Breathing Issues at the Horse Park

[Irish Wrestler 10]

I think first and foremost the fight has to be the health of the participants involved . If there was some sort of an advantage given to a certain kid , this thread would blow up. But people don't seem as concerned when a unfair disadvantage is put on a group of kids with breathing issue . All caused by wrestling in an arena full of dirt.

 

I completely understand what you are saying about the dirt and the breathing problems.  I wonder if you could get a doctor to send a statement to the KHSAA regarding the health risks of the arena.  Maybe they would listen if the health industry got behind you.  Just a suggestion.

[Zeus 117]

What about EKU then? Do they have anything like Diddle Arena? Maybe KY State U in Frankfort has a facility we could use. I always liked the idea of the state tournament being in the state capitol.

[plantmanky1 58]

Problem with Diddle is that they wont let the mats on the gym floor and scheduling conflicts with the conference basketball schedule.  The KHSAA gets a break on the rental of Diddle because its a multi day event and having Football there as well, so its hard to say what the one/two rental would be.  

 

 

Also keep in mind that the youth state tournament follows HS every year, and currently both parties, KHSAA and Youth get a discount on the rental of the horsepark.  (its not very much but it is a discount)  

[plantmanky1 58]

I've been trying to avoid posting on this issue since the last time I did (and brought up some of the same points that have been embraced in this topic) I got absolutely ramrodded.

 

I know for a fact the KHSAA is trying to remedy the situation. Several of their workers have the same health issues that many here have been complaining about. Here are the major issues that have prevented us from moving anywhere else:

 

1) Contract. Horse Park has a contract with the KHSAA through either this season or next (I think it is this season). After that, they are going to look LONG AND HARD for another venue. Bear in mind, THIS IS THE VENUE THE COACH'S ASSOCIATION AT THE TIME SELECTED from the list of possible venues. Many of these issues that have arisen since the contract was signed they thought they had accounted for. Apparently not. 

 

2) Prices at other venues. Freedom Hall was the first and foremost choice for State. The issue was that the KY Fairgrounds people wanted $10 per car per entrance/exit. Meaning that those wrestlers who won their semi finals matches who often go back to the hotel and rested...would be charged $20 or more to do that. No joke. They were unwilling to waver on that either. 

 

Other than the Horse Park and Freedom Hall there aren't any other VIABLE places to host our State Tournament. YUM! is owned by a cooperation and based on what I've been told from others who have gone for events...it would not only be too large but parking would be miserable...plus the huge cost to rent it. I think Memorial on the campus of UK is too small to put down 6+ mats, although it may be worth exploring. NCAAs put the mats down edge-to-edge so if we could do that in Memorial I say go for that. 

 

Remember that the coaches wanted 6 or more mats down so whatever venue we go to has to not only have room for the nearly 100 schools that now sponsor wrestling, but also have room to put down all the mats LEGALLY. 

 

 

1. That is correct, I was told by the horse park it was a three year contract, with an option for a fourth year that had to be picked up after year one, which it was.  

 

2.  $10.00 parking is legit, I called the KY Fair board about the possibility of renting broadbent arena, and the first thing they said was, we can not drop the parking price.  Its a sticking point for what IMO (Broadbent or Freedom hall) would be a much better venue) 

 

3.  Yum is a $50,000 base rental plus add on charges for everything, the add on charge list is about 300 pages deep in their contract.  Also because of the contract with Louisville, than can only commit to one year at a time. 

 

4.  Rupp I dont think is allowed to commit to anything besides one year dates due to contract with UK basketball.  Secondly i'm not sure what the rental would be (about 5 years ago it was around $35,000, plus add ons) but in line with YUM I would think. 

 

5.  Memorial on UK's campus doesnt have a big enough floor space to hold the mats needed.  Plus dealing with University's on renting facilities is not easy by any means.  

 

 

Other Options?

What about EKU then? Do they have anything like Diddle Arena? Maybe KY State U in Frankfort has a facility we could use. I always liked the idea of the state tournament being in the state capitol.

 

Dont know about EKU, but K State uses the civic center, which is now out for wrestling as they have renovated the inside and no longer have room for wrestling mats. 

[plantmanky1 58]

Diddle would be a good location; however, that goes against the KHSAA trying to keep every state sporting event in Lexington (or at least not in Louisville)for their own selfish reasons. We were lucky to get a single mat for the finals.....only after fighting those "people". They will always do what best suits them. I'm all for a grass roots fight like the finals mat fight to get a venue change.

 

Not entirely true.

 

Volleyball is in Louisville at Valley High School,  Football is at WKU, Girls Basketball is at WKU, Girls Softball is at Owensboro. 

 

 

Soccer has been at Dunbar the last few years, Cross country is at the horse park, Boys basketball at Rupp, baseball at Whitaker park.  

 

So 4 out of the 9 major sports are not in Lexington.  

[plantmanky1 58]

The only thing that is better than the civic center is that the tourney can be done in 2 days instead of 3.

 

Have I ever had to get a contract on a venue for an event?  Yes.  An event as large as the Ky state tourney? No.  But I also do not have the same resources and manpower that the KHSAA has.  

 

We will never fill the 5,500 seats at the Horse Park if we keep losing spectators because they cannot attend because of medical issues.  

 

The KHSAA took a chance by re-locating the state tourney.  They did nor foresee the problems that would arise from the move. ie-dust and allergy issues.  Hopefully they are in the process of solving this problem.  It may take a few years to solve however.   PMK1  what do you expect from parents and fans?  Do you think that they have all the answers?  If they did they wouldn't complain.  Comments like "don't complain unless you have an answer" are silly.  If you had the answer you wouldn't be complaining.  KHSAA is paid to solve these problems.  How would they know there were any problems unless someone complains about them.  Geesh. 

 

What has to be weighed is the cost of a venue that will not have these problems and the cost of fans and wrestlers who have medical problems.  I'm one of the lucky ones that have no problem with the Horse Park.  It's a decent size, plenty of parking and seats.  The traffic in and out is quick and easy to navigate.  There are a lot of positives for the Horse Park, with one BIG negative.  

 

My complaint are:

1.  No brackets or updated brackets available.  (easy solution--- Sell brackets)

2.  Brackets are available on line, but no Wi-Fi (another easy solution-- offer Wi-Fi)

 

If you have ever been to any type of event you know that concession costs are high.  There should however be a place where wrestlers and coaches can go to consume their own food.  (Maybe a few Trailers out back, 1 for coaches, 1 for wrestlers and 1 with showers for wrestlers). 

 

But I'm just a redneck from KY that don't nows much about big city.

 

As usual:  These are the opinions of GOO you can take them or leave them.  It doesn't really matter one way or the other. 

GOO OUT>

 

I didn't say they had to have the answers, but complaining does no good if you don't offer possible solutions to the problem, even if they are not feasible, at least its something to ponder and either look into or rule out.  

 

You do bring up an excellent point about venue cost, if you knew the true numbers for the horse park you would be shocked.  Also I can attest the the horse park is the most feasible cost wise at the moment.  I think there is a small perception that the state wrestling tournament makes a lot more money than it really does.  

 

I can address the wifi connection issue at the horse park, their equipment can not handle all the fans on it all day long, thats why they charge a $500.00 connection fee to their wifi.  Last year I think only KHSAA and one media outlet paid the fee to have wifi.  

 

Also, there really isnt a place in the inner workings of the horse park for a coaches room, wrestlers room etc.   Not sure if they are permitted to bring in shower trailers, but im sure the financial cost of that would not be worth the payoff.  

[IWIN 49]

The venue issue is a direct result of our post season structure issue. Time to beat a dead horse. No pun intended. It is time to stop the watered down 32 man bracket. We have succeeded in getting our numbers up, wasn't that the goal? So now, I propose to end this 32 man State Tournament stuff. However you want to structure it, Districts, Regionals, State, or Regionals, Semi State, State. Whatever you want to call it, go back to a 16 man bracket. You can do a traditional 2 day tournament or you can knock it down to a one day tournament by eliminating kids that get beat in the first round. I know this isn't the most popular idea, but it does open up a whole new world of venues for us.

[grappler-of-old 44]

IWIN:  I'm not sure how long you have been around but:  in the 70's they had a true follow your man tourney.  They wrestled the championship bracket until the finalists were decided.  Only those who lost to the finalists were pulled back into the tourney to determine 3rd and 4th place.  From 80-86 (I think) the state tourney was run with a 16 man 1st round follow your man tourney.  That means if you lose in the 1st round then you are only pulled back in the tourney if the person you lost to wins in the second round.  Years of fighting finally got rid of that structure.  in 87 and 88 they tried the District, Region, Semi-State, State format.  That meant an 8 man 1 day state tourney.  That was disasterous.  No one was in favor of that format ever again.  

 

I was not a proponent of the 32 man bracket when it started.  However I have grown to enjoy it.  I believe just the opposite of what you are saying.   I believe we need to break up the mega regions into districts.  Keep the 32 man bracket and do what the middle school has done. Region 1 would be broken into 2 districts then the top four from each wt. class compete in a regional tourney and so on.  

 

Lets not go backwards and make the same mistakes again.  "Those who don't know history are bound to repeat it".  

[firemans34 33]

I haven't heard anyone say that they hated Frankfurt. Maybe adding districts again isn't so bad! Take the tourney back to 16 and to the venue with 4 mats that everyone loved....done in 2 days.

[IWIN 49]

GOO, thanks for the history lesson. Sounds like you have been around a long long long time. I've been around the last 20 plus years. I've seen some really good changes, and I've seen some really dumb things as well. The last thing I want us to do is to go backwards. But, in coming up with solutions to problems, ideas have to be tossed out for people to chew on. Right? I have not, and never will be a fan of the 32 man bracket. If we do what the middle school does, we will have a State Tournament with a 16 man bracket preceded by Districts and Regionals. So doesn't that kind of make your point of about believing just the opposite of me null and void? The follow your man tournaments of old do sound ridiculous. I was suggesting a 16 man bracket where if you lose the first round, your out, period. If you lose 2nd round, you wrestle for 5th-8th. If you lose in the semis, you wrestle for 3rd. Just because you know history, doesn't mean that you have answers. If you can take your history and add ideas, now we are getting somewhere.

[JCB0577 17]

NKU has a nice arena.  Not bad drive for us Northern Folks.  Lol

[plantmanky1 58]

I haven't heard anyone say that they hated Frankfurt. Maybe adding districts again isn't so bad! Take the tourney back to 16 and to the venue with 4 mats that everyone loved....done in 2 days.

See my post above, not sure where you think your going to have it in Frankfort, the Civic Center can no longer do wrestling in the arena after the Remodel.  

[grappler-of-old 44]

I never in my wildest dreams would have thought that I would have been fighting to keep the 32 man bracket.  But times change and the 32 man bracket has sparked interest in the state for wresting.  There is no other spectacle in the state of ky, than the Ky wrestling state tourney.  Thousands of fans come to an event for 2 days to watch hundreds of matches on a floor full of mats. 

 

I don't want to lose that.  I also don't want to change a format that works because of logistics.  You don't shorten a football field because there is not enough room, nor do you lower the rim of a basketball game because the ceiling is to low. 

 

So don't change the format of the wrestling state tourney because you are having trouble finding a venue.  There are venues out there it is just obtaining them. 

 

Lets focus on finding a venue that fits our needs more than changing our format.  What really needs to change is the posturing of the KHSAA and just doing what is best for wrestling. 

[plantmanky1 58]

I never in my wildest dreams would have thought that I would have been fighting to keep the 32 man bracket.  But times change and the 32 man bracket has sparked interest in the state for wresting.  There is no other spectacle in the state of ky, than the Ky wrestling state tourney.  Thousands of fans come to an event for 2 days to watch hundreds of matches on a floor full of mats. 

 

I don't want to lose that.  I also don't want to change a format that works because of logistics.  You don't shorten a football field because there is not enough room, nor do you lower the rim of a basketball game because the ceiling is to low. 

 

So don't change the format of the wrestling state tourney because you are having trouble finding a venue.  There are venues out there it is just obtaining them. 

 

Lets focus on finding a venue that fits our needs more than changing our format.  What really needs to change is the posturing of the KHSAA and just doing what is best for wrestling. 

 

What are you willing to pay for that venue?    Thats what it comes down to cost.   What are you willing to pay as admission?

[grappler-of-old 44]

Yes that is the question.  I personally don't care if KHSAA makes a dime on the Wrestling state tourney.  That is not what it is about.  I hope they break even by spendng everything else on the wrestlers and thier needs.  Which in this case is a new venue.

 

As for me personally for a two day event I would not mind paying $40-$45.  What other major event can you go to that is cheeper.  I would however like to see a reduced price for the participants parents.  Maybe each qualifier can buy two tournament tickets for the price of one.  Thats 898 tickets at half price.  The rest could be $40 for a tourney pass or $20 a day. 

 

How many spectators were at the state tourney last year?  2000 a day? Thats 1100 paying full price for $44,000 about 900 at half proce for 18000. Thats $62,000 on ticket sales. 

[halfhalfhalf 121]

the arena not being filled is not an issue in my eyes... When I qualified for state in TN in 2005-06 we were at McKenzie Arena at UTC. the upper deck of their arena was not filled at all and at the time of the finals no one sat in the upper decks. We paid 15 dollars a day (40 dollars for a 3 day pass) and 15 dollars for parking. 

[halfhalfhalf 121]

I do like GOO idea. I know it is about the dollar, but man butts in seats = more money for concession and other items. Buy 2 tix for price of 1 makes sense, but realistically it will not happen/ 

 

Something I think that needs to be addressed is the outrageous costs for food in the arena too and the inability to bring a TEAM cooler in. This is something that also needs to addressed. If not a cooler inside then, tables so we can eat lunch without sitting on a floor that horse crap and tractor tires run across. 

[Tyr 32]

32 man Bracket brings more kids and fans and interest to the sport .Nothings broke there so nothing to fix except some grown men who do not seem wise enough to seed a state tournament .

Bigger issue for the state is the ridiculous awards a kid wins a state title and doesnt even get a Bracket thats disgraceful .if they dropped to a 16 man bracket they wouldnt even get medals I suppose .Horrible I guess your kids are not worth printing up a couple bracket sheets.

people arguing over some dirty floors and large numbers when the kids who actually make it to the top of the podium who do the work get dumped on .

First there is crappy awards then you take their celebration away what will you geniuses cone up with next to take the fun out of it for the kids .

Then you have the security guards who back the crackhead moms who have their little delinquents running around thieving who when caught shed some tears to get the victims yelled at lol .send those little sobs and their mommas to jail.

[grappler-of-old 44]

The size of an award in no way trumps the advantage one wrestler recieves over another because of venue that causes alergies. 

 

Awards are not judged by the look or size but by what they represent.  Maybe in elementary or middle school.  At this level you are still trying to keep a kid interested, but not in high school.

 

After 4 or 5 years those medals are lost shoved into a box or in a fish tank.  Thats where I found my state medals.

 

The watering down of the celebration is annoying.  The finals just don't rock like it use to.  Or maybe I'm just getting old.

 

I think the Horse Park fits nicely for wrestling.  But we have to solve the alergy problem.  If we can solve it and stay at the Horse Park would be the best answer.

[Zeus 117]

Agree with GOO, I like the venue itself other than the breathing issues and the lack of showers for participants.  Also, team coolers should be allowed to be brought in.  I understand that the KHSAA wants people to buy concessions and can agree with that.  Maybe force teams to keep their coolers in a place where only wrestlers/coaches can be rather than the stands.  Then spectators have to buy concessions.  However I'm all for the best fit and exploring other facilities is not a bad idea.  Does anyone know if EKU has an arena and what it's like?

[grappler-of-old 44]

Maybe the coaches Association can help with the team cooler/shower situation.   If it is possible to bring in a type of trailer that can be used for showers and team coolers/food, maybe the Coaches Assoc. can help with the cost.

 

Just throwing things at the wall and seeing if they stick here, but.  Maybe some sort of O2 masks at the side of the mat for those who have allergies.  Heck I don't know just thinking out loud. 

[Tyr 32]

sorry but THE STATE CHAMPS IN KY DO NOT EVEN GET A BRACKET .its ridiculous .

of course the coaches got some nice Booty a couple yrs back didnt they .

trust me the wrestlers know they get the short end of the stick come awards time .

Dont make excuses for no Brackets for champs maybe if you win a couple you might agree.

[Zeus 117]

Agree about the no brackets, hell I got a bracket my senior year and I got beat in the finals. However this topic is about the venue.

[NO-OX 1 120]

I agree with everything that is being said. Bottom line the reason for this thread is the find out who had breathing issues. As I said earlier a fair level playing field for everyone should be first and foremost.. All kids with breathing and allergy issues are being cheated.

[Tyr 32]

If there are health issues it should certainly be addressed first and foremost .There are other issues as well ,Brackets are actually cheap ,cant see why they are not awarded .The Jr high state finals in ohio a few yrs back were held in a much worse Horse cattle arena than Alltech for a couple years ,I LIKE All Tech but my kids have no breathing or allergy issues and I couldnt really support a place that does if it hurts kids chances of a fair shot .

An arena like All Tech would be preferable to a HS ,Taking away the Celebration was BS as well the fans and kids looked forward to it and it was Harmless.