We are failing youth wrestling programs!

[EMS Coach Cardwell 17]

I want to let everyone know that we our robbing our kids by using MS and HS kids as referees for post season tournaments. If teams want to use them for little meets during the year thats fine, but for Youth Regions and State? That's ridiculous! I don't like to rave and rant but seriously, are we going to do this to these kids? If we as parents and coaches don't care any more than this then we will see Ky wrestling remain as it has been or get worse. I'm not trashing these MS and HS kids, they are just doing what they are told by their coaches, but they are not referees. I know for a fact the past 2 years at Johnson Central and at Fern Creek, kids were used to ref the Youth State Tournament. These kids are too easily influenced and intimidated by opposing coaches. I know its a bear to find enough help to run a youth tournament, and I know we have used MS and HS kids in the past for youth meets, but for post season we need to make a change. Coach Kyle from Fern Creek, if you are reading this thread, please take into consideration what I am saying and make a change for the State Tournament. If there any other parents and coaches out there that feel like me, please post on this thread and let you voice be heard. If there are any certified refs that want to give back to wrestling by donating your time at the Youth State Tournament please post on this thread. Youth programs are popping up right and left here in Ky, lets not shoot ourselves in the foot by doing our kids this injustice.

[stanmms 4]

D. W. ,

"If we as parents and coaches don't care any more than this then we will see Ky wrestling remain as it has been or get worse. "

1.  I know, for a fact, the board has sent out numerous requests to refs for the Youth State Tournament and is having great difficulty finding enough.  Not a lack of "caring" but a lack of refs.

2. I also know, for a fact, Fern Creek used "Certified Refs" last year. 

3.  Raider youth wrestling has been attending large youth tournaments every weekend of wrestling season for over ten years.  I have personally coached thousands of matches and the % of matches adversely affected by a bad call using High School Refs is minimal at best.  Have you been to a middle school match lately?  I've had refs ask how many counts it takes to award back points.  Control, what's that?  Out of bounds, Oh that's why there are lines on the mat.  I firmly believe  " most" high school wrestlers understand the rules better than the majority of refs I've seen in Middle School this year.

4. Coach Kyle has done a great job taking over this year.  Early indications are the State Tournament will have record numbers of kids. 

For all those busting their buts for the kids of Ky, keep up the good work.

[kdsmith27 14]

D. W. ,

"If we as parents and coaches don't care any more than this then we will see Ky wrestling remain as it has been or get worse. "

1.  I know, for a fact, the board has sent out numerous requests to refs for the Youth State Tournament and is having great difficulty finding enough.  Not a lack of "caring" but a lack of refs.

2. I also know, for a fact, Fern Creek used "Certified Refs" last year. 

3.  Raider youth wrestling has been attending large youth tournaments every weekend of wrestling season for over ten years.  I have personally coached thousands of matches and the % of matches adversely affected by a bad call using High School Refs is minimal at best.  Have you been to a middle school match lately?  I've had refs ask how many counts it takes to award back points.  Control, what's that?  Out of bounds, Oh that's why there are lines on the mat.  I firmly believe  " most" high school wrestlers understand the rules better than the majority of refs I've seen in Middle School this year.

4. Coach Kyle has done a great job taking over this year.  Early indications are the State Tournament will have record numbers of kids. 

For all those busting their buts for the kids of Ky, keep up the good work.

Stan, i agree 100%. There is absolutely no problem with HS wrestlers as officials. Not all kids will move on to the next level of wrestling but want to stay involved. This is our next generation of year round officials. In my opinion  every wrestler should officiate. Like anything else, If you have to teach it or perform it, you must learn it better than the kids you referee. Any experienced wrestler can referee, and even officials make mistakes.

[tigercoach1 1]

DW,

I have to agree with Stan as well.  This is coach Watson from Fern Creek and I booked 16 certified referees for the youth state tournament last year because we felt very strongly that these kids deserved the same officiating the MS and HS kids receive.  There was not a single referee out there that was not certified.  This has been discussed at youth meetings and I know Stan and Kyle both feel strongly that these events should be officiated by certified referees.  No worries.  Stan and Kyle have both worked very hard for youth wrestling and their work is keeping youth wrestling going in the right direction for Kentucky.  I just hope more and more coaches get involved going forward.   

[EMS Coach Cardwell 17]

I wasn't trying to insinuate that we are doing anything malicious to hurt our kids, and I apologize for mis-speaking about certified refs at Fern Creek last year. And in no way was I questioning Kyle's compitence in running the State Tournament.  If you guys would have been at the youth regional tournament today at Harrison Co., you would have been appauled at the level of officiating and the ignored outburst by parents and coaches. We had parent/coaches running out on the mat to stop action or argue with the officials. We had a kid wrestling and an opposing parent/coach run out on the mat and grab him off their kid. We had a parent/coach run out on the mat and told his kid to break my kid's fingers. Nothing was done because the refs "kids" was intimidated by the parent/coaches. This is unacceptable on any level. Today could have ended in a full out brawl and there would have been alot of people involved and kids possibly hurt. I can't help but to voice my concern when we saw such a gross display of conduct at this tournament. I have parents coming to me asking if it is even safe for their kids to wrestle at State. This was just a sad sad day for anyone who loves this sport as much as most of us do. 

[myGSP 4]

http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=6913

[heavy83 15]

Sorry to hear that a tourn. was like that , but goes to show that just because you have a team it doesn't mean you can run a tourn. W hen we hold a tourn we use high school kids and have a cert. ref go around and watch plus control the coaches/parents. Sounds like they need to learn more before holding anymore.

[CoachTuck 2]

There were actually 2 certified refs there do that, so maybe you should learn more before you post.

[Irish Wrestler 10]

I think it was a well run tournament.  You all did a great job preparing!

[ukmike22000 0]

TIFWIW........Garth Yenter, now a high school sophmore at Campbell County (and wrestling stud), refereed Youth Regionals at Gray Middle School two years ago (so he was an 8th grader at the time) and was, by far, the absolute best referee I've ever seen, including said "certified" referees.  I'll concede the point that not all kids are cut out for it and are only doing what their coaches are telling them, but some kids do get it, and are much more able to move around the mat than alot of the older certified guys who have become too heavy to move with the action.

In a ten mat tournament, I'll take ten of this kid over the certified refs any day of the week. 

[Ranger123 43]

TIFWIW........Garth Yenter, now a high school sophmore at Campbell County (and wrestling stud), refereed Youth Regionals at Gray Middle School two years ago (so he was an 8th grader at the time) and was, by far, the absolute best referee I've ever seen, including said "certified" referees.  I'll concede the point that not all kids are cut out for it and are only doing what their coaches are telling them, but some kids do get it, and are much more able to move around the mat than alot of the older certified guys who have become too heavy to move with the action.

In a ten mat tournament, I'll take ten of this kid over the certified refs any day of the week.

Good point.  There are a number of HS kids that would do a much better job than most certified referees.  So we can't jump to conclusions just because of the age of the person.  But those running the event do need to keep in mind that some coaches will inappropriately try to take advantage of the kid officiating.  If that happens then I'm prepared to show those coaches the door.

FYI, I will be helping out at the youth state tournament this year and should we have a replay of any of the issues I've heard about this weekend, parents can rest assured they will not be watching the event from inside the arena.  There should be zero tolerance for parents coming onto the mat.  Absolute zero.

[colonel2 0]

I am not sure where D.W. is from or what he was watching at the tournament but he is way off in his analysis of Sunday's events.  First of all there were 2 certified h.s. referees there and I know for a fact that they stepped in on a couple of situations upon request of the referee in charge just as they were told to do if there were problems.  The coaches were asked to be patient and as courteous as possible to these kids.  Unfortunately that doesnt happen.  Parents are the worst!!!  They were told to stay in the bleachers and of course that didnt happen.  There is enough pressure on these kids who referee without an idiot parent who doesnt know the rules or can't keep their you know what in the bleachers to allow these kids to do their job or allow their kids to wrestle. My kid wrestled a match and was continuously punched (closed fist) in the face as he was trying to pin him.  He went on and finished the match and didnt complain about it while kicking this kid's butt.  Maybe if a kid cant handle the stress and toughness of this sport they should try chess or checkers.  I have dealt with at least one bad ref everywhere i have coached this year.  And I did "deal" with it.  Maybe if the parents knew how to act these things would not happen.  But it is impossible to run a tourney, keep officials in line, make sure scores are kept correctly and continuously keep parents in the bleacher.  Great job Harrison on running a very difficult tournament.  As for D.W., maybe you should attend a few more tournaments to see what these coaches and refs have to deal with.  Or better yet, volunteer to help run one!!!

[heavy83 15]

I want to apologize for my earlier post. I should have not jump to the concusion that it was ran that bad. I agree that most of the time it is the parents fault. High school kids reffing do just fine they are as good as alot of cert. refs that get paid. Again to Harrison people  I'm sorry for blurting out before I heard more.

[EMS Coach Cardwell 17]

colonel2, I'm not sure who you are or where your from but I can tell you if you didn't see what was going on Sunday, you might need an eye exam. I would also venture to guess I have been to more tournaments in Kentucky and Nationally then you have ever dreamed of. I would also venture to guess I have probably put on more tournaments then you could ever imagine. If you want to get all pissy because I want to protect kids from idiot parents and coaches, then it is quite possible you may be one of the idiots that I am speaking of. Bottom line, let a parent or coach come out on the mat at the Youth State Tournament and see what happens. If nobody wants to police it, I will for my kids.

[Irish Wrestler 10]

Okay DW...I have sat and read all the comments about this tournament.  I happened to be there all day.  It was a large tournament and it was run very well.  They had everything organized and were ready to go.  They did run a little late but how were they to know that several kids would be scratched a few minutes before the start time.  I have to say that the people at Harrison Co. have put on numerous tournaments since 1969 and they do a great job.  I myself didn't see any parent run onto the mat.  The only thing I did hear about was the coaches giving the officials a hard time.  I know one official had to get the head official to come to the mat because of the unruly behavior of the coach.  Now, in respect to the parents.  Some parents are on the mat because there are too many wrestlers and not enough coaches.  Therefore, they have to help coach.  I am not saying any parent should rush the mat.  This is not a perfect world DW and I don't think any of the official would have allowed any child to have his fingers broken on purpose.  In fact, I think the official watched the had quite well.  I saw numerous locking hand calls that afternoon.  I know the state tournament will be great this year and everyone should support it with their whole heart.  I don't think that the wrestlers will be in any danger and it is silly for parents to think that state will be any different from a normal tournament.  The official will do their best to keep all the kids safe on the mat.  And no, there should be no tolerance for parents rushing the mat just like Ranger said.  DW just stop and take a breath and everything will be okay.  You seem to be the one who is still in an uproar about this.

[Irish Wrestler 10]

In fact, I think the official watched the had quite well.

That should have said "watched the hands quite well". 

[colonel2 0]

Wow...You seem to be the only one on here who saw this stuff going on Sunday...Maybe you were just looking for trouble...Best I can tell you is if you don't like the way Harrison runs a tournament maybe the next time they have one, just stay home...2 certified refs were there and they didn't seem to have very many problems...No more problems than you would see at any other tournament...As I looked around I only saw 1 school that seemed to have a problem keeping parents off the mat...That was the same school that my 6 year old had to dodge as he was attempting to wrestle a match becasue a coach/parent followed them around the mat...After they were told repeatedly to stay in the bleachers by coaches from several different teams...My guess is you probably know them well...My apologies for suggesting you help run a few tournaments...Maybe you have, I guess I have just missed the ones you have been involved with...The one than runs perfectly with no problems...And for the record, I didnt call you an idiot so I don't particularly appreciate you calling me one

[gowrestle 0]

i think we are cheating our youth and killing the parents by not having a better system in place in case of inclimate weather.  its not fair to the kids or the teams that have worked hard all year and then dont get to compete because of decisions by their school systems, yet the show goes on and those that make it there get to call them champions and winners of a tournament that was not full of all the qualified competitors. further more my son is a first year wrestler and it takes a lot of time, work and committment on the part of the kid and parents to make it through the season. if i travel half way across the state for a tournament, spend the night in a hotel in a place that i would never have visited in the first place then the tournament gets canceled because of weather i am not going to be happy, and it is ridiculous. lack of planning and organization makes it miserable for all.

[yacmed 0]

Not to start another argument but there were some unacceptable outbursts at the bluegrass region elementary tournament. I think the main complain with having high school-age kids officiate is that they are much more easily intimidated by an angry/unruly/argumentative parent/coach.

Maybe before youth tournaments begin in the morning either a flier or announcement be made that outlines the code of conduct for spectators and/or coaches. This can serve as a first warning and would empower youth-officials to deal with parents and coaches that cannot follow the rules.

I agree that I've seen very good officiating from some high school-age kids, they know the rules as well as anyone - the problem is when you ask a 16-17 year old to tell a 40 year old screaming maniac to get out of the gym.

Just my $0.02

[heavy83 15]

Yacmed that's what we do at our coaches and ref meetings before the tourn. starts. I basically tell the refs take no crap if the  coaches and/or parents get out of line to come get me and I'll take care of it. Out of line coaches and parents have to options 5 rows deep in stands or 5 rows deep in parking lot. I don't care which one. And for gowrestle just need to pray more 'cause God is the only one can give us a better plan to deal with inclimate weather.

[Has Been 11]

i think we are cheating our youth and killing the parents by not having a better system in place in case of inclimate weather.  its not fair to the kids or the teams that have worked hard all year and then don't get to compete because of decisions by their school systems, yet the show goes on and those that make it there get to call them champions and winners of a tournament that was not full of all the qualified competitors. further more my son is a first year wrestler and it takes a lot of time, work and commitment on the part of the kid and parents to make it through the season. if i travel half way across the state for a tournament, spend the night in a hotel in a place that i would never have visited in the first place then the tournament gets canceled because of weather i am not going to be happy, and it is ridiculous. lack of planning and organization makes it miserable for all.

As for inclimate weather, if they call an event today (reference Middle School State)  then everyone is bitching and complain about how that school system or AD/Principal are all screwed up.  Understand your point of view.

It is sad for the kids and tougher on the parents that support them with time, Love and $$$$$. If its not on Sunday, then everyone will complain about next week as its high school regions, or the week after High school state or Sunday the elementry State. Then maybe the week after, then the kids haven't wrestled competitively in over three weeks and that's not favorable either. 

Not sure what the correct answer is; you can't change mother nature.

[shukydoohicks 0]

This is just a tough situation all around.  Sounds like there have been some good suggestions made.  I think this is why these forums are so usefull because people can make suggestions and if it is a good one then the higher ups could use it or if not the best idea then scrap it.  Point being this continue to voice your ideas and eventually we can all come up with an action plan.  Good luck. :|