No team scores for Youth State Tournament

[grappler-of-old 44]

ridemout: This occurs in many grade school age programs. I know in knothole baseball the first 2 years (maybe more) there is no official score kept and no winner or loser.

I'm not sure how the gradeschool football, or basketball works, but I seem to remember when GOO Jr. played gradeschool basketball they didn't keep score the first year or so. The coaches know who scored or won the game but no one else officially.

[Ranger123 43]

Ok, so all I do is answer the questions posed and ask a couple of equally legitamite questions and mlee and raidercoach become 3rd graders? I was there to vote and you know my opinion on the matter. If you want to discuss it further come talk to me.

By the way, I'm fine discussing the high school team issue. I won't discuss it on this site as eligibility is part of the discussion and we are supposed to avoid that here. But I have my opinion and have not hid my feelings.

rideemout - last time I checked there is generally no scoreboard for team scores in wrestling. And in this case no one except those running the event typically have any clue what the team scores are. No losers here. Plenty of gold medals and even more important life lessons and true friendships have proven otherwise.

[raidercoach 51]

Ok, so all I do is answer the questions posed and ask a couple of equally legitamite questions and mlee and raidercoach become 3rd graders? I was there to vote and you know my opinion on the matter. If you want to discuss it further come talk to me.

By the way, I'm fine discussing the high school team issue. I won't discuss it on this site as eligibility is part of the discussion and we are supposed to avoid that here. But I have my opinion and have not hid my feelings.

rideemout - last time I checked there is generally no scoreboard for team scores in wrestling. And in this case no one except those running the event typically have any clue what the team scores are. No losers here. Plenty of gold medals and even more important life lessons and true friendships have proven otherwise.

Come on Ranger, don't resort to name calling. You asked a loaded question implying that we don't charge members who practice with the middle school. Stop dancing around what you want to say and just come out and call us cheaters. Coach Lee and I just inserted a little humor at your expense.

I find it pretty transparent that while you claim the decision was made to eliminate team scores because of complexity and time, that you immediately transitioned into questioning how the Raiders charge members of the team and how it rubs you the wrong way that some of our kids show up at state after wrestling in middle school all year. You even got a little boastful and challenged us to a dual. You clearly take issue with some things about the Raiders program...its obvious. Just admit your hate, you will feel much better.

[MLee 68]

Just trying to lighten the mood, Ranger.

By the way, the topic of getting rid of team scores was never even brought up before that meeting. It was brought up as a suggestion, then voted on by mostly Middle School coaches (from what I was told, I was on vacation) and w/in minutes it was changed. I believe it is an important issue that deserves more thought and discussion.

[grappler-of-old 44]

I'll admit my hate. I hate both programs.

Wow I feel much better now.

[rideemout 16]

there is still a score and a scoreboard on paper maybe not for everyone to see but it is there. And why must everyone win? losing not only shows where you ned improvement but also gives motivation.

[stanmms 4]

Stan Martin here. I've been out of Youth for a few years but had a great deal to do with getting our State Association started. I'm hearing in this forum a lot of misconceptions we fought thru in the formation of the association. Maybe, I can help clear them up.

- Weight classes, there are true weight classes at all youth events. They are grouped from the lowest weight to the highest, 8 kids at a time unless there is a greater than 10% difference from the lowest weight. We tried having set weight classes in the 1st couple state tourneys, USA Wrestling weights. Over 50% of the brackets had less than 4 kids making the tournament have over 120 brackets. The 10% rule dropped the brackets to 87 with 79 full brackets. So, do you want to be the state champ of a 4 man or 8 man bracket? Why do you care if it is a published bracket or a floating one? Are we here to wrestle or win a PRE-DETERMINED weight class.

- Team Scores. Have we turned into soccer moms or a Socialist country. Funny that every team that has hosted the Youth State Tourney also had the most kids ever on their team that year. It couldn't be they were trying to win, nah too obvious. The kids do get a charge out of winning team titles. If not, why are some proposing dual tournaments. Isn't scorekeeping going to take place?

-Bylaws. Last time I checked there was a Bylaw prohibiting rule changes from taking place in the same year. This means even if the team score rule is voted down it cannot take place until the following season. I mean, unless there was an Obamaesque executive order abolishing that bylaw.

-This is a developmental league. That means getting as many kids involved as possible. NKY teams have done an exceptional job of this. Opinion....competition has definitely contributed to 4 of the largest teams in the state all being from the same region. Look what's it done. 8 Middle School finalist from Raider Youth this year and without counting a great deal more from NKY also.

-Numbers. Every sport is a numbers game. The more bodies, the more competition, the better the athletes become. This is undeniable. The smaller teams need to be asking the larger teams how to make it happen. It's easy to grow your program if you are willing to put in the time and do basic recruiting at peewee football, baseball, soccer and mainly in your school.

Success breeds success. When our kids started wearing State Championship shirts around school the other kids came out of the woodwork to join. Having a successful program is the best recruiting tool. ASK JEFF JORDAN.

Last. How about some team scoring suggestions. We floated the idea of small school and big school scores, set number of scorers or leave it alone altogether. I don't believe that getting rid of keeping scores is the right direction.

[grappler-of-old 44]

For me wrestling was intersting for me because of the individuality of it. No one could be blamed for my loss but me. And no one but me could get the credit for the win. I had played many "Team" sports in my youth but wrestling is what stuck becuase of me being able to win without anyone else getting the credit or passing the blame of to someone else.

I've said this several times. Wrestling is an individual sport or at best a group sport. It is NOT a team sport even though many are trying to make it one. I would much rather win a state title myself than get a team title. I never did either but I got more out of my 4th place finishes than the 2nd place finish the team accomplished when I wrestled.

This is what wrestling is about. Showing an individual that through hard work you can accomplish things and be proud of what you accomplished. Being part of a team does not give you that personal pride in yourself. Now don't get me wrong I know that being part of a team is important, and kids will get that with every other sport they play. I believe that wrestling has made me a better person because of my belief in myself and what I can accomplish alone. But I understand with some help I can even do greater things, but can always fall back on getting it done myself, and I never blame others for my failures. These are the things we teach our kids with wrestling let baseball, basketball, and football give them the team skills, but allow wrestling to give them their individual pride in accomplishing something on their own.

[zaniac 11]

Where are the minutes from the meeting where this was voted on?

[stanmms 4]

Couldn't agree more with the individual part on a personal level. But, the kids I've coached in Youth and then Middle tell me they like Middle School Wrestling better because they feel like they are part of a team. The only time youth kids get this is at Regions and State. Take away team scoring and we take away the "Team" aspect which is important also.

[plantmanky1 58]

per the email sent out about the youth meeting in May....

The following are the notes from the Youth Coaches Spring Meeting at Campbell County Middle School on Sunday May 20^th.

· We looked at and discussed the financial report from the state tournament. I have attached a copy of it for you. Next year’s costs from the Horse Park has not been determined. We hope to continue gain a financial advantage as we follow the KHSAA Tournament.

· Discussed the hosting of the state tournament and it was decided that the Northern Kentucky Region would be the host region. Campbell County has volunteered to be the lead team for the region.

· We discussed the weigh in issue for the state tournament. Some coaches have expressed a concern with actual weight at the tournament. It was decided that we would continue with what we are currently doing with satellite weigh ins but we will use a state form that must be signed by a wrestling official no more than 10 days prior to the state tournament.

· Discussed team score and it was decided that we would not keep a team score this next year.

· Discussed using an awards vendor to simplify the reordering of awards each year. We decided that we would use Crown Trophy for the next 5 years.

· We discussed the responsibility of coaches to ensure we are checking our wrestlers for skin and nails before competitions.

If you are hosting a youth tournament this summer or next season please send me the dates and I will get them distributed.

[Ranger123 43]

Are you serious raider? I did actually smile at Matt's comment, but I believe your responses pretty well prove this change hurts you and your ego more than anyone else. Since you obviously have a greater understanding of my psychological shortcomings, please explain my deep hatred for the Raiders. It can't be the high school as I have taken a ton of heat over the years for having too many Ryle parent friends. And at the middle school level I get along with Coach Ruschell and we have been more than competitive with them in my time at the middle school. So it has to be my obsession with youth wrestling. Glad I could finally make it to a meeting this spring. Oh, and the dual meet. Just stated facts to respond to your accusation that everyone is either afraid or envious of the Raider program. Pretty happy with our 4 MS Champs who live and have grown up in our school system.

And for the record, I generally don't have an issue with Ryle middle school kids wrestling with your team. I don't like to see kids who have moved on to other programs (with youth teams) compete with you.

[raidercoach 51]

Are you serious raider? I did actually smile at Matt's comment, but I believe your responses pretty well prove this change hurts you and your ego more than anyone else. Since you obviously have a greater understanding of my psychological shortcomings, please explain my deep hatred for the Raiders. It can't be the high school as I have taken a ton of heat over the years for having too many Ryle parent friends. And at the middle school level I get along with Coach Ruschell and we have been more than competitive with them in my time at the middle school. So it has to be my obsession with youth wrestling. Glad I could finally make it to a meeting this spring. Oh, and the dual meet. Just stated facts to respond to your accusation that everyone is either afraid or envious of the Raider program. Pretty happy with our 4 MS Champs who live and have grown up in our school system.

And for the record, I generally don't have an issue with Ryle middle school kids wrestling with your team. I don't like to see kids who have moved on to other programs (with youth teams) compete with you.

Ranger,

I was just kidding about your hatred for the Raiders. I was trying to add some humor into this heated debate. I apologize if I came off too harsh or offended you. I assure you my ego is not affected by a youth wrestling team's performance. I am just trying to stir the pot regarding something that I feel very passionately about. I am surprised that you and GOO who are more affiliated with middle and high school at this point are equally as passionate against team scores at youth. I expected to be debating with other people to be quite frank with you, but they aren't showing up on here.

No offense, but I don't believe anyone, including yourself, has presented a compelling argument to remove the team scores on this board. All I've heard is the scoring is too complicated (not true) and takes to long (not true). The scoring not being fair to smaller teams is valid. I would support a large school and small school. It would be much better than nothing at all.

I don't know what kids you are referring to, other than the kids that have moved to WV. Those kids started with Raiders and wanted to finish with Raiders. As a CC coach, you should just be grateful that Raiders kids are feeding into 2 middle schools now and not one! (Again...just playing with you)

[Ranger123 43]

^{Got it. I am actually not all that passionate about this issue. I have my opinion and expressed it both at the meeting and here. Not a big fan of small school big school. But as I have said let's create age/weight brackets and score away.}

[MLee 68]

One other tidbit of information regarding the competitiveness among the teams. At the end of the tournament last year, there were around 10 Head Coaches hovering around the team scores waiting to see what the results were. I'm aware not every coach was there, but these were coaches from mostly the "top scoring/bigger" teams. They're all great coaches who are very passionate about the sport. Each of them were eager to get the final results. If the team scores don't mean anything, why the interest from arguably the most influencial people in KY Youth wrestling? Why not just pack up and get out of there as quickly as you can?

My point is, whether they admit it or not, all coaches want to see how their team stacks against others...as they should. And as mentioned before, there has to be a way to evaluate your progress as individuals (tournaments), coaches (#'s, retainment, team results), and our state (#'s, performance vs out of state). Someone made the comment, "w/out team scoring, it is just another tournament." I agree. And as a coach, I need to consider what is best for my team, partake in "just another KY tournament" or go elsewhere. Our program misses out on the best tournament in Cincinnati (Citywide) every year because of Regional and State conflicts. I'd hate to disrupt tradition, but that doesn't seem to be a concern of our Youth Association.

[BadMadDad 16]

I’m sure our club would be willing to listen to a big school/small school set up as this was something we have wanted to do in the past. I know one of the main issues about this set up was that clubs may consider the possibility of having kids sit out of state just to achieve the small school/club championship status. I think we could all agree that this is bad for the sport, if we have teams that are attempting to get kids to sit out, just to help the chances of winning a small school title. Right? So, let’s consider this scenario: we take the number of teams competing at state and competitors, find an average and call that the cut-off for large school/small school. I think by setting it up this way it will help to prevent programs from turning kids away, because until the final number of teams and participants is averaged out no one will have an idea as to what the cut off number is going to be. If we set a pre-determined number of 30 kids as the cut-off, then the teams at 30-40 kids have a selfish reason to encourage an X number of kids to sit out.

I’m not sure how I feel about one set of weight classes for all the kids to compete by. As I’ve said before, there is a massive strength difference between an 80lb 11-12 year old when compared to a 80lb 7-8 year old kid. We need to have the big boys as excited about wrestling as our little 6 year old 40lb’ers. I think that since so many people have raised the issue in the past about the 8 man brackets, why not set them at 14-15 kids, leaving 1-2 spots open for any last minute changes that need to be made, to take them to 16 man brackets. I think if we were to consider that scenario, it could help to make the bracketing a little easier as well. We start at the lowest weight and take the first 14-15 kids, based on the 10% rule as well, bracket them together, regardless of region and facing teammates. Sure, attempts could be made within the brackets to separate kids in the first and second rounds if possible, but by doing it this way, I don’t see how anyone could accuse one club/region host of “fixing the brackets” to any sort of advantage for their club.

One point that the Raiders coaches have touched on and based upon the arguments made, I have to agree with, is that bringing home a team trophy is a great recruiting tool. As far as I’m concerned, that is what youth is, a chance to get these kids started young and to get them excited about this great sport. I know that all involved in this topic have a true love for the sport and the kids they coach. I’m not completely bull-headed, a strong good argument can change my opinion. I just want what is best for this great sport and I’m always willing to listen to other ideas.

[stanmms 4]

Large school/small school.

This determination should be based on # of kids turned in to USA wrestling by a certain date. This would deter teams from not taking a full roster just to avoid being placed in the large school division.

[PinAndWin 64]

^{Got it. I am actually not all that passionate about this issue. I have my opinion and expressed it both at the meeting and here. Not a big fan of small school big school. But as I have said let's create age/weight brackets and score away.}

Makes the most sense. Pretty sure ohio uses age/weight brackets. You end up with one ind. true champion in each age/weight and a true team champ and everyones happy. The old way made sense early on when KY was trying to grow the sport. Time to change.

[MLee 68]

I love the idea of big school/small school. To me, this is a no-brainer.

16 man brackets is a thought, but am I the only one that likes seeing more champions? It just seems to me the more kids w/ medals, the more chance we hook them (and their parents) into coming back. I know there are people that want the brackets to be more competitive, which I understand. However, if our focus is on increasing #'s and retaining kids, then more is better.

I don't think people realize how bad the brackets would be if we didn't make an effort to separate kids from the same school. They would be terrible. I recall 3 or 4 brackets last year that would have been 8 kids from one team. I also recall a 4 man bracket of S Oldham kids. Why would we want parents to drive to a tournament, in some cases spend the night, spend all the money, to have them wrestle the same kids in their room? Also, separating the Regions are an easy thing to do that (in my mind) should be done, for the same reason. In parts of KY they are wrestling the same kids every weekend. I'm sure they appreciate not doing that at state. So other than appeasing some people's paranoia, I don't see a benefit to pressing a sort button and printing w/out making sure the brackets make sense.

The process of sorting is simple. I will gladly outline the guidlines I used to the Association at the next meeting. We should probably agree on these guidelines and write them in the bylaws. I also think it is imperative we have the brackets completed and sent out to EVERY coach in the state a couple days prior. This gives the coaches the chance to review their roster to ensure it is accurate. Last year's SKY situation would have been avoided if this was done.

I also don't agree w/ only allowing one point scorer from each team per bracket. I know people will be outraged by this, but think about it logically. We are telling kids who worked their butts off all year that their 3rd place means nothing because they were put in a bracket w/ a teammate who won it or took 2nd. Once again, if you're only concerned with the results and not the lessons we're trying to teach, then this won't make any sense to you. But we teach our kids to fight for team points, even when they had a loss. Team Championships can be won in the consolation rounds and we're trying to prepare our guys at a young age to wrestle back hard. I noticed many brackets where there were two placewinners from the same school. In my opinion, give them both their points.

[MLee 68]

Makes the most sense. Pretty sure ohio uses age/weight brackets. You end up with one ind. true champion in each age/weight and a true team champ and everyones happy. The old way made sense early on when KY was trying to grow the sport. Time to change.

Pin, I agree we'll ultimately need to change, but we're nowhere near there yet. Cincinnati has more kids attend their larger city tournaments than we do at our State tournament.

[Chris Duke 284]

I don't think people realize how bad the brackets would be if we didn't make an effort to separate kids from the same school. They would be terrible. I recall 3 or 4 brackets last year that would have been 8 kids from one team. I also recall a 4 man bracket of S Oldham kids. Why would we want parents to drive to a tournament, in some cases spend the night, spend all the money, to have them wrestle the same kids in their room? Also, separating the Regions are an easy thing to do that (in my mind) should be done, for the same reason. In parts of KY they are wrestling the same kids every weekend. I'm sure they appreciate not doing that at state. So other than appeasing some people's paranoia, I don't see a benefit to pressing a sort button and printing w/out making sure the brackets make sense.

[Chris Duke 284]

I'm still trying to figure this site out. Mlee if we are trying to keep kids from wrestling the same region then my boys must be unlucky. In the 5 matches from state last year they wrestled 3 kids from our region and of the 3 two of the boys where from our club.

[MLee 68]

I'm still trying to figure this site out. Mlee if we are trying to keep kids from wrestling the same region then my boys must be unlucky. In the 5 matches from state last year they wrestled 3 kids from our region and of the 3 two of the boys where from our club.

Chris,

I did say "make an effort." Do you realize last year we had an absolute cluster of a situation w/ the brackets? As mentioned before, I was not in charge of the brackets. I only offered to fix them. I had one night to go through well over 100 brackets. Next time, I'll gladly volunteer you.

Also, when did they wrestle each other? If they faced each other in the finals or consolations, that is very common. Many kids have to deal with that.

[Chris Duke 284]

Second round and finals. It doesn't bother me that we have to wrestle our club. I like the idea of 14 in a bracket where they land they land, its all based on weight. Try to keep clubs on the different side of the brackets that's fine. If you do it this way no one can complain.

[MLee 68]

Second round and finals. It doesn't bother me that we have to wrestle our club. I like the idea of 14 in a bracket where they land they land, its all based on weight. Try to keep clubs on the different side of the brackets that's fine. If you do it this way no one can complain.

People will always complain.