position to win. Hopefully it worked out. 

It sounds like the coach that acted like a fool needs to take a seat in the stands. He probably has no business leading kids. I have seen coaches lose their cool, but the behavior I have read this coach showed sounds ridiculous. If he would act a fool in front of a crowded gym, I can’t imagine what goes on during a practice. Hopefully the parents get together and fix the situation. 

[Just a Coach 78]

Plain and simple what Ryle did is perfectly legal, like it or not. They came to our duel we bumped our 190 to wrestle their heavy to make sure he got to wrestle the bumped a 92 up to 105 so my guy could wrestle. We all are supposed to have the best interest of our kids and teams as primary concern. It had been said before and will be said I like coach Raney but his actions should not go under the rug. Our kids are number 1 period. That being said I informed Tyler I would like my name on the Ballot for Youth Vp this weekend. We need to get back to basics and focus on them not us.