Growth in Wrestling in Kentucky

[DamonMBarnes 13]

Or look at it a different way. The 1 and 2 seed get 2 #2's and while the 3 and 4 get a 1 and a 2. Not complicated.

I will say this again. This was done to see if it helps growth. If I remember correctly, and I know I do, when we went to the 32 man bracket there was a lot of whining about how oh it waters it down, yadi, yadi, yadi....yet it did its purpose. Took us from around 70 teams to over 100. Keep your eye on the big prize and not just the one for your team.

Is there any evidence that actually shows that is what grew the # of teams from 70 to 100?

[coachteater 70]

From khsaa website, it looks like 69 teams in 2000. Just under 100 now. I know that was about the time of the change. I'm sure coach mccoy has exact numbers, he doesn't make a habit if just throwing numbers out from no where.

[DamonMBarnes 13]

From khsaa website, it looks like 69 teams in 2000. Just under 100 now. I know that was about the time of the change. I'm sure coach mccoy has exact numbers, he doesn't make a habit if just throwing numbers out from no where

 

. I'm not questioning the numbers. Nor am I saying the reason is incorrect. I'm just curious if there is any actual evidence saying that is what caused the change. I don't recall hearing a program was started because the state tournament expanded from 16 to 32.

[Mpire 76]

Good point , that doesn't really add up , I like the 32 bracket and it does bring more kids to state , more profits to the tournament and something that has not been discussed much if at all .

16 kids will not fill up an Arena if 32 will not yet ,

No question about it 32 is better for the state right now more numbers more matches more interest from those coming to cheer on their kids . And I think deep down everyone thinks its better having more kids be able to say HEY I made it to state ,

Your placers and winners will still be the same and even they will be like hey I placed in that bigger class at state .

[raider 7]

Or look at it a different way. The 1 and 2 seed get 2 #2's and while the 3 and 4 get a 1 and a 2. Not complicated.

I will say this again. This was done to see if it helps growth. If I remember correctly, and I know I do, when we went to the 32 man bracket there was a lot of whining about how oh it waters it down, yadi, yadi, yadi....yet it did its purpose. Took us from around 70 teams to over 100. Keep your eye on the big prize and not just the one for your team.

I don't believe for a minute that the 32 man bracket has let to the addition of 30 teams. What has lead to that growth is the development of youth and middle schools wrestling in Kentucky. These leagues bring hundreds of new wrestlers to the sport every year. If you look at the timeline the evidence is obvious. The fact that more kids make the state tournament has zero impact on growth, though it may help retention.

[DamonMBarnes 13]

I don't believe for a minute that the 32 man bracket has let to the addition of 30 teams. What has lead to that growth is the development of youth and middle schools wrestling in Kentucky. These leagues bring hundreds of new wrestlers to the sport every year. If you look at the timeline the evidence is obvious. The fact that more kids make the state tournament has zero impact on growth, though it may help retention.

Are there instances where a middle school/youth program has came before the HS one?

[raider 7]

Are there instances where a middle school/youth program has came before the HS one?

The reinstatement of Boone county's program could be sited as one example. Youth and middle schoold programs at Ryle, gray, cooper, ockerman, and Conner all existed before the reinstatement and covered parts of Boone County's district. Beyond that direct correlation, overall increased participation increased awareness and interest in the sport and those have led to growth.

[Wky 25]

Was 2000 the first yr for the middle school state tour ? I could see this being a big factor in the growth if so .

[crazyotto 381]

I don't believe for a minute that the 32 man bracket has let to the addition of 30 teams. What has lead to that growth is the development of youth and middle schools wrestling in Kentucky. These leagues bring hundreds of new wrestlers to the sport every year. If you look at the timeline the evidence is obvious. The fact that more kids make the state tournament has zero impact on growth, though it may help retention.

I agree with this statement 100%. To build any program it is necessary to build from the ground up. Begin with the youth program. I have however changed my stance on the 32 man bracket. As the curent format sits, regional -> state, cutting the bracket in half would definitely leave some good kids at home. This would mean taking the top two from each region. If the asociation would add in a district event in front of the state championship then a 16 man bracket would work well. The state meet would be much more entertaining as well (no fish).

[cmccoy 4]

I will provide evidence from data that since the 32 man bracket was implemented growth has occurred. Keep in mind, the reason the KHSAA went to the 32 man bracket was to help lead to growth and give more individuals the chance to participate in the state tournament. I do think that the growth of youth programs has contributed but MOST youth programs are not started unless there is a High School team to feed into first. Notice I said MOST not ALL.

 

The KHSAA went to a 32 man bracket in the 2001-2002 season. In that season there were 65 teams. Eight teams from that year no longer have wreslting (Campbellsville, Ballard, KCD, Waggener, Covington Holy Cross, Frankfort, Oneida Baptist, and East Carter).The number of participants that entered the region tournaments was 708 participants. In five year period, 2002-2007, the number of schools increased to 74 and the total number of participants was 1,633 (828 entries in the Region tournaments). Over the next five years, 2007-2012, the number of schools again increased to 92 teams and the total number of participants was 1,926 (974 entries in the Region tournaments). 

 

Based on the data, the goal of the KHSAA worked. Wrestling has grown in both the number of teams and the number of participants. All of my data was taken from the KHSAA and the NFHS. The proof is in the pudding.

 

I will say this, I am a person who is open to criticism....when it is constructive. Some people get on here and complain yet offer no solution to the problem. Wrestling is growing. Period. Sometimes you have to take chances for something you believe in. Many coaches believe that growth will come with splitting the State Duals. Two things will happen....1. Nothing and we will take another look at the format or 2. Continued Growth. To me it is a win-win situation. 

[DamonMBarnes 13]

I will provide evidence from data that since the 32 man bracket was implemented growth has occurred. Keep in mind, the reason the KHSAA went to the 32 man bracket was to help lead to growth and give more individuals the chance to participate in the state tournament. I do think that the growth of youth programs has contributed but MOST youth programs are not started unless there is a High School team to feed into first. Notice I said MOST not ALL.

 

The KHSAA went to a 32 man bracket in the 2001-2002 season. In that season there were 65 teams. Eight teams from that year no longer have wreslting (Campbellsville, Ballard, KCD, Waggener, Covington Holy Cross, Frankfort, Oneida Baptist, and East Carter).The number of participants that entered the region tournaments was 708 participants. In five year period, 2002-2007, the number of schools increased to 74 and the total number of participants was 1,633 (828 entries in the Region tournaments). Over the next five years, 2007-2012, the number of schools again increased to 92 teams and the total number of participants was 1,926 (974 entries in the Region tournaments). 

 

Based on the data, the goal of the KHSAA worked. Wrestling has grown in both the number of teams and the number of participants. All of my data was taken from the KHSAA and the NFHS. The proof is in the pudding.

 

I will say this, I am a person who is open to criticism....when it is constructive. Some people get on here and complain yet offer no solution to the problem. Wrestling is growing. Period. Sometimes you have to take chances for something you believe in. Many coaches believe that growth will come with splitting the State Duals. Two things will happen....1. Nothing and we will take another look at the format or 2. Continued Growth. To me it is a win-win situation. 

Growth is happening, that much is not in question.  But, just because both A and B are occurring, that doesn't mean A caused B.  My original question was, is there anything that directly links the two? Do we have schools out there saying they started their programs because of an increased chance to make it to state?

 

It is a definite possibility that is what caused the growth of wrestling in the state.  But to simply state that both things happened during a time period and attribute one's happening to the other as fact, is a fallacy --- if the only thing supporting it are the dual occurrences.

[cmccoy 4]

I have never once said that the split nor the 32 man bracket were the direct cause of the growth. I have no doubt it is a combination of things. But I do believe that it all ties together. Success increases numbers in programs because kids want to be part of a winner. I have no doubt that the numbers at Larue grew due to their success. Heck, they have some of their accomplishments on a mat I believe. Their success came from a number of things including more opportunities.

[cmccoy 4]

Lets discuss this here.

[DamonMBarnes 13]

I have never once said that the split nor the 32 man bracket were the direct cause of the growth. I have no doubt it is a combination of things. But I do believe that it all ties together. Success increases numbers in programs because kids want to be part of a winner. I have no doubt that the numbers at Larue grew due to their success. Heck, they have some of their accomplishments on a mat I believe. Their success came from a number of things including more opportunities.

Sorry if I misread, but the "proof is in the pudding" comment lead me to believe you feel 32 has caused the growth.

[cmccoy 4]

My point with the proof is in the pudding comment is that growth has occurred since we went to the 32 man bracket. Data shows that. I agree it is not linked to only that but I do feel that it does play a part because it offers more opportunities. My frustration is that we often begin to put down "change" before "change" has a chance to run its course. I have my own opinions I do not share about Big School / Small School but I try to represent the coaches I have been chosen to represent. 

[tiltfor3 20]

Gentlemen, Gentlemen - Don't get hung up on numbers or individual data points. Trends are what is meaningful. Middle School or 32 man brackets? It doesn't matter. It is up and to the right which is the same trend you'd like to see in your 401K.

[Figure4 3]

I will mention a few things that could also contirbute to the growth of the sport in KY. 

 

• Youth wrestling and youth state
• Middle school being an association
• Colleges in the state that offer wrestling as a sport
• 32 man bracket (I would like to see the numbers and growth prior to 2001-2002.  Maybe from the mid 80s through 2000, if there was growth prior to 32 man bracket be instated, we can rule that out as the reason for the growth!!!)
• Better more qualified coaches

[DamonMBarnes 13]

I will mention a few things that could also contirbute to the growth of the sport in KY. 

 

• Youth wrestling and youth state
• Middle school being an association
• Colleges in the state that offer wrestling as a sport
• 32 man bracket (I would like to see the numbers and growth prior to 2001-2002.  Maybe from the mid 80s through 2000, if there was growth prior to 32 man bracket be instated, we can rule that out as the reason for the growth!!!)
• Better more qualified coaches

 

Also, overall population growth.  Check this out:

http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/kentucky/population-growth#chart

[cmccoy 4]

I think we can all agree that no matter what the cause is growth is happening and that is a good thing.

[crazyotto 381]

I think we can all agree that no matter what the cause is growth is happening and that is a good thing.

 

WINNER!!!!!!!

[KY_WAR_VET 3]

I think one thing the 32 Man Bracket does is it gives a wrestler a chance, and hope.

My point is, if we were still at a 16 man bracket new kids, or kids on teams that are not well established, may not stick with it very long, seeing that if you do not attend a school that is in the Top 10 year in and year out, that you don’t have much of a chance at success. A kid may start wrestling, but if they feel like they do not have much of a chance at success, they may quit the sport too early. This does effect growth. Small or new teams may start, but if they cannot see a little success, the wrestlers may not come back and the program folds. The 32 Man Bracket gives everyone hope, and a small chance that they may succeed, this keeps the kids coming back for more growing the sport and increasing the level of competition. Some may see it as watered down, but I see it as growth.

Proof is, KY is putting more kids into college wrestling than ever, and more KY kids are getting noticed on a national level than ever.

Maybe one day soon we can go back to a 16 man bracket, but have at Regional, Semi State, State format, or one like it, but as of now, I believe we should keep it the way it is.

[DamonMBarnes 13]

I think we can all agree that no matter what the cause is growth is happening and that is a good thing.

 

Definitely agree. The problem is if it's used to prove an idea that may or may not be true.

[Mpire 76]

I think one thing the 32 Man Bracket does is it gives a wrestler a chance, and hope.

My point is, if we were still at a 16 man bracket new kids, or kids on teams that are not well established, may not stick with it very long, seeing that if you do not attend a school that is in the Top 10 year in and year out, that you don’t have much of a chance at success. A kid may start wrestling, but if they feel like they do not have much of a chance at success, they may quit the sport too early. This does effect growth. Small or new teams may start, but if they cannot see a little success, the wrestlers may not come back and the program folds. The 32 Man Bracket gives everyone hope, and a small chance that they may succeed, this keeps the kids coming back for more growing the sport and increasing the level of competition. Some may see it as watered down, but I see it as growth.

Proof is, KY is putting more kids into college wrestling than ever, and more KY kids are getting noticed on a national level than ever.

Maybe one day soon we can go back to a 16 man bracket, but have at Regional, Semi State, State format, or one like it, but as of now, I believe we should keep it the way it is.

Nailed it .

[fanofwrestling6 14]

My point would be simple. Not evey wrestler is a number 1 or 2 seed which would take it down to 16 . The wrestling in Kentucky isn't big enough to hold a regional, then sectional, then state so why change it ? I really don't even understand why there is even a debate about this. Covington Catholic is coming aboard next year along with the chance for NCC also enterthing the ring. I can understand people wanting a seeded tournament but even if they kept it the way it is now the 1-4 and 2-3 would settle most the points about seeding and in every tournament yes there's going to be upsets. Not knocking any region but if region 6 draws some of the region (1) wrestlers I don't care what the seeds are I could very easily see some region (6) 4 seeds knocking off there 1 seeds (That's just an example)

 The important thing is that the word is spreading and getting into the middle schools (which is where my nephew got his start and when he started he wasn't very good he won 4 or 5 matches the whole season and right now he's 30-4 as a junior in high school) and the 32 man bracket certainly isn't hurting anything. Hope I'm not offending anyone about this but I've seen sports taken away by the khsaa and let me tell you it affected about 600 kids each year that played and now there isn't any interest for these kids to try something new. For the love of wrestling l hope there arn't too many debates. Debates cause seperations and seperations cause kids losing interest and that's what I never want to see happen .Let's not make this political !

[Irish Wrestler 10]

I think the thirty two man bracket is a good thing.  When you take a first year wrestler to the High School State Tournament you can see the transformation in their eyes.  The kids see the opening ceremonies and it gets in their heads and they see what they can accomplish.  If they have and older brother who participates and makes state it makes the younger kid craves it that much more.  The high school wrestlers working with the younger wrestlers is a good thing too.  The younger wrestlers look up to the older ones and want to be just like them.  I think KY wrestling has a good thing going on right now. I hope it continues to grow like crazy!