State Duals

[underhooks123 0]

What needs to happen to have it sponsored by KHSAA?

[Ranger123 43]

not get snowed out.    :-D

[Josh_Claywell 52]

That'd be a good start, right Ranger?

[moosenuckle 0]

state duals is myth its not real. lol

[Ranger123 43]

In all seriousness, I don't think the KHSAA wants to sponsor a second state championship for wrestling.  In my opinion, this is where you could do a small school big school split and battle it out; not at the individual tournament.

[Zeus 117]

In all seriousness, I don't think the KHSAA wants to sponsor a second state championship for wrestling.  In my opinion, this is where you could do a small school big school split and battle it out; not at the individual tournament.

I think this is the best option.  An even better option, just a tweak of Ranger's idea is to cut cut the state duals down to eight teams per class.  That would invite more small schools to the tournament and increase participation for them.  Also you could somehow work out where small schools could choose to bump up and compete in the large school class if they wanted to.  If there were only eight teams per class then it could still be held in one gym and be finished in one day like it is currently.  Any thoughts?

[dscicle 6]

i think splitting State Duals is the dumbest idea i've ever heard. For one, we don't have the numbers to split. Second, KY is the only State I know of that can claim they crown a TRUE TEAM STATE CHAMPION with our State Duals. I've been around KY wrestling for 13 years now, the past 2 as an official. I've found the teams that want to have the split are the teams that have never really been in the running for the title. I guarantee (and i can because i know the majority of the coaches) Union, LaRue, and Wayne (all 3 of whom have been in the State Duals Finals and have been in contention multiple times) do not want it split. all 3 are small schools in the state. Keep state duals as is. If you truly want a State Dual title as a smaller school, OUT WORK THE COMPETITION like those 3 do.

[wrestlesmart 15]

Splitting at the Duals is not the dumbest idea that I have heard, but it goes back to the same premise that there are not enough teams for that to work effectively.  I think Ranger's idea holds some validity just because it would probably be alot simpler to accomplish without watering down the individual state finals. 

[Ranger123 43]

i think splitting State Duals is the dumbest idea i've ever heard. For one, we don't have the numbers to split. Second, KY is the only State I know of that can claim they crown a TRUE TEAM STATE CHAMPION with our State Duals. I've been around KY wrestling for 13 years now, the past 2 as an official. I've found the teams that want to have the split are the teams that have never really been in the running for the title. I guarantee (and i can because i know the majority of the coaches) Union, LaRue, and Wayne (all 3 of whom have been in the State Duals Finals and have been in contention multiple times) do not want it split. all 3 are small schools in the state. Keep state duals as is. If you truly want a State Dual title as a smaller school, OUT WORK THE COMPETITION like those 3 do.

I am in no way a proponent of splitting the state.  As a former coach of one of the smallest schools in the state I was very much against the idea.  BUT, if it were to happen it makes much more sense to do it at state duals than at the individual tournament.

[underhooks123 0]

If they made a A/AA state duals and AAA state duals I think the state can make a lot of $$$. Gives the smaller teams something to shoot for while competing in the individual regions with the much larger AAA schools. I will use region 1 as an example... Say Fort Campbell is the A/AA region champ and UHA is the runner up. The UHA as the runner up moves on to face another runner up in a wildcard to move onto state. The top 4 of North, West, Middle and East section are seeded 1-4 and . Top 2 seeds receive a bye and teams seeded 3 and 4 face the "wildcard" winners.  Have your region duals during the week with round 1 and 2 on tuesday and championship on thursday, wild card match on Saturday and state duals the first weekend of Feb.

[BigWrestleFan 0]

I think it would make ALL of the competitions more legitimate if they would ONLY allow public schools to compete for the state title. It is WAY to often that a private school, and I refer to ALL of them not just one or two, wins the competitions with participants that would never be allowed to compete for a public school because the kid is not from that county or school district. If the competition is to be fair, play by the same rules.

Though this difference in rules is less evident in wrestling due to the one on one nature of the sport, it is hugely evident in other sports where perhaps 100 kids from one team may face a team of perhaps 30. I think if everyone were playing from the same rule book in ALL rules, this debate would be less likely to happen.  :evil:

[oldwrestler81 6]

This is getting silly.  We are trying to narrow the field "split big school/small school" "exclude the private schools" as a justification to make it easier to win championships.  In my opinion the competition level in Kentucky is already pretty low. If we make it any easier, why not just give a medal to everybody and we can all be state champs

[grappler-of-old 44]

Who cares if they all live in the same county or city.  The public, private debate is totally ridiculous.  Play whoever is in front of you rather it is on a field or a mat. 

Oh and by the way I have never went to a private school nor any of my relatives.

[CoachM 1]

For some of the bigger private schools, when it comes to other team sports (football, soccer, ect.) They do have a larger pool of boys to pull from, compared to a similar sized public school that would only have half the amount of kids eligible to play. 

But 100 kids verse a team of 30 can't be blamed on the private school.  Beechwood (Ft. Mitchell, KY) has more kids on their football team than a lot of the other NKY schools and they only have 300 or so kids in the entire school.  It's based on the tradition of the program, the coaching staff, et. al.  Year after year they would beat the rival private school that had 4x the amount of boys to pull from.

When I wrestled, I got beat by more public school kids than I did private school kids my senior year. 

Quit complaining about their dominance.  It's been said a million times before on these boards, but when you're out on that mat it's 1 v. 1, and the reason you got beat wasn't because of the size of the teams, but because he was better than you. 

[sigep567 3]

Who are the teams going to State Duals?

[Josh_Claywell 52]

I think it would make ALL of the competitions more legitimate if they would ONLY allow public schools to compete for the state title. It is WAY to often that a private school, and I refer to ALL of them not just one or two, wins the competitions with participants that would never be allowed to compete for a public school because the kid is not from that county or school district. If the competition is to be fair, play by the same rules.

Though this difference in rules is less evident in wrestling due to the one on one nature of the sport, it is hugely evident in other sports where perhaps 100 kids from one team may face a team of perhaps 30. I think if everyone were playing from the same rule book in ALL rules, this debate would be less likely to happen.

So now we've veered off into a public-private debate? Fantastic.

[Nathaniel Bryan 6]

1) A public-private split or a big-small class split won't be happening any time soon. Forget it. The numbers don't support it. You want the best of 40-ish teams (most of whom do not fill out all 14 spots) to be considered a STATE champion? Please. Plus, if you think EVERY public/independent school district has the EXACT SAME enrollment criteria, you haven't done your homework. They don't. Josh and I have seen dozens of kids in various sports who lived in one district and played in another.

2) As far as gaining traction from the KHSAA:

A: All qualifying must become uniform. Meaning all regionals must be held the same week in the same style. Check every other sport and you'll see this to be the same. So it may mean one weekend every school in the region gets together at one school and wrestles and has Duals. Weekday matches between region rivals would NOT count (in basketball, baseball, softball, soccer, volleyball, football, regular-season wins over teams do NOT matter in postseason tournaments). Now you could make sure every team has at least one dual with every other team in the region prior to region duals and use those results for seeding (no different than what the other team sports do on the district level).

B: That being said, NO sport in Kentucky uses a round-robin approach to decide district/region/state champs. None. Softball does have double elimination at State. All-A softball (not a KHSAA official title) is experimenting with round-robin pool before single-elimination 8-team tournament. What's this mean? Your region duals qualifying become single or double-elimination and the last team -- meaning one, no region runner-ups qualify for a KHSAA state tournament in any "team" sport -- left standing heads to State Duals.

C: An eight-team double-elimination State Duals could be held on a Saturday at any number of neutral-site arenas (NKU, Pikeville Arena, Corbin, Memorial, Diddle, EKU, Murray State, Morehead State, Bellarmine (site of state volleyball), Campbellsville (college wrestling program), Lindsey Wilson (college wrestling program), Cumberlands (college wrestling program)). KHSAA isn't too keen on having team state titles handed out at high schools, but at the same time, it's not too keen on outrageous rental fees (which rules at Yum for any state tournament outside boys' hoops any time soon).

D: Most likely, the last four weekends of the season would change to this: Region Duals, Region Individuals, State Duals, State Individual. The problem is someone getting hurt at State Duals would/could jeopardize their run at a State Individual title. And it's unlikely that a KHSAA state title (i.e. Duals) would be awarded midway through a season. It would have to be at the end. Plus, how do coaches factor in the every growing Elementary and Middle School state tournaments? The KHSAA doesn't care because that's not their jurisdiction. And they're NOT going to change the schedule/extend the season to fit them in. This means the elementary/Middle state tournaments (and qualifying) could find themselves changing dates).

Here's the problem folks: A lot of people say "Well, State Duals should be KHSAA sanctioned." And that's nifty, but not many people have sat down, thought it through and come up with a calendar and criteria.

Tennis is the same way. The tennis folks are trying to have Duals (like the NCAA does with its team championships) but haven't devised a way to make it work out in terms of logistics. Other states do both (individual, team) in both sports (wrestling, tennis). And none of them are ideal (and most states that do it have far more teams than Kentucky does).

It seems all of this would be a big hassle/headache just to be KHSAA recognized. I'm not being sexist, but it's the same reason cheerleading is not likely to be a sport in Kentucky, yet bowling and archery are well on their way. Cheerleading doesn't want to go through the protocol (roster limits, dead period, transfer rules) in order to be a sport. Wrestling doesn't want to have to make drastic changes to meet the KHSAA's wants.