No team scores for Youth State Tournament

[BadMadDad 16]

Large school/small school.

This determination should be based on # of kids turned in to USA wrestling by a certain date. This would deter teams from not taking a full roster just to avoid being placed in the large school division.

Again, the only fear I have about doing it this way is that it will encourage coaches to hold kids back to keep their numbers in line with small club guidlines. If it is done at state based on the average of kids that are signed up for state, I can't see how any of games can be played. We had several kids that had their USA Wrestling cards, but due to vacations, injuries and lack of money to travel, I think our club had about 25 kids at state. So, if we used the number of kids on our roster from a USA wrestling card standpoint, it would have been 25+ that didn't even make the trip. I'm sorry, but you can't hold that against the kids that make the trip down to wrestle at State.

[raidercoach 51]

Again, the only fear I have about doing it this way is that it will encourage coaches to hold kids back to keep their numbers in line with small club guidlines. If it is done at state based on the average of kids that are signed up for state, I can't see how any of games can be played. We had several kids that had their USA Wrestling cards, but due to vacations, injuries and lack of money to travel, I think our club had about 25 kids at state. So, if we used the number of kids on our roster from a USA wrestling card standpoint, it would have been 25+ that didn't even make the trip. I'm sorry, but you can't hold that against the kids that make the trip down to wrestle at State.

This makes a whole lot of sense to me. It still encourages teams with higher numbers to keep growing and inserts some fairness into the team scoring.

The only thing I like about using the numbers at the beginning of the season is it rewards teams who are able to retain their athletes AND get them to participate at state. I think coaches could use this as motivation to the kids and parents to honor their commitment to their team by not quitting or not showing up at state. Lets face it, the team scoring is just as much a reflection of the coaches as it is the kids. As coaches, we need to up our game and be held accountable too. Having said that, any team scoring system is better than none.

[trithis 34]

This is still amusing to say the least and to have so much attention being put to youth wrestling in June...is awesome! Keep talking it up and growing the sport. We only have 250 more high schools to start wrestling in KY to catch up with Ohio.

[MLee 68]

Here is a compromise...how about use the Regional rosters? Coaches have to submit their Regional roster to the State host team anyways to ensure the kids are qualified. By that point, all the "quitters" are gone. Also, there still is that incentive for coaches to get their whole team to go to State. Last year we had over 10 kids wrestle at Regionals that did not attend State...drove me nuts!

[MLee 68]

This is still amusing to say the least and to have so much attention being put to youth wrestling in June...is awesome! Keep talking it up and growing the sport. We only have 250 more high schools to start wrestling in KY to catch up with Ohio.

We would need Lake Erie to flood half the state in order for that to happen.

[BadMadDad 16]

This makes a whole lot of sense to me. It still encourages teams with higher numbers to keep growing and inserts some fairness into the team scoring.

The only thing I like about using the numbers at the beginning of the season is it rewards teams who are able to retain their athletes AND get them to participate at state. I think coaches could use this as motivation to the kids and parents to honor their commitment to their team by not quitting or not showing up at state. Lets face it, the team scoring is just as much a reflection of the coaches as it is the kids. As coaches, we need to up our game and be held accountable too. Having said that, any team scoring system is better than none.

You raise a very good point as well about retaining kids for the entire year. But the times have changed. What I mean is when we were kids, when we started anything, our parents made us honor that commitment. But as much as I hate to say it, that is not the case anymore. We had several kids come out for our team this year that did not wrestle in any tourneys but loved the workouts and the chance to be with their friends at practice. Perfect example, we have a kid on our team that has wrestled in practice with us for 3 years, but the idea of competition to this 8 year old makes him sick to his stomach. I know it is related to sports anxiety and we as coaches have tried several different techniques to try to rid him of this. I hate to turn the kid away because he is a very good wrestler, works out very hard but simply doesn’t want to compete. I’m sure age is a factor as well as maturity. I’m happy this kid has stayed with the sport because I believe he could be very good once he builds up his confidence. I know with our program, we make each kid pay for entry into each tourney we attend. So, we have left the decision making up to the parents/kids. We do not mandate that if a kid is on our youth team he must compete each and every weekend weekend. As a coach, if I have 20 kids on the team, but only ½ that number want to compete, I’m ok with that. Even more so when we enter the next year and the 10 that didn’t want to compete return to the sport and our program to continue building their wrestling knowledge base. When my son entered into wrestling at 6 years old we had him attend several practices, but only allowed him to wrestle in one tourney. For us, it was the best decision we ever made. Because when the next year came up, not only did he want to wrestle in every practice but wanted to go to every tourney he could. Now I know some that would say, why didn’t you make him wrestle more in his first year? The decision we made for him, made him hungry for more competition, and also helped him to understand that to get anything out of it that he had to give it his all.

[BadMadDad 16]

Here is a compromise...how about use the Regional rosters? Coaches have to submit their Regional roster to the State host team anyways to ensure the kids are qualified. By that point, all the "quitters" are gone. Also, there still is that incentive for coaches to get their whole team to go to State. Last year we had over 10 kids wrestle at Regionals that did not attend State...drove me nuts!

I'd be good with that. I had 2-3 kids that attended regionals that did not go to state. I agree it is crazy, but I'll take it. There could be many reasons why a parent wants them to compete locally but not at the state level.

[stalling 7]

We would need Lake Erie to flood half the state in order for that to happen.

If that were the case, we would then just switch gears and become the water polo Champions Of The Wooorrrrlllllld!

[Mike Calhoun 49]

Why not choose a peak number of scorers for each team, let's say you only score the top 30 kids from each club. That would give a smaller club more of an oppurtunity to compete with the larger ones, a perfect score would be if a team had 30 champions, in the case of a tie move on to the next highest placers for those teams until you reach a difference (32nd placer for team A 3rd place, 32nd placer for team B 2nd place, team B wins). This way a team with 40 kids would have a better chance against a team with 80 kids. We all know there is no perfect answer and we will never be able to satisfy everyone. Also, on another note, another way to attract parents/kids to a program is to be great role models (who we want our kids to learn fom and emulate is more important than any trophy), we should probably take a look at some of our own behavior and think before we post, no need for throwing dirt and name calling (I love the passion tho) when its obvious that everyone is really interested in the common good of growing the sport in KY.

[MLee 68]

Why not choose a peak number of scorers for each team, let's say you only score the top 30 kids from each club. That would give a smaller club more of an oppurtunity to compete with the larger ones, a perfect score would be if a team had 30 champions, in the case of a tie move on to the next highest placers for those teams until you reach a difference (32nd placer for team A 3rd place, 32nd placer for team B 2nd place, team B wins). This way a team with 40 kids would have a better chance against a team with 80 kids. We all know there is no perfect answer and we will never be able to satisfy everyone. Also, on another note, another way to attract parents/kids to a program is to be great role models (who we want our kids to learn fom and emulate is more important than any trophy), we should probably take a look at some of our own behavior and think before we post, no need for throwing dirt and name calling (I love the passion tho) when its obvious that everyone is really interested in the common good of growing the sport in KY.

That was another suggestion that has been brought up in the past. I like it too. If that was the format, we would have to allow all participant's team points be included in my opinion.

I think the best compromise is having some type of team scoring at the State Tournament and have State Duals. I have already begun the process of getting State Duals back. We have a really nice facility that is willing to work with us on a date. We've used it for our off-season training and a camp we had this week. I believe it is an ideal place for a great event. Maybe we can have the proceeds go towards helping new clubs? Just a thought. I'm going to start a new topic in hopes to get some good feedback.

As far as the name calling, I agree. I'm all for a heated debate, but it seems a bit trivial to resort to that.

[stanmms 4]

^{Got it. I am actually not all that passionate about this issue. I have my opinion and expressed it both at the meeting and here. Not a big fan of small school big school. But as I have said let's create age/weight brackets and score away.}

You do realize that having rigid/set age/weight brackets some brackets could have over 64 kids? Pretty dificult to wrestle a 64 man bracket in 3 hours.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Not to beat a dead horse, but.

wouldn't it be easier to look at one or two brackets that you would need to break up more than to have a whole tournament that you have to look at and seperate. Just make the maximum number of kids in a bracket. You can then look to break it down into more age groups.

Example: If you have a wt. class 4-6, 55 lbs. Ther are 40 kids in the bracket. Make a 4 year old bracket, a 5 year old bracket and a 6 year old bracket. Or whatever you need to do to break up those extrememly large brackets. I'm definately not the smartest one on here but it seems easier to just have to "work out" a couple of brackets, than having to "work out" the whole tourney.

Don't ger me wrong I'm still not a fan of scoring, but I'm not gonna win that arguement on this site. So I'll move on and try to work with what the majority believes and try to improve on that.

Yes I mostly enjoy the high school kids, but the youth kids become high school kids at some point so I have an interest in all levels.

And my selfish reason is that some day I hope to have Grand-Goo's who wrestle and I want the set up to be the best it can be when they start.

[stanmms 4]

Not to beat a dead horse, but.

wouldn't it be easier to look at one or two brackets that you would need to break up more than to have a whole tournament that you have to look at and seperate. Just make the maximum number of kids in a bracket. You can then look to break it down into more age groups.

Example: If you have a wt. class 4-6, 55 lbs. Ther are 40 kids in the bracket. Make a 4 year old bracket, a 5 year old bracket and a 6 year old bracket. Or whatever you need to do to break up those extrememly large brackets. I'm definately not the smartest one on here but it seems easier to just have to "work out" a couple of brackets, than having to "work out" the whole tourney.

Don't ger me wrong I'm still not a fan of scoring, but I'm not gonna win that arguement on this site. So I'll move on and try to work with what the majority believes and try to improve on that.

Yes I mostly enjoy the high school kids, but the youth kids become high school kids at some point so I have an interest in all levels.

And my selfish reason is that some day I hope to have Grand-Goo's who wrestle and I want the set up to be the best it can be when they start.

But then little goo wouldn't be the true state champ of 65lbs.

[stalling 7]

You do realize that having rigid/set age/weight brackets some brackets could have over 64 kids? Pretty dificult to wrestle a 64 man bracket in 3 hours.

Having never been to aKy youth £tate touney, I have to ask... why would you have to run a 64 man bracket in 3 hrs?is that all the time allowed or how does that work?

[MLee 68]

Having never been to aKy youth £tate touney, I have to ask... why would you have to run a 64 man bracket in 3 hrs?is that all the time allowed or how does that work?

We do 2 sessions for the Youth Tournament, each running about 3 hours long. Logistically, it works better to do multiple sessions for various reasons. For starters, asking a 5 or 6 year old to stay at a mat all day can be difficult. Also, if we had all 1000 kids and their families in the facility at once, it would be a zoo. Not sure it would be very enjoyable.

[eville dad 17]

Never having attended a KY Youth tournmament, I dont understand how a team could have an advantage by having more wrestlers.

Isnt there a rule on the number of scorers by team, by weight class, by age group?

[Ranger123 43]

Never having attended a KY Youth tournmament, I dont understand how a team could have an advantage by having more wrestlers.

Isnt there a rule on the number of scorers by team, by weight class, by age group?

No. To this point it has just been the top scorer in each bracket accumulates points for their team.

[raidercoach 51]

Never having attended a KY Youth tournmament, I dont understand how a team could have an advantage by having more wrestlers.

Isnt there a rule on the number of scorers by team, by weight class, by age group?

Not really. The only rule is that only one wrestler's team points count per weight class. Hence, you could have 3 placers in one bracket from one team and only the highest placer counts. That does offset some of the advantage that larger teams have, but realistically the more kids you bring the more potential points you can earn.

[J.W. 21]

I am with Goo. Age groups, Weight classes, weigh ins and make the few necessary adjustments if there is truly a 64 man bracket, but I don't think that would be the case very often.

But seems many here are more against weighing in.

[Ranger123 43]

Yeah, weighing in has historically been a disaster. I have concerns about the accuracy of kids' weight, but wouldn't say same day weigh ins are the answer.

[MLee 68]

I am with Goo. Age groups, Weight classes, weigh ins and make the few necessary adjustments if there is truly a 64 man bracket, but I don't think that would be the case very often.

But seems many here are more against weighing in.

It would be more than a few adjustments. There would be multiple weight classes of 20+. In these situtations, how do you separate? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having "true" state champions? Is anyone concerned about posting weight classes at the beginning of the season and having youth kids try to maintain a certain weight class for an entire season?

[Ranger123 43]

Any youth coach worth anything would make it clear his kids should not be cutting weight to maintain a weight class. But I am not naive enough to think that some coaches will not push kids to make certain weights to fill holes in their squad. That doesn't mean the system is wrong, just that we have coaches more focused on winning than on the kids.

[MLee 68]

Any youth coach worth anything would make it clear his kids should not be cutting weight to maintain a weight class. But I am not naive enough to think that some coaches will not push kids to make certain weights to fill holes in their squad. That doesn't mean the system is wrong, just that we have coaches more focused on winning than on the kids.

I agree, but doesn't the 10% rule eliminate this from being an issue? Shouldn't the rules and bylaws focus on the safety of the kids first? You said it yourself, there will be some coaches that will push kids to make a weight class. There will also be some parents that will push their kids to weight cut (I've seen it firsthand). Also, don't underestimate an over-zealous kid keeping his weight down on his own.

If we posted the youth weight classes at the beginning of the year, there would be weight cutting going on throughout our state. We could not stop it. And before people use other states as an example, remember the 10% rule is relatively new. A lot of the major states who've had youth wrestling for a lot longer than KY are moving towards it.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Once again don't keep score and those coaches will not force their kids to go down a wt. class or try and fill a wt. class.

[Ranger123 43]

Definitely doesn't eliminate it. I have seen kids not eat and work to lose weight just to keep their weight down under the 10% rule.

I would have to see a major state using the 10% rule for post season competition before I would believe it.