State Tournament

[medic636 0]

what did happen to districts????? I do agree its far too easy to get to state these days, put back in the districts and I think that will let the cream rise to the top at state....

[Ranger123 43]

I think the reason for the 32 man bracket is to get more kids, parents, and fans involved in the state tournament so they can see what an awesome event it is, THE BEST IMO. So by exposing more people to it there should be more interest generated in the sport. I'm not sure it's working, but I think the theory makes sense.

[PinToWin 0]

It is all about economics, which is directly tied to the number of fans that show up.

[PeaceMaker 0]

Economics was not the sole motivating factor in opening up the tournament to 32 per weight class. Revitalizing the sport had a great deal to due with the decision. From my observation, it worked. Having attended the state tournament regularly since 2000 and at Atherton (back in the day), there is a noticeable improvement in both attendance and participation from new and revitalized programs. Just attending the last day of the 2005 event was enough motivation to convert my gangly, basketball-playing nephew to wrestling.

Whether you be a purist or a just a casual fan, it's still "two men enter, one man leaves", or advances.

[grapplinfan 0]

As i once said ... which would you prefer ? Keeping the guys out that don't deserve to be there, or guaranteeing all the good wrestlers will make it ? To me, keeping the weak ones out taking priority is like the kids who hang a sign on the clubhouse that says "No girls allowed".

Under the old format there's two scenarios. One is the districts line up with the talent evenly dispersed, the other is that they do not. If they are evenly spread out, the cream rises to the top in that case. If they don't, you make state less competitive. Thats right ... less. Take a stacked region (well, district if we went back to prior days) like the Region 6 140 or Region 6 152 pound class of last year. That "district" had 3 guys finish in the top 5 in each class. If they happen to match up against a "region" with a top ten wrestler or two, someone is screwed. The cream didn't rise to the top in this case. Implying the 16 man format guarantees that it does is then fallacious. No, you can't stop this from happening ever, because talent is variable across different weight classes in different "districts".

Take the 32 man format. Everyone and his brother makes it, ok. But, ALL the top 10 guys are all but guaranteed to get in unlike in the 16 format. Yes, the 16 man bracket is seeded, but what good is it if you seed guys that aren't top 10 wrestlers ? By the time state is over in 32 man format, the cream has risen ... always. Yeah, maybe the best guys didn't wrestle last, but so what ? You could have watched it earlier.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Yes' date=' the 16 man bracket is seeded, but what good is it if you seed guys that aren't top 10 wrestlers ? .[/quote']

The 16 man bracket was NOT seeded. It was done the same way it is done today a random draw.

[overweight 0]

I'm happy............ Are we going to state? If you are, be happy, if you are not (or someone you want to be), then lay off all the better way of doing things. What I see is that what ever works best for the squad or person is how that person likes it. State is on!!!!!!!!!!! May the best person win (I said person). What I see from some of you is that you are not happy unless you complain about something. Done!

See ya in Lexington.........maybe, if you are there. :winjavascript:emoticon(':wink:')

[grandma 0]

It's in Frankfort.

[grapplinfan 0]

Ok, the 16 man wasn't seeded. That actually strengthens my argument, doesn't weaken it. No one still addresses the fact that it did exclude top 10 wrestlers ... all you did is repeat the cream rises to the top and point out fallacies i made in favor of the 16 man bracket and therefore diminish its attractiveness. I would conjecture at least at one weight class you would have top 10 wrestlers not make state under that format. Yeah, top two or 3 guys would be unaffected ... but what about after that ? How is that the cream rising ... i'd like to be guaranteed all the top 10 guys are slugging it out. The way i see it is you have weaker wrestlers at state if you don't guarantee that.

[PinToWin 0]

http://www.newsenterpriseonline.com/articles/2006/02/15/sports/sports01.txt

Article in the News Enterprise talking about seeding the state tournament.

[grappler-of-old 44]

If you have ever experienced the 1st day of the state tourney you know how horrible this round normally is. Only a couple of decent matches and blow outs the rest. If the state ever has to rent the venue they will lose money on the 1st day.

This is my biggest point. As for the top 10 wrestlers making it to state. What wt. class has 10 great wreslters in it?

As far as Ky goes if we have 6 great kids in a wt. class it is considered a killer wt. class.

This is why I want to return to the 16 man bracket. Cuts out one day, cuts out many who don't belong, cuts out 7th and 8th placers.

[Guest DAWG6]

I like the 32 man bracket.

The best part is every year a 4th seed beats a 1 seed and even wins his second round match.

We want the best kids at state correct how many 3 seed from some regions go on medal; but, under the 16 man system they wouldn't even be ijn the tournament :?:

How many kids medal that weren't ranked by Coach Coomes system, he only ranks 10-12 kids :?:

Ranked kids matching up to early, with rangers ranking (20-25) kids; yes, ranked kids match up.

Yes we have some top ranked kids match up in the second and third rounds, if its in the second then the top ranked kid had to of lost the finals of his region :idea: so sorry for the draw.

Three round is the first time the number ones can match up, and we always have second and even third seed kids in that round.

Yes, some of the best matches are the Semi's, but it's like that in any sport. The best kids don't always make it to the finals, and even more its not always the crowd favorite.

[possumdaddy 23]

But it also cuts out alot of money made so unfortunately i dont see the 16 man coming back anytime soon

[Mat-Mopper 0]

I feel that a state tournament loses much of its prestige by implementing a 32-person bracket and "giving out medals" to a large number of participants. If keeping the parents from griping because their son didn't get a medal is such a big deal, then just give "participation medals" to every wrestler who walks in. 16-person, period. District, Regional, and State -- only the top 3 advance, and only 3 medals given per weight class at state. And when you hear someone say, "Wow, so and so is really good, he made state last year," it would actually MEAN something.

As for difficulty and bias in seeding, I don't feel there is any -- if done correctly. What it takes is an impartial person who knows wrestling (coach, fan, former wrestler, etc), who will sit down and analyze the individual record of each wrestler who qualifies, taking into consideration such things as home mat advantage, quality of competition, in and out-of-state matches, point margins, and the whole nine yards. Bottom line, it takes objectivity and initiative -- and not a rocket scientist -- to seed a wrestling tournament.

As for the "best wrestler winning anyway," that's not always the case. A great wrestler could be having a bad day, and a not-so-great wrestler might be having a good day. Yes, that also could happen with 16 people and seeding, but the chances of a really good wrestler losing to a not-so-good wrestler are diminished because only the very TOP wrestlers would even be at state in the first place -- I doubt that a not-so-good wrestler could advance to state by lucking up at District and Region both.

What it all comes down to is a battle between prestige and economics. Sure, a 32-person bracket gives the schools (the government) a much-needed financial boost, but the trade-off is not good for the sport's participants. It doesn't give them something truely unique to shoot for.

The State tournament should be a tournament OF the very best and FOR the very best -- and only the very best. All others: practice harder or take up chess.

[grappler-of-old 44]

mat-mopper:

You have my vote for representing us at the meetings. You are so much more articulate than myself and able to lay it all out there in a much more balanced arguement.

[GB-The-Sportsman 0]

What they should do is make the state tournament two weeks after region. then all coaches have meetings in the off week to seed the top 8 wrestlers, using the best records and common opponents. and then once seedings over, do a random draw of the remaning wrestlers for the 1st round. Easy

[eville dad 17]

This 32 man format has its flaws but its still really cool. Look at all the kids that get to participate, and if you think the tournament is watered down, maybe so but ask the kids that didnt qualify what they think. The 32man bracket has detractors because of its size but it also has its supporters that say the more wrestlers the bigger the accomplishment of the winner.

I think the best wrestler still wins, regardless of who they meet and when they meet em if they dont get it done on the mat then they arent the better wrestler. Thats the beauty of this sport win or go home!

[HHSDad 0]

A 16 man format doesn't fix the problem, because in the past, you would have two very tough regions face each other at regionals and end up having some of your best wrestlers get knocked out of state. At the same time, some districts were getting free lunches because they were competeing against relatively weak regions. In other words, a 16-man bracket presents an equal if not greater possiblity that a top wrestler will face a weak opponent. Maybe we should just make it a 64 man bracket, seed the top 8 in each weight class, wrestle all week, and may the best man endure and win.

[jphillips 0]

Okay so the basic point I'm seeing being made here is that the best 2 guys in each weight class should be the ones duking it out in the finals...correct? If that was always the case, what would be the point in having the tournament in the first place? Just grab the top 2 guys and have them wrestle for the state championship. I like the 32 man bracket. Wrestling is about one thing, and one thing only: the wrestlers. Talk to a few of the "mediocre" guys who "don't belong in the tournament" because they placed 3rd of 4th in their region. They may not medal; they may not even win a match. But the oppurtunity to wrestle in the state tournament is an experience of a lifetime, and it's something that these kids will remember for the rest of their lives, win or lose. You can't take that away from the kids.

[littleschool130 0]

I feel that a state tournament loses much of its prestige by implementing a 32-person bracket and "giving out medals" to a large number of participants. If keeping the parents from griping because their son didn't get a medal is such a big deal' date=' then just give "participation medals" to every wrestler who walks in. 16-person, period. District, Regional, and State -- only the top 3 advance, and only 3 medals given per weight class at state. And when you hear someone say, "Wow, so and so is really good, he made state last year," it would actually MEAN something.

As for difficulty and bias in seeding, I don't feel there is any -- if done correctly. What it takes is an [i']impartial person who knows wrestling (coach, fan, former wrestler, etc), who will sit down and analyze the individual record of each wrestler who qualifies, taking into consideration such things as home mat advantage, quality of competition, in and out-of-state matches, point margins, and the whole nine yards. Bottom line, it takes objectivity and initiative -- and not a rocket scientist -- to seed a wrestling tournament.

As for the "best wrestler winning anyway," that's not always the case. A great wrestler could be having a bad day, and a not-so-great wrestler might be having a good day. Yes, that also could happen with 16 people and seeding, but the chances of a really good wrestler losing to a not-so-good wrestler are diminished because only the very TOP wrestlers would even be at state in the first place -- I doubt that a not-so-good wrestler could advance to state by lucking up at District and Region both.

What it all comes down to is a battle between prestige and economics. Sure, a 32-person bracket gives the schools (the government) a much-needed financial boost, but the trade-off is not good for the sport's participants. It doesn't give them something truely unique to shoot for.

The State tournament should be a tournament OF the very best and FOR the very best -- and only the very best. All others: practice harder or take up chess.

so wrong...32-man bracket ensures that all of the best wrestlers get into state and allow for upsets so if a good wrestler doesnt bring his A-game then its over for him...and i dont think it should be honor to say you made it to state, its an honor to place at state...plus have fun finding someone who is going to have an unbiased opinion on every single wrestler in the state and who is willing to take the time...not so easy

[Mat-Mopper 0]

so wrong...32-man bracket ensures that all of the best wrestlers get into state...

There is a difference between good' date= better, and best. Can you honestly say that someone who finished so low in their region that they just BARELY made state, is one of the "best"? Why do very few other sports do it? Why do the Olympics (another contest of only the best) only hand out gold, silver and bronze medals?? It would turn the event into nothing more than a circus if they started awarding copper, nickel, almuninum, and alloy medals.

[Dorsky01 0]

I agree with Yellowjacket in the fact that the tourney needs to be seeded. THERE ARE TO MANY FINALS MATCHES BEING WRESTLED IN THE QUARTERS AND SEMIS!!!! For example two years in a row Jacob Murton has wrestled his toughest matches of the year in the quarters (2004 i cant remember his name but he was from ballard and in 05 it was robert smith) bot h of thoes boys were the number 2 wrestler in the state in there weight classes that year and they only were able to get third that is not right. I also think that the bracket should be cut to a 16 man just like al the powe r house states, Ohio,iowa, Florida, And Pa. But that is just my idea let me know if you thik im wrong but i feel a state tourney that is seeded will give people a more exciting thing to watch in the finals. Many college scouts only come to watch the finals.

[Cougarwrestler 0]

After watching these last couple days I would say better refs might help to. I seen a couple who are terrible. I wont say any names but I seen one ref who refuses to get down to get count near falls. I think that is an absolute joke.

[HHSDad 0]

At 160, Region 6 is wrestling for the top 3 positions. At 215, Region 5 is aiming for positions 1-3. Both Coopers from Simon Kenton are in finals at 152 and 160.

[grapplinfan 0]

At 160' date=' Region 6 is wrestling for the top 3 positions. At 215, Region 5 is aiming for positions 1-3. Both Coopers from Simon Kenton are in finals at 152 and 160.[/quote']

Exactly right my friend. Finishing 3rd or 4th in one of these regions seems to not doom you to the cellar as whoever that was implied it does. A perfect example of a benefit of the 32 man format. Had region 5 come up against region 7 in the 16 man format or region 6 and 7, you'd have risked diluting the field at 215 or 160. But so long as we keep the weak ones out all is good ....

Every year this would happen almost. I believe last year region 6 had two different weight classes (140, 152) with 3 semi finalists. If you want to cut it down to three medalists ... whatever ... but i can't see how cutting the size of the field helps this at all. Just because a powerhouse state only has 16 guys (after about 4 rounds of elimination ... not two ... huge population difference in Ohio .. part of why they're a powerhouse), it doesn't make us a powerhouse state by copying that.

Cougar,

I totally agree with your take on the reffing down there. I've heard of and seen the guy you're speaking of ... that guy must have mirrors on his shoes so he can see the shoulders relative to the mat.