Best KY Team Ever?

[grappler-of-old 44]

 Austin would have pinned Shearer in the first period

 

I don't think anyone went to an AA tourney in those days.

 

There is not a Shearer on any of those teams (there was one in the early 80s) It would have been Turner or Newman.

[lpniewski 0]

I think the way to measure a team is to not look at individual achievements, but to look at the team as a complete entity. A team with 5 state champs, is impressive, but without a supporting cast, those 5 cannot win the overall state championship. In theory, they could lose every single dual they enter, and have 5 undefeated state champs, or even 5 national champs, but still have a poor dual record. There is a cap to how many points a single individual can score at state, regardless of talent. Bo Jordan could move to Kentucky and stick his way through the state tournament, but he wouldn't score any more points than any other kid who might not be on a national ranking, and pins all his opponents in 5:59. Also, in theory, you could have the best dual team ever, and not have a state champ or nationally ranked kid. I believe St. X won state without a kid in the finals, '98 or '99.

So this brings us to the point where 'the best ever' is still an easily debatable topic since it is nothing more than opinion. If we make the criteria more quantitative, then we can actually measure the best team from a statistical standpoint. My suggestion would be to take the total number of kids (even those that aren't starters) and divide that number by the total points scored at the state tournament. This would take away the advantage of those teams with overwhelming numbers. A team 98 kids on the roster is bound to find a kid that can roll around and not get manhandled. This also emphasizes the 'quality over quantity' coaching strategy.

This would bring us to a slippery slope. The team with only 2 kids on the roster, but both win state? Not the best team ever (Murton's?).

So, take the total number of kids in the starting lineup, divide that by total points scored at the state tournament to get 'average points scored per starter'.

I'm not going to do the math, but to me, that quantitative data would be hard to argue. But I'm going to take a guess that the South Oldham team with 13 placers is going to be hard to beat.

Oh man, that got out of control, sorry.

I'm going to go do some statistical analysis.

[raidercoach 51]

It's hard to compare era's.    You have to imagine taking those teams and give them the training of this era's teams   As for out of state comp. I'm sure CC was going across the river back then, They have been ever since Bankemper took the team.

I had a roommate in college that wrestled at Fairfield High School. He was an above average wrestler, but he only qualified for state once and never placed in Ohio. He beat Brandon Wilkens two years in a row at the Fairfield invitation. Brandon was a 5 time state placer and 2 time state champ on that CC team. Brandon was an awesome Kentucky wrestler. He could keep a match close with anyone and was always a gammer. However, I was shocked when I found out he lost to my roommate not once but twice. I think that illustrates how big the gap was back then between Kentucky and Cincinnati, let alone the rest of Ohio. This year's CC team has not only narrowed the gap, but they have proven that they can beat just about everyone over there except maybe one or two teams.

[Mpire 76]

Yes. Jamie was SK's first state champ.

He was a good dude ,

I don't think anyone went to an AA tourney in those days.

There is not a Shearer on any of those teams (there was one in the early 80s) It would have been Turner or Newman.

I was talking past top wrestlers Shearer being a st Champ , Newman would have lasted about 15 seconds lol

[Mpire 76]

I don't think anyone went to an AA tourney in those days.

There is not a Shearer on any of those teams (there was one in the early 80s) It would have been Turner or Newman.

I was talking past top wrestlers Shearer being a st Champ , Newman would have lasted about 15 seconds lol

Mat was a beast in the day but today there is a wide difference between the best and the rest . Not sure how good Newman was he was / is a great person.

And I'm

Not singling out just a few when I say 6 or so have AA potential and four already are that's a nice chunk , I agree union has nearly the same capabilities or the same who knows , but you

Can't claim superiority of a team who had inferior teams / less teams / and less talent and know how to go against /and yes four or five kids can win a big tourny with a decent team around them , that's the point take away the big guns and CC still has a competitive team , but take a kid like SAM and ad him to a Union team of last yr and the four pins and tech he had would have made it a blowout .

[crazyotto 381]

It's hard to compare era's. 

 

You have to imagine taking those teams and give them the training of this era's teams

 

As for out of state comp. I'm sure CC was going across the river back then, They have been ever since Bankemper took the team.

Very true, but it is fun to dream up scenarios. Who's to say the 1927 Yanks could beat the 1976 Reds? Different eras. I think the only measure that holds water is to look at how teams from different eras dominated that time period. Even so, it is not an apples to apples comparison.

[raidercoach 51]

Very true, but it is fun to dream up scenarios. Who's to say the 1927 Yanks could beat the 1976 Reds? Different eras. I think the only measure that holds water is to look at how teams from different eras dominated that time period. Even so, it is not an apples to apples comparison.

The only advantage the older era wrestlers had over the modern wrestlers was the ability to cut a ton of weight. Today's rules prevent it and rightfully so, but it would be an advantage if you compare line ups from different decades. It wasn't uncommon to see kids cut 20+ pounds back in the day. I would say the sheer size of the wrestlers around before the hydration and body fat tests would be considerably bigger than the modern kids when they actually stepped foot on the mat against each other in a hypothetical match. Larry Owens cut over 30 pounds to get to 142 to wrestle Gable. I still claim Louden Swain's upset of Brian Shute wasn't that big of a deal considering he was a state qualifier 2 weight classes higher the year before.

[Mpire 76]

It's funny when that show came out everyone thought it was hardcore , now it's funny to today's athletes Shute is wimp .

All those athletes of the past if they went through the same training and tournaments , might as good but that's just dumb ,like saying if you trained like a certain kid did what they did and all the rest yeah chances are your as good as them .

And yes those CC teams did go to OhIo !!!!!!!

How did they do ???????

Doubt they did as good as CC this yr ??

Doubt they had Kids beat OHIOs top ranked kids like CCs team did this yr ??

Doubt they had OWs in three different tourny by three different kids and won other individual stuff as well ?????

It's always something someone or somewhere better ,and it's true there is always someone better or some team

Better on a given day , but facts are facts a team back in Paleolithic ky times that beat a bunch of kida who didn't know the difference between a slide bye or throw bye is hardly comparable to a bunch of streamlined modern day wrestlers who dominate in two states and over a quarter of the team can go home and look at AA awards on their wall !!!! SK CC Woodford teams of the past did not have this kind of team yes four or so studs do not make a great team although it can but four or six studs usually turns into eight or twelve over time , the room snowballs , everyone gets better .

I have seen it over and over , a few studs make a team great a bunch of studs make everyone great , Campbell County has a great team better than last yrs better than ever , of course there are Those who disagree ,but Facts speak louder than words or old stats ,

I would say Unions team or Xs or possibly SKs would be the best ever without the current day comp ,

Either way just people's opinions and a few facts , I love living in the past as much as the next guy , but I was around in the past , there were not guys like these or the union kids or the X kids or kids like Cooper or Hiero who took advantage of all those before them and a dad who learned and fixed stuff as he went ,

All depends on what you use as a measure or consider best ,

I consider best winning , and winning on a high level , as well as dominating performance , with the high level being first measure , dominating a bunch of lesser trained lesser talented kids doesn't mean anything .

I have talked to some of the state champs of the past in ky and knew some as well , most wouldn't dare state they were better than these guys although some were hit in the head to hard and probably would , but they couldn't even coach these guys because they don't even know what they know .

[raidercoach 51]

It's funny when that show came out everyone thought it was hardcore , now it's funny to today's athletes Shute is wimp .

All those athletes of the past if they went through the same training and tournaments , might as good but that's just dumb ,like saying if you trained like a certain kid did what they did and all the rest yeah chances are your as good as them .

And yes those CC teams did go to OhIo !!!!!!!

How did they do ???????

Doubt they did as good as CC this yr ??

Doubt they had Kids beat OHIOs top ranked kids like CCs team did this yr ??

Doubt they had OWs in three different tourny by three different kids and won other individual stuff as well ?????

It's always something someone or somewhere better ,and it's true there is always someone better or some team

Better on a given day , but facts are facts a team back in Paleolithic ky times that beat a bunch of kida who didn't know the difference between a slide bye or throw bye is hardly comparable to a bunch of streamlined modern day wrestlers who dominate in two states and over a quarter of the team can go home and look at AA awards on their wall !!!! SK CC Woodford teams of the past did not have this kind of team yes four or so studs do not make a great team although it can but four or six studs usually turns into eight or twelve over time , the room snowballs , everyone gets better .

I have seen it over and over , a few studs make a team great a bunch of studs make everyone great , Campbell County has a great team better than last yrs better than ever , of course there are Those who disagree ,but Facts speak louder than words or old stats ,

I would say Unions team or Xs or possibly SKs would be the best ever without the current day comp ,

Either way just people's opinions and a few facts , I love living in the past as much as the next guy , but I was around in the past , there were not guys like these or the union kids or the X kids or kids like Cooper or Hiero who took advantage of all those before them and a dad who learned and fixed stuff as he went ,

All depends on what you use as a measure or consider best ,

I consider best winning , and winning on a high level , as well as dominating performance , with the high level being first measure , dominating a bunch of lesser trained lesser talented kids doesn't mean anything .

I have talked to some of the state champs of the past in ky and knew some as well , most wouldn't dare state they were better than these guys although some were hit in the head to hard and probably would , but they couldn't even coach these guys because they don't even know what they know .

I think it is safe to say that if this year's CC team wins state in dominating fashion they will be in everyone's mix for best team ever. Your comment about old technique made me laugh out loud because it is very true. Every now and then I throw in an old VHS tape of some of my old matches and am embarassed by our technique and I'm not THAT old. My brother pulled out the tape of his finals match to show his 9 year old son recently and it was the first time his son had ever seen a VHS tape...true story. He had no idea what it was. That was a nice kick to his ego. I bet the current Cincinnati Bengals could probably beat the 85' Bears, but it is still fun to debate. I'll take the 1987 Simon Kenton Pioneers because I'm very biased.

[raidercoach 51]

I don't know what I did there, but someone I quoted myself and Mpire at the same time.

[CCMS_SC 59]

I don't know what I did there, but someone I quoted myself and Mpire at the same time.

Ha Ha, I see you did a little editing as well.  What happened to the "and I hate CC!" at the end?  I wouldn't call it hate maybe extreme dislike, kinda like the face my kids made when they were younger and I made them eat peas.  Just wants to make you gag!

[raidercoach 51]

Ha Ha, I see you did a little editing as well. What happened to the "and I hate CC!" at the end? I wouldn't call it hate maybe extreme dislike, kinda like the face my kids made when they were younger and I made them eat peas. Just wants to make you gag!

Haha...you caught that huh? I deleted it because a) it's not true as I was only joking and I enjoy my amical back and forth with Mpire and didn't want to get his wrath!

[Zeus 117]

Being from Woodford County I am a little biased.  However as many have pointed out it is impossible to argue with our track record prior to the last half decade.  If you are going to argue that one of our teams is the best, which I agree with, I would think that Coach Carr's opinion is valuable in this discussion.  He has maintained since I've known him, 15 years now, that the 1993 is by far the best team Woodford Co has produced.  I don't remember the team even though I did attend the tournament at Atherton HS as a boy but he says that they would run through my senior year (2002, 3 champs, 5 finalists, 11 placers, 14 qualifiers), the 1997 and 2006 teams.  Says they were just studs with attitude and technique.  Just my and Coach Carr's opinions, for what they're worth.

[takedownartist 6]

Shear would take care of 220 this year with a dominating fashion hahaha! Keep pating your self on the back, thats what real men do,  

 

How any years you got left in KY? ah thats to bad  

[Mpire 76]

Not even sure who you are referring to but hopefully it's not me because the joke will be on you hahahah, I have a loooooonggggg time left as one is going out another will be starting that's about thirteen yrs hahahahahahahha ,

Some people are never happy , but that's good always shooting for better makes people better ,

Still sad at times when people do not realize whats in front of them , noticed it at SK at the dual qualifier , after the last match "" my wife said she hears someone say he wasn't impressed , I felt bad two kids give their all because everyone wanted to see it and some know nothing makes an ignorant comment so soon after a good match ,

The answer was simple , no one in the room particularly whoever made the comment ever had a match like that , always something better in some people's minds .

If they win state , CC goes out back to back state champs , state duals Champs , and the most successful Nky team ever VS Ohio comp ,

No question about it , The Team as a whole and the studs on it hammered everyone with dominating team and individual performances , the draw could change a lot the day could change more , Next week will answer a couple questions , the following will answer em all , and I don't hate Ryle , like some arch villain said when I was a younger me , "I PITY THE FOOLS "hahahahhahahahah

[Nkawtg 137]

I had a roommate in college that wrestled at Fairfield High School. He was an above average wrestler, but he only qualified for state once and never placed in Ohio. He beat Brandon Wilkens two years in a row at the Fairfield invitation. Brandon was a 5 time state placer and 2 time state champ on that CC team. Brandon was an awesome Kentucky wrestler. He could keep a match close with anyone and was always a gammer. However, I was shocked when I found out he lost to my roommate not once but twice. I think that illustrates how big the gap was back then between Kentucky and Cincinnati, let alone the rest of Ohio. This year's CC team has not only narrowed the gap, but they have proven that they can beat just about everyone over there except maybe one or two teams.

I had a roommate in college that wrestled at Fairfield High School. He was an above average wrestler, but he only qualified for state once and never placed in Ohio. He beat Brandon Wilkens two years in a row at the Fairfield invitation. Brandon was a 5 time state placer and 2 time state champ on that CC team. Brandon was an awesome Kentucky wrestler. He could keep a match close with anyone and was always a gammer. However, I was shocked when I found out he lost to my roommate not once but twice. I think that illustrates how big the gap was back then between Kentucky and Cincinnati, let alone the rest of Ohio. This year's CC team has not only narrowed the gap, but they have proven that they can beat just about everyone over there except maybe one or two teams.

Really? Are you really saying CC would be number three in Ohio behind Ed's and Graham? I'm not offering an opinion just trying to understand.

[raidercoach 51]

Really? Are you really saying CC would be number three in Ohio behind Ed's and Graham? I'm not offering an opinion just trying to understand.

I said in Cincinnati...neither of those teams are in Cincinnati.

[Nkawtg 137]

I'd agree with that. Thanks for clarifying.

Why is it Ryle and CC aren't wrestling Moe?

[Mpire 76]

Because Moe people run Swowca and didn't want their image tarnished , CC was first on the list for SWOWCA and they dropped them to seventh or so , doubt CC ever does SWOWCA any time soon , Moe doesn't do Fairfield or Hammer GMVA or Franklin the tournys CC did , no invite to super duals I guess , Moe has a great team probably between third and sixth in Ohio , I think CC would be top ten for sure with a chance to make top five , they would have have made state duals this yr and next in Ohio so one could say top eight .

Either way doesn't matter to me SAM will be moving on they avoided him one last time lol .

Of course this is all the delusional ramblings of a conspiracy theorist sports obsessed old man .

But I have a feeling they will see ATM before its over .

And as for Cincy raider said it right with the first number they can beat anyone over there except maybe 1 , Moeller a private school with kids on the team from all over southern Ohio !!!!!

[monkeyfighter 2]

Greatest team ever isnt always measured by team points or state champs. Id take a homegrown team built from the ground up over a bunch of free agents. Kudos to coaches that dont sell their souls for titles like campbell county. The peoples champions will be union county this year.

High school all americans are great but theres a new all american tournament that pops up every

Year. Im running one next year. Dave Barnes never was a high school all american, just a d1 ncaa all american. Whats better? No brainer. Ryle has one of those might have another one with tj. Union will get the next one with caleb probably. Time will tell with cc.

Best ky team ever - 1993 woodford easily. Not a homer either.

[eville dad 17]

This has been a great thread, but as all threads, they lead to CC and etc....... no problems here, I love the  hyperbole.

 

I have read post suggesting Woodford, Union, SK, CC, Hopkinsville, all good arguments,

 

I really like the comparison of the SK team when the tournament was just Elite 8.

 

I would throw in the Trinity teams with Fahy Hitchings, Bradbury, Ohlman, I think an argument can be made for them as well.  

 

The Trinity 2010 team won and loss was 46-17, maybe that should be the measurement for the best team. How the overall team performed is the reason a team wins from top to bottom. Maybe factor in some weighting for Pins and Major's, wheres our statistical analyst when you need em.

 

It seems the best team is not all about the individual champions, It really doesnt matter if the best wrestlers were nationally ranked or not, they are important but all of the teams had great champs, what about the rest of the team and as a team how did they perform.

 

So while this sport if made up of individual performances, its a team effort that makes up the greatest team in KY history..

 

 .

[Mpire 76]

Yawwwn. , well homegrown Sam and ATM were born in the county , can all of unions kids say that ,!????? LoL and you show your wrestling knowledge no AA like NHSCA AA s Fila or Fargo do not pop up all the time they are the original the best of the best , and what's better in HS a college AA or a HS AA , ask TJ how he felt wrestling that Fargo freshman AA from Moeller about a few yrs back and you will get a quick answer , and look at his class back then while your at it if you got the wrestling know how .

And as for all Americans at any level I will take ATM over anyone wrestling now from ky in HS Youth Middle or College , undefeated soph fresh national champ biggest frosh state champ ever in kY bro , No BRAINER indeed

And I agree evil dad the team has to be good no way CC Would have won all they have without a team of studs ,seriously they doubled Sk points in the finals , that's a huge win and that's a team win

As for soul selling ,allowing two kids to wrestle who have done so since the first grade and kindergarten is hardly an evil doing , more

Likely making them wait was the real sin ,

Throwing stones at B lol he sims does his job to the best he knows how balancing all the players ,

Great assistants Boggs and the rest grey McCubbins and Sparh this yr , funny every point you brought up was reversed on you the home grown , the AA , and the soul selling remarks ,

Doesn't matter to me where everyone came

From but CC holds a grudge against Carr who was there long ago , not me , i like carr and to each their own but I am sure they miss him just imagine had he stayed OMG ,

Just looked over the NHSCA sr nat invite for Stephen , 90% of either the champs or AAs Iin college competed there , just facts , and as for Fargo I have seem 4x state champs never AA there in four tries .what anyone does in college doesn't mean squat about now in HS that was the dumbest comment ever !

[CCMS_SC 59]

Greatest team ever isnt always measured by team points or state champs. Id take a homegrown team built from the ground up over a bunch of free agents. Kudos to coaches that dont sell their souls for titles like campbell county. The peoples champions will be union county this year.

High school all americans are great but theres a new all american tournament that pops up every

Year. Im running one next year. Dave Barnes never was a high school all american, just a d1 ncaa all american. Whats better? No brainer. Ryle has one of those might have another one with tj. Union will get the next one with caleb probably. Time will tell with cc.

Best ky team ever - 1993 woodford easily. Not a homer either.

Nice first post troll!  What team that is predicted to be in the top 5 is completely homegrown?  SK might be the only one but then again some of those boys may live closer to another school since I believe Kenton County has open enrollment.  And I'm pretty sure Chamblee wasn't brought up through that program.

[Old rebel 1]

Nice first post troll!  What team that is predicted to be in the top 5 is completely homegrown?  SK might be the only one but then again some of those boys may live closer to another school since I believe Kenton County has open enrollment.  And I'm pretty sure Chamblee wasn't brought up through that program.

Heiro wrestled at Twenhofel (SK middle school feeder) so maybe not always but middle school on he was.

[raidercoach 51]

Being from Woodford County I am a little biased. However as many have pointed out it is impossible to argue with our track record prior to the last half decade. If you are going to argue that one of our teams is the best, which I agree with, I would think that Coach Carr's opinion is valuable in this discussion. He has maintained since I've known him, 15 years now, that the 1993 is by far the best team Woodford Co has produced. I don't remember the team even though I did attend the tournament at Atherton HS as a boy but he says that they would run through my senior year (2002, 3 champs, 5 finalists, 11 placers, 14 qualifiers), the 1997 and 2006 teams. Says they were just studs with attitude and technique. Just my and Coach Carr's opinions, for what they're worth.

That is very interesting. Coach Carr is wrestling royalty and his opinion should count more than just about anyone else's from KY because he's seen it all. I wrestled against that team and they did have swagger. Kemper, Hecker, Washington and Meckely were all studs. Kemper had a very successful college career. He never qualified for nationals, but was in the toughest weight class in the history of the MAC conference his senior year with 2 All Americans in his weight class including the national champ Dwight Gardner from OU. I think Meckley went to Penn State to wrestle for a while and Dion Washington was probably the best wrestler to never win state in Kentucky. I'm not for sure, but I think Joe Carr Jr. was an 8th grader that year and won state. If that's the case, they had 3 champs with Carr, Kemper and Hecker and 2 runners-up with Chapman and Washington. Definitely a solid team.