New State Duals Format

[Josh_Claywell 52]

Haven't seen much discussion on this yet. If there's a thread on it, feel free to delete/merge/whatever with this one.

Region duals, when it comes down to it, mean only one thing this year: seeding for region tourneys. No more of the top two teams from each region moving on to State Duals.

The Duals have been divided into big school-small school. Not sure of the exact cutoff, but Gary Canter told me it's around 1,000. I'm still not sure what to make of it.

Sectional Duals are Jan. 12. From the schedules I've received so far, Central Hardin and North Hardin are at Graves County, John Hardin is at Meade County and LaRue County is at Louisville Western.

What say you guys? Do you like this format? Or do you want to wait and see how it goes this year before passing judgment?

[halfhalfhalf 121]

Haven't seen much discussion on this yet. If there's a thread on it, feel free to delete/merge/whatever with this one.

Region duals, when it comes down to it, mean only one thing this year: seeding for region tourneys. No more of the top two teams from each region moving on to State Duals.

The Duals have been divided into big school-small school. Not sure of the exact cutoff, but Gary Canter told me it's around 1,000. I'm still not sure what to make of it.

Sectional Duals are Jan. 12. From the schedules I've received so far, Central Hardin and North Hardin are at Graves County, John Hardin is at Meade County and LaRue County is at Louisville Western.

What say you guys? Do you like this format? Or do you want to wait and see how it goes this year before passing judgment?

personally I am not a fan of it but it is what it is. My only question is where the heck are state duals going to be held at this year?

[mat-king 4]

Told state duals will be at Fern Creek

[halfhalfhalf 121]

I heard the same thing too.. But I was told it wasn't set in stone.

[Josh_Claywell 52]

LaRue County's schedule has it listed as being at Fern Creek, but others I have say Henry Clay.

[Jacketcoach 19]

State duals will be at Fern Creek this year.

[mat-king 4]

for both big and little?

[DamonMBarnes 13]

Does anyone know the "sectionals" alignment?

[coachteater 70]

Go to May 17th 2012 post "state duals". Coach Mccoy has it there.

[dscicle 6]

mat-king...yes suppossedly they are putting down 8 mats from what I've heard (4 for each division). 4 pools of 3 teams (much like what Middle School does). Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Will be interesting finding refs for this event now...lots of tournaments in KY that weekend at both the MS and HS level.

[Josh_Claywell 52]

Just found the topic, in case anyone would like to read through it:

[DamonMBarnes 13]

Just found the topic, in case anyone would like to read through it:

Thanks Josh

[DamonMBarnes 13]

I read through the original thread and I still don't see one good argument for why a small school can't "bump up" if it so chooses. The "big schools can't bump down" holds no weight because based on enrollments the big schools have an inherent advantage as they have a much larger pool to choose wrestlers from. However, if a small school feels it would be better served competing with the "big boys", what's the problem? While this split might have it's advantages; it will undoubtedly weaken the prestige associated with winning State Duals. To me there seems to be one of two underlying reasons for the split to have occurred, one with an easy remedy and the other isn't fixable.

Reason #1: A large portion of small schools don't feel they can compete with the big schools - I can sympathize with this to an extent but, it could easily be solved by just hosting a separate "Small School Only" State Duals similar to the "All A" tournaments used in basketball. With this option you give the small schools a chance to compete while still maintaining the prestige of State Duals. This would also meet the "encourage participation" argument used by some.

Reason #2: The big schools are tired of LaRue and Union whooping up on them. - In this case, I say "practice harder", but don't cheapen a premier event in our sport because you can't compete...

[Ranger123 43]

I'm with you Damon. State duals has just become another weekend event.

[J.W. 21]

Not that i care either way, but with the naysayers philosophy, why does the ncaa have 3 divisions and then there is naia. There is not a college dual for all of them to compete against each other.

[mat-king 4]

How could they put down 8 mats? Is the FC gym big enough to hold that many mats with the best teams in the state (i say that because many of the better teams have large fan bases that travel with them everywhere they go)And to have 8 Mats they would have to push in one side of bleachers, That would just be crazy with no room for fans with that many teams. and still i only see a possible 6 mats. I just do not see how that could be possible to do? Just got thinking about this

[DamonMBarnes 13]

Not that i care either way, but with the naysayers philosophy, why does the ncaa have 3 divisions and then there is naia. There is not a college dual for all of them to compete against each other.

...if a school chooses and meets the requirements it can make the move up divisions. The small schools in our state are not afforded this option.

[J.W. 21]

I believe one of the requirements is size of school which is the case here, again i, being military have lived in more states than most, and there are pros and cons to many states, leagues, etc. if the small school was goin to win the combined, they will win the small school division.... Still being crowned state duals champs. No team will get cohorted to the same college so the individuals will still make their claim to fame and scholarship run in mid February. Keep it about the wrestlers achievement and it is much easier to deal with rules like this that should have been thought out more.

[DamonMBarnes 13]

I believe one of the requirements is size of school which is the case here, again i, being military have lived in more states than most, and there are pros and cons to many states, leagues, etc. if the small school was goin to win the combined, they will win the small school division.... Still being crowned state duals champs. No team will get cohorted to the same college so the individuals will still make their claim to fame and scholarship run in mid February. Keep it about the wrestlers achievement and it is much easier to deal with rules like this that should have been thought out more.

There are attendance and participation requirements depending on sport, but no "size of the school" or enrollment requirements.

[cmccoy 4]

This was voted upon by coaches. I am going to remain neutral on this but I do want to address something DamonMBarnes has posted.....

Reason #2: The big schools are tired of LaRue and Union whooping up on them. - In this case, I say "practice harder", but don't cheapen a premier event in our sport because you can't compete...

Practice Harder? Have you ever walked a foot in my practice room? I don't think so. Trinity's? Probably not. Also, look at my schedule....Larue is on it so obviously I'm not tired of being whooped on by smaller schools. I welcome tougher competition. This wasn't about making it easier for bigger schools (in fact it was most fought for by the smaller schools) but before you go off making a statement about Coaches needing to practice harder you should probably look into what some are doing.

[DamonMBarnes 13]

This was voted upon by coaches. I am going to remain neutral on this but I do want to address something DamonMBarnes has posted.....

Reason #2: The big schools are tired of LaRue and Union whooping up on them. - In this case, I say "practice harder", but don't cheapen a premier event in our sport because you can't compete...

Practice Harder? Have you ever walked a foot in my practice room? I don't think so. Trinity's? Probably not. Also, look at my schedule....Larue is on it so obviously I'm not tired of being whooped on by smaller schools. I welcome tougher competition. This wasn't about making it easier for bigger schools (in fact it was most fought for by the smaller schools) but before you go off making a statement about Coaches needing to practice harder you should probably look into what some are doing.

As I said, I feel that one of the reasons I stated is where this truly comes from. I didn't say which one as I have no idea how the votes went down. However, I think you are taking my statement out of context as it only applies if you are a big school who doesn't want the small schools wrestling in a real State Duals championship . From your post this doesn't seem to be the case...

Could you possibly address the option of letting small schools bump up if they so choose? Like Ranger said, State Duals is now just "another weekend" instead of a premier event on the calendar.

[coachteater 70]

From the start of the talks about splitting the duals, it has always been about promotion of growth for wrestling in Kentucky.

And wouldn't letting small schools bump up defeat your purpose? You say its less meaningful now cause larue and union can't wrestle up to big school. But would it not make the small school title mean less for whoever wins it, if they are not in it?

I would like to see an at large, like they use to do in football. Have a small school winner and a big school winner, then they wrestle for at large title

[Josh_Claywell 52]

I think Damon is saying it'll mean less because of the split, not because schools like LaRue and Union can't bump up.

And I agree with him. Winning State Duals gave teams a reason to brag for an entire year, and it really proved who the best team was. Now that's it's split, that won't happen.

Damon, if I'm in the wrong here, my apologies. But that's where I think you're heading with your argument.

[DamonMBarnes 13]

I think Damon is saying it'll mean less because of the split, not because schools like LaRue and Union can't bump up.

And I agree with him. Winning State Duals gave teams a reason to brag for an entire year, and it really proved who the best team was. Now that's it's split, that won't happen.

Damon, if I'm in the wrong here, my apologies. But that's where I think you're heading with your argument.

Yep, this pretty much sums it up. Allowing schools the opportunity to bump up will help bring some of the prestige back to it --- but the prestige left when the split happened.

[coachteater 70]

What I am saying is the split has happened, so to keep the integrity of having two champs, the small school need to stay with there group. If not you end up with a small school champ that would have finished 2 or 3rd. That takes away from the small schools prestige of winning a title if the true small school champ wrestled with big schools. The small school champ would have no credibility then.

There is still bragging rites to winning. You don't see football teams like Louisville Central wanting to bump up to play Trinity for state. They are champions of there school size, and its prestigious. You don't devalue it because they didn't play "big" schools