No team scores for Youth State Tournament

[MLee 68]

I was shocked to hear coaches actually voted against having team scores at our Youth State Tournament. I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks about this decision.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

I'm not shocked at all. Some teams just bring way too many kids compared to others. I'm personally not a fan of the age/weight divisions either. I guess it's nice for the large number of kids who get to call themselves state champions, because they probably wouldnt get to under normal circumstances, but like I said not a fan of it.

[Chris Duke 284]

In the youth, team scores has a little to do with talent and a lot to do with team numbers. Its not a bad idea to do away with the team scores. I would like to see bigger brackets. Our STATE tournament is nothing but another tournament. The kids need to feel like they accomplished something 8 man brackets are terrible for a "STATE" winner.

[BadMadDad 16]

Personally I’m glad they got rid of team scoring at the youth level, small programs never seem to have a chance against the large programs. It had been suggested in the past to do a big school/small school set up, but no one seemed willing to change.

However, at the youth level I am still a big fan of the 8 man brackets. Once the kids step up to middle school they will start seeing 16 man brackets on a regular basis. I can understand the thought process of mixing the age groups together, but at the youth level a 2 year age difference can mean a huge strength difference as well. Since the idea is to grow the sport of wrestling in KY, what harm is being done by allowing several state champs? I think by doing the 8 man brackets we have more winners and keep the interest of the kids involved. Like everything else in life, it get harder as you move up. MS wrestlers have to make their way through a long regular season and if they make it through Districts (in some cases fighting their way out of a 32 man bracket) to regions (8man bracket) to state (16 man bracket) at set weight classes, not the 10% rule. In HS, only 1 kid from each school can wrestle at the varsity level. So like anything else it is a progression of difficulty.

[raidercoach 51]

I say we just eliminate the individual state placings and just put all of the kids in small round robin brackets, so they can wrestle everyone and give all of the kids a nice pretty yellow ribbon for showing up. As ridiculous as that sounds, that is essentially the same thinking that resulted in doing away with the team scores. THIS IS COMPETITION! Personally, I would be embarrassed as a coach and as a competitor to have voted to eliminate the team score because by doing so you are basically saying "I can't win, therefore, no one should win".

There really isn't one logical reason to eliminate team scores that benefits anyone, including those "smaller" programs that currently aren't very successful. Team scores are a quantitative measurement to demonstrate how your team compares with every other team. Our state tournament is the only youth tournament where most, unfortunately not all, of the teams from around the state show up. Without team scores, how do you know how your team stacks up against the rest of the state? Knowing where you stack up can only help you get better.

Every year we set a goal to win the state tournament as a team. We also look at the gap between us and the other teams compared to years in the past. Is it getting bigger or smaller? That's a great indicator of our success compared to the rest of the state. And we use that information to not only motivate our kids but to motivate the parents and the coaches. Most importantly as a coach, it is one of the ways we measure ourselves. Otherwise, how do you measure how you are performing as a coach?

The participation argument doesn't hold water with me. As a coach for Raider youth, we look at two main areas to determine our success: results on the mat and participation growth. Coaches need to analyze their participation: Are we growing or not? Are we retaining our kids or not? Do we have enough coaches per kid or not? The excuse I hear over and over is, "well we don't have as many kids as some of the larger programs so its not fair". Participation is a big measurement of how well the COACHES are performing. It is a huge part of competing as a coach. If the coaches can't get the numbers up and maintain participation to compete, then they need to either improve or get someone who can. Every great program in any sport has one or two people who are great recruiters. Simply saying "we can't get the numbers that other programs get" is just an excuse. After all, its not like Union, Ky is a huge metropolitan area. Its offensive how other coaches imply that large programs like Raider youth just opened the door and 100 kids showed up. It trivializes all of the hard work that many people put into building that program.

I'd like one of the coaches who voted against the team scores to explain how this will help anything. Obviously, being a coach for the defending state champions, we love having team scores because it helps us market our team and its fun being associated with a winning team. But, I would feel the same way if I coached a team that finished last at state. It makes no sense and certainly doesn't help promote the sport or the tournament.

[raidercoach 51]

In the youth, team scores has a little to do with talent and a lot to do with team numbers. Its not a bad idea to do away with the team scores. I would like to see bigger brackets. Our STATE tournament is nothing but another tournament. The kids need to feel like they accomplished something 8 man brackets are terrible for a "STATE" winner.

I think if you looked at the numbers closely, the same teams that have a lot of kids, do exceptionally well on a per participant basis also in the state tournament. I know it has been broken down before, but Raider Youth won the tournament the last few years (largely by having a high amount of participants), BUT they also had one the best if not the best average state placing per participant. I think that is pretty telling....get your participation numbers up and your kids will do better individually. It is common sense, but in a sport like wrestling the more work out partners you have the better you're going to get.

[raidercoach 51]

Personally I’m glad they got rid of team scoring at the youth level, small programs never seem to have a chance against the large programs. It had been suggested in the past to do a big school/small school set up, but no one seemed willing to change. However, at the youth level I am still a big fan of the 8 man brackets. Once the kids step up to middle school they will start seeing 16 man brackets on a regular basis. I can understand the thought process of mixing the age groups together, but at the youth level a 2 year age difference can mean a huge strength difference as well. Since the idea is to grow the sport of wrestling in KY, what harm is being done by allowing several state champs? I think by doing the 8 man brackets we have more winners and keep the interest of the kids involved. Like everything else in life, it get harder as you move up. MS wrestlers have to make their way through a long regular season and if they make it through Districts (in some cases fighting their way out of a 32 man bracket) to regions (8man bracket) to state (16 man bracket) at set weight classes, not the 10% rule. In HS, only 1 kid from each school can wrestle at the varsity level. So like anything else it is a progression of difficulty.

Every team has a chance! There is no evidence to support, at least with wrestling, that the larger the school the better the team. If you get the right people in place, any team can compete. There are many small schools in this state, that have not only competed, but have won state titles. Sheldon Clark and Union County are two examples.

[Chris Duke 284]

Raidercoach there is no doubt you guys have a great program. In the past couple years it hasn't hurt that the Raiders have had a hand in putting the youth tournament together. Its a little easier to win if you can control some of the match ups. If you want a team champ you need to make weights and bigger brackets. If you don't is just watered down.

[raidercoach 51]

Raidercoach there is no doubt you guys have a great program. In the past couple years it hasn't hurt that the Raiders have had a hand in putting the youth tournament together. Its a little easier to win if you can control some of the match ups. If you want a team champ you need to make weights and bigger brackets. If you don't is just watered down.

Wow...that is a bold accusation and totally inaccurate. I don't recall us having anything to do with setting the brackets last year and it was arguably our most dominant state performance. The year before we ran the tournament and I personally was in the room when the brackets were drawn and there were NO controlling of match ups. I'd love to hear any evidence you have that we "controlled match ups", but I won't hold my breath because I know you have none. I guess haters are going to hate.

[raidercoach 51]

Raidercoach there is no doubt you guys have a great program. In the past couple years it hasn't hurt that the Raiders have had a hand in putting the youth tournament together. Its a little easier to win if you can control some of the match ups. If you want a team champ you need to make weights and bigger brackets. If you don't is just watered down.

There is no doubt the state tournament is watered down, but so is our high school tournament. The argument for letting everyone participate at state is to help grow the sport. I don't agree with making weight classes at the youth level for many reasons, but that is an old debate that I don't care to get into again.

[plantmanky1 58]

I say we just eliminate the individual state placings and just put all of the kids in small round robin brackets, so they can wrestle everyone and give all of the kids a nice pretty yellow ribbon for showing up. As ridiculous as that sounds, that is essentially the same thinking that resulted in doing away with the team scores. THIS IS COMPETITION! Personally, I would be embarrassed as a coach and as a competitor to have voted to eliminate the team score because by doing so you are basically saying "I can't win, therefore, no one should win".

There really isn't one logical reason to eliminate team scores that benefits anyone, including those "smaller" programs that currently aren't very successful. Team scores are a quantitative measurement to demonstrate how your team compares with every other team. Our state tournament is the only youth tournament where most, unfortunately not all, of the teams from around the state show up. Without team scores, how do you know how your team stacks up against the rest of the state? Knowing where you stack up can only help you get better.

Every year we set a goal to win the state tournament as a team. We also look at the gap between us and the other teams compared to years in the past. Is it getting bigger or smaller? That's a great indicator of our success compared to the rest of the state. And we use that information to not only motivate our kids but to motivate the parents and the coaches. Most importantly as a coach, it is one of the ways we measure ourselves. Otherwise, how do you measure how you are performing as a coach?

The participation argument doesn't hold water with me. As a coach for Raider youth, we look at two main areas to determine our success: results on the mat and participation growth. Coaches need to analyze their participation: Are we growing or not? Are we retaining our kids or not? Do we have enough coaches per kid or not? The excuse I hear over and over is, "well we don't have as many kids as some of the larger programs so its not fair". Participation is a big measurement of how well the COACHES are performing. It is a huge part of competing as a coach. If the coaches can't get the numbers up and maintain participation to compete, then they need to either improve or get someone who can. Every great program in any sport has one or two people who are great recruiters. Simply saying "we can't get the numbers that other programs get" is just an excuse. After all, its not like Union, Ky is a huge metropolitan area. Its offensive how other coaches imply that large programs like Raider youth just opened the door and 100 kids showed up. It trivializes all of the hard work that many people put into building that program.

I'd like one of the coaches who voted against the team scores to explain how this will help anything. Obviously, being a coach for the defending state champions, we love having team scores because it helps us market our team and its fun being associated with a winning team. But, I would feel the same way if I coached a team that finished last at state. It makes no sense and certainly doesn't help promote the sport or the tournament.

I thought youth wresting was about development of wrestlers?

[MLee 68]

I guess we had something to do with the 7 Middle School finalist's brackets that came from our club too. We also bracketed the High School tournament to pave the way for all those Ryle State Champions. The only reason Kyle Ruschell was an All American was because our Youth Team conspired to create those brackets too.

[plantmanky1 58]

Wow...that is a bold accusation and totally inaccurate. I don't recall us having anything to do with setting the brackets last year and it was arguably our most dominant state performance. The year before we ran the tournament and I personally was in the room when the brackets were drawn and there were NO controlling of match ups. I'd love to hear any evidence you have that we "controlled match ups", but I won't hold my breath because I know you have none. I guess haters are going to hate.

I would say that leaving 40 or so kids off the brackets from one of your rival programs could be considered as (evidence you have that we "controlled match ups") as you put it. Now, I seriously doubt that this was done with any intent, but you asked for evidence, I gave you something that could be considered evidence, do what you want with it.

[raidercoach 51]

I thought youth wresting was about development of wrestlers?

It is....and learning about competition is a HUGE part of that development. Is it not?

[BadMadDad 16]

Raidercoach there is no doubt you guys have a great program. In the past couple years it hasn't hurt that the Raiders have had a hand in putting the youth tournament together. Its a little easier to win if you can control some of the match ups. If you want a team champ you need to make weights and bigger brackets. If you don't is just watered down.

Chris, I completely agree. The Raiders have an outstanding team and that shows at tourney time. However, when I walked into the youth state tourney this year I had two coaches (from different schools) tell me that the brackets had been completed by Thursday but were called into review and changed by one team’s head coach on the Friday before state. Why did a coach from outside the hosting region have to review the brackets? Why was a coach from outside of the region allowed to make changes? If I’m not mistaken, it is the hosting team/regions’ responsibility to set the brackets. So why would any coach from a team outside of the hosts be allowed to make changes? The coach was allowed to change the brackets around and then a couple of teams had kids that were completely missing from any brackets. I’m not pointing fingers or throwing anybody under the bus, just passing along what I was told. I know in my sons’ bracket it was set with 7 kids at the start, but 2 kids were left out. So when the brackets were adjusted yet again, my son had to wrestle 3 matches just to make the finals. If any of the above was not true, please feel free to correct me. I think that it is a great idea to rotate who hosts and share in the revenue made. But, that being said, the region needs to set everything and not share the brackets unless they are being sent to every youth head coach in the state.

[MLee 68]

Plantman, you simply got your facts wrong. The brackets were generated by a gentleman from Harrison County. We (multiple youth coaches) noticed they were not sorted correctly the night before, therefore they had to be re-done. The person who generated the brackets was also a High School coach and was unable to fix the problem; therefore, I volunteered to re-sort and print. The 40 SKY kids were left off the master spreadsheet I received from the Harrison County Coach. Not sure how exactly it happened, but it had absolutely nothing to do w/ us.

[BadMadDad 16]

Every team has a chance! There is no evidence to support, at least with wrestling, that the larger the school the better the team. If you get the right people in place, any team can compete. There are many small schools in this state, that have not only competed, but have won state titles. Sheldon Clark and Union County are two examples.

I did not say the larger the school, the better the team. What I meant by saying the smaller schools don’t have a chance is that if I bring 100 kids to the tourney and 50 of them medal, how is a team of 25-30 kids expected to compete with that? I read that they can bust their butts doing recruiting and getting the word out to try to grow the program, and I can’t argue that. However if a team is working out in a small area and lacks parents with any wrestling experience they are going to be limited. Not every team has a full size gym to use. Most youth teams are sharing mats with the middle school and since practice is at the middle school, they must work around an already tight schedule.

[raidercoach 51]

^{You guys really should do some fact checking before you make these accusations. If it makes you feel better at night that the results would be different if we had larger brackets, weight classes, qualifying tournaments, no team scores, full disclosure on brackets and whatever other excuses you want to make than so be it. But, I know the Raider Coaches wouldn't do what you are implying. Anything that was done last year was done out of support in an attempt to get the brackets correct. All of this hating is just validation for our program.}

^{I did not say the larger the school, the better the team. What I meant by saying the smaller schools don’t have a chance is that if I bring 100 kids to the tourney and 50 of them medal, how is a team of 25-30 kids expected to compete with that? I read that they can bust their butts doing recruiting and getting the word out to try to grow the program, and I can’t argue that. However if a team is working out in a small area and lacks parents with any wrestling experience they are going to be limited. Not every team has a full size gym to use. Most youth teams are sharing mats with the middle school and since practice is at the middle school, they must work around an already tight schedule.}

^{Every obstacle you listed, every successful team dealt with at one point or another. I know we dealt with and continue to deal with everything you mentioned.}

[BadMadDad 16]

Wow...that is a bold accusation and totally inaccurate. I don't recall us having anything to do with setting the brackets last year and it was arguably our most dominant state performance. The year before we ran the tournament and I personally was in the room when the brackets were drawn and there were NO controlling of match ups. I'd love to hear any evidence you have that we "controlled match ups", but I won't hold my breath because I know you have none. I guess haters are going to hate.

I find this funny because I have an excel spreadsheet that shows how messed up the bracketing was just from the 80-90 lbs for the 11-12 year olds from 2 years ago when your club ran the tourney. I didn’t even bother to look at some of the other age groups as we had an older youth team two years ago. But I’m sure I could go back and look if you really want to get into that. The way I see it is the past is the past and there is no sense in dwelling there. Only moving forward and trying not to let the same mistakes happen again.

[raidercoach 51]

I did not say the larger the school, the better the team. What I meant by saying the smaller schools don’t have a chance is that if I bring 100 kids to the tourney and 50 of them medal, how is a team of 25-30 kids expected to compete with that? I read that they can bust their butts doing recruiting and getting the word out to try to grow the program, and I can’t argue that. However if a team is working out in a small area and lacks parents with any wrestling experience they are going to be limited. Not every team has a full size gym to use. Most youth teams are sharing mats with the middle school and since practice is at the middle school, they must work around an already tight schedule.

You compete by getting more kids out!

[MLee 68]

Let me clear the air about the brackets. The brackets were originally sorted by Birth Year and then Weight; therefore, all the brackets were completely screwed up. The brackets are suppose to be sorted by Birth Group....HUGE DIFFERENCE. For example, we did not have 1999/2000 brackets but 1999 and 2000 brackets. What's the problem w/ that? Well, the weight classes had a much larger weight % spread. Almost all the weight classes were 5% or higher. We had many brackets at 9% and 10%. Once we corrected the issue, the average spread was well under 5% (I believe closer to 2%). I have used the software multiple times and was there when we spotted the problem; therefore, I got stuck re-bracketing until 3 AM the night before an all day of wrestling.

Also, the previous year, I sent all the brackets out to EVERY coach in the state in advance to eliminate these type of issues. Also, it allows the conspiracy theorists (we seem to have a bunch) to examine the brackets and question anything that looked suspicious. I recommended this to this year's host Region, but they decided not to.

[raidercoach 51]

I find this funny because I have an excel spreadsheet that shows how messed up the bracketing was just from the 80-90 lbs for the 11-12 year olds from 2 years ago when your club ran the tourney. I didn’t even bother to look at some of the other age groups as we had an older youth team two years ago. But I’m sure I could go back and look if you really want to get into that. The way I see it is the past is the past and there is no sense in dwelling there. Only moving forward and trying not to let the same mistakes happen again.

Yes...I want you to go back and look into it. Don't be a coward and come on here and accuse someone of cheating with NO evidence other than saying "how messed up the bracketing was..." and then say the past is the past. If you have convincing evidence, you can PM me and I will personally hand deliver our state trophy to whoever got second place that year. I know it didn't happen because I WAS THERE. The only thing we did was attempt to separate kids from the same region from the same side of the bracket, which is what has always been done in the past and is what is done at every level including middle school and high school.

[MLee 68]

Thunderstruck, you show me that spreadsheet and I guarantee there is an explanation you are not considering. The brackets have to be be "messed" with to a degree. There cannot be more than 2 kids per program in one bracket; therefore, there is a shuffling process of moving kids up and down. Either the heaviest or lightest gets moved up or down. As you can imagine, this creates a ripple effect.

[BadMadDad 16]

You compete by getting more kids out!

We don't have room or the extra mats. So, we just can't take in anymore kids than what we presently have.

[raidercoach 51]

We don't have room or the extra mats. So, we just can't take in anymore kids than what we presently have.

Get another room and have a fund raiser to buy another mat...thats what we had to do.