Thoughts from Middle School Tourney

[Buckeye 20]

I meant that as a JOKE!

[myGSP 4]

I meant that as a JOKE!

:-D

[bulldog-leader 56]

I'm not taking away anything from anyone, and your seemingly high road approach sounds just as bad as my seemingly complaining approach.  It's great that these guys work hard and win, and I commend them for that.  But like tc125 said earlier, some of them get little real enjoyment out of it and do it just to get a medal.  It seems like they would be better served wrestling at a tougher HS tourney, and it seems wrong for them to be eligible for MS state when they haven't wrestled at the MS level all year except for the postseason.  And yes its completely valid to question the age of every participant at every level.  Maybe that's a product of the world we live in today, but it's naive to think that all parents and coaches are above bending the rules.

As I have stated in earlier posts.  I support middle school kids wrestling middle school region and state no matter what they wrestled throughout the year. This is so that smaller programs can still develop their kids with little or no support.

I would also like to add.  My son wrestled 131 this year.  He had to compete against 3 of these middle school kids that competed in high school all year (Cooper, Jones, and Courtney). I have no objections to him placing lower in the state tourney because of these three.  He had to scratch his way to a 4th place finish in regions because of the first two.

He asked several times if he could move down a weight class to get away from them.  My response was NO.  Compete with the best and become the best.  I told him to stay at 131 even though he was down to 127-128 and in the week before region weighing 125 after practice one day.  I am much more proud of his 6th place finish behind Cooper, Jones, and Courtney than if he placed 3rd if these middle school kids were not allowed to compete.

Remember wrestling builds character in our youth.  It builds determination and the resolve to overcome the thoughest obstacles in life.  He will become a better wrestler and more importantly a better person because of his commitment to wrestling.

[CCMS_SC 59]

I'm not taking away anything from anyone, and your seemingly high road approach sounds just as bad as my seemingly complaining approach.  It's great that these guys work hard and win, and I commend them for that.  But like tc125 said earlier, some of them get little real enjoyment out of it and do it just to get a medal.  It seems like they would be better served wrestling at a tougher HS tourney, and it seems wrong for them to be eligible for MS state when they haven't wrestled at the MS level all year except for the postseason.  And yes its completely valid to question the age of every participant at every level.  Maybe that's a product of the world we live in today, but it's naive to think that all parents and coaches are above bending the rules.

TC125 is obviously a HS wrestler from Tates Creek, so unless you are a MS wrestler or a parent of one of these MS/HS wrestlers, which your not because your posts are too grammatically correct and you wouldn't have made these comments, neither one of you can speak for what these young men feel when they wrestle at the MS level.  I'm sure Kevin Cooper, Holtsclaw, and the many others took great pride in their accomplishments.  I went through the HS rankings looking for MS state qualifiers, and if I'm not mistaken, not all of them even placed at the MS level.  So the argument that they just do it to beat up on inferior competition and to collect medals doesn't fly.  Each season MS wrestling is getting more competitive and harder to place.  My son won MS state as a 6th grader last year, and this year came up a little short placing 2nd.  If he gains enough weight, next year as an 8th grader the plan is for him to try to fill a HS spot, but I can guarantee you that he doesn't feel like he has accomplished all that he can at the MS level, far from it.  He's already working harder than ever starting to  prepare for next season.  He's worked all week with a HS friend to help him get ready for region and state, and he's already asked me to start registering for off-season camps and tournaments.  I know for a fact that he isn't this determined and focused just to go and collect a medal.  It is to accomplish what he set out to do and came up short in doing.  Elementary and MS wrestling, I assume, were started to promote this great sport and for the kids.  Both are hurt when we as adults try to restrict their participation, or try to make it more than it is.  It is MS wrestling with young men/women student athletes (kids) participating.  Let them be kids, compete, and enjoy it.  Without these great young wrestlers at the MS state tournament, I'd have found the wrestling rather boring and would have preferred to stay at home.  Congratulations to all of the champions and placers!  Take pride in your accomplishments and ignore topics like this!  Like I should have!!!

[tc125 0]

first of all i went through wrestling in middle school, so i know what its like to wrestle as a middle schooler. second i didnt say they were doing it for the medals, i said they were doing it for the bragging rights and the pride of it. third, i also did not state anywhere, that this was definetly the case.

so tell me this ccms_sc, when your son, works his butt off this off season, and earns the varsity spot on his highschool team next season, how would you like it if some parents, or coaches tried to tell you not to let your kid compete in the regional and state middle school tournments?

[CCMS_SC 59]

I didn't mean any offense tc125 or hrvstrofsrrw.  I was just trying to make the point that no one really knows what they are feeling or thinking except those close to them.

To answer your question.  My son will wrestle MS region and state whether he earns a HS varsity spot or not because to him he has unfinished business, and I'd tell them to mind their own business and deal with it.  He's a 12 year old kid who will be a 13 year old kid at MS state next year.  No one has a right to take MS wrestling away from him or anyone else in a similar situation just because they're good enough or needed to fill a spot at HS.  As I said before, if this were to happen, we are only hurting the sport and the kids.

This same argument has been raised at the Elementary level in the past.  If you're in elementary but you're good enough/needed at MS, your participation at the Elementary level should never be taken away.  It is just plain wrong.  It's adults thinking only about their program or kid not about KY youth wrestling as a whole.

Wrestlers whether youth, MS, or HS only get better by practicing with/wrestling kids that are at their level or higher.  Take the best kids away, you hurt the sport as a whole, you hurt the kids, and you have KY wrestling never catching up with the surrounding states.

I also coach my daughters select soccer team, and the same can be said about soccer, basketball, football, baseball, or whatever.  We built our soccer team around one great player and it has helped develop the other 11 players.  They work harder, try harder, practice harder, etc. to compete at her level.  Tell her she can't compete on our team because she played here or there only hurts soccer as a sport, her, and the other 11 players on our team.  Next year as a 5th grader if she was asked to play for the MS or HS soccer teams, we would play with 11 and would take her back after the school season with open arms.

[tc125 0]

well said cc, and i completely agree with you, seems we are on the same page.

[DrCradle 0]

Interesting topic.......

I have coached 30 plus years in Indiana and last three in Kentucky.....Couple of observations and comments:

While in Indiana...Never, NEVER been to a tournament when you could not wrestle 3 or 4 because of 5 match rule.  Poor planning on tournament organizer...

Middle school kid DO NOT wrestle against High School students or in the state tournament....Let them be middle school kids. 

I think it is a wonderful thing there is a state middle school championship...But you need to run in more in a professional manner.

Just my opion...

[hrvstrofsrrw 0]

I agree DrCradle, the 5 match rule is completely bogus.  And I too would be fine with middle school kids not being able to wrestle up.  Heck, I don't care if they are allowed, just pick one.  The way our MS wrestlers do it is our MS practices 3 days a week (M, W, F) right after school.  After MS practice, and on the days we don't practice, we encourage them to go practice with the HS team, just to get more mat time.  They're in MS, so they wrestle MS. 

In general, I think that if a kid can compete at the HS level, go for it.  If you're that good, then MS probably isn't challenging enough for you.  Even if you're not good enough but you still make the decision to go up, everyone on here has pretty much said that wrestling better competition makes you better and you learn more through hard knocks, so that would seem to be more beneficial to the individual. 

I can't help but think of a possible situation that could spring up from going back and forth.  Please bear with me.  Suppose you have 2 kids, same weight class (we'll say 103), both 8th graders.  Kid A demonstrates that he is a better wrestler than Kid B after the 1st week of practice.  The HS needs a 103 because there's nobody on the team is that small.  The HS coach says to the MS coach "I need your best 103," so Kid A gets the call.  Wrestling HS, Kid A gets significantly better because of the accelerated practices and the improved competition, and he sees a fair amount of success.  Meanwhile, Kid B has assumed the starting spot for MS 103.  He works hard at practice every day.  He, too, has improved greatly since the beginning of the season, but is still not to the level of Kid A.  However, Kid B wrestles well and has a great deal of success every weekend.  Fast forward to the end of January.  Kid A, who is now a legitimate contender for a HS region title, decides that he doesn't want to miss this opportunity to win a state championship, so he comes to MS practice the week before regionals, challenges Kid B, the season-long 103 and winner of multiple gold medals, and defeats him, taking his spot.  Kid A dominates at the MS state, spending a total of 56 seconds on the mat during his 4 matches.  As for Kid B, he may or may not have been able to still go to state (I heard they might change that rule about having 2 wrestlers per weight class per team, and I hope they do because it makes the brackets too big), he may have lost to Kid A in the finals, he may not have even been able to wrestle for a medal because of the 5 match rule; it doesn't matter. 

Assuming that the coach would allow that to happen, this scenario isn't impossible.  How would that be fair to anyone?  You're flushing Kid B's season down the toilet after he worked hard and was there every day, and Kid A could have been wrestling at a better tourney somewhere else at the HS level.  You're essentially saying that if someone's good enough then they can do whatever they want, regardless of who it affects, which flies in the face of sportsmanship, ethics, team play, etc., and I think those qualities should come 1st. 

On a related note, there was plenty of sportsmanship on display in E-town, I know, but then again, there was also some blatant jackassery on display as well.

[bulldog-leader 56]

Interesting topic.......

I have coached 30 plus years in Indiana and last three in Kentucky.....Couple of observations and comments:

While in Indiana...Never, NEVER been to a tournament when you could not wrestle 3 or 4 because of 5 match rule.  Poor planning on tournament organizer...

Middle school kid DO NOT wrestle against High School students or in the state tournament....Let them be middle school kids. 

I think it is a wonderful thing there is a state middle school championship...But you need to run in more in a professional manner.

Just my opion...

We in KY tried the no middle school kids allowed to wrestle high school.  We did not allow middle schoolers to wrestle high school varsity for about 3 years (1997-1999) Not exactly sure of the dates.

Here were the problems. 

1.  Many of the lower weight classes went unfilled.  KY does not have a strong enough wrestling population to keep these wt. classes filled with high school wrestlers. 

2.  We lost wrestlers because of this rule.  Many of the schools in Ky cannot support a middle school team.  Either because of only one coach, no support, or just not enough wrestlers.  There are still about a dozen teams, if not more, that have less than a dozen kids on their wrestling team, which include middle school wrestlers. These teams lost middle school wrestlers because the middle school wrestlers were unable to wrestle at all.

As for the 5 match rule.  What is the answer?  There is no way we can run a 2 day tournament.  Most of the schools would not allow the kids out of school for this event, and many of the schools travel 2+ hours to get there.

hrvstrofsrrw:  Yes your scenario is possible.  To me wrestler B got the better end of the deal.  He was able to participate all year as middle school varsity.  Otherwise he would have been sitting watching wrestler A all year and never improving.  Your situation gave 2 kids the opportunity to wrestle all year instead of just 1. 

      And I can't help but think about the situation I was in when I coached.  No middle school coach, no parental suppport, one middle school kid on the team (1st year wrestler). Got his butt whooped because he had to wrestle high school varsity (or not wrestle at all), went to middle school regional. (I broke school rules to allow this to happen, could have lost my job), he was successful and qualified for middle school state and was 2 and out. He is now still wrestling, (Actually this happened twice) and both have semi-sucessful seasons since.

[turk 7]

Interesting topic.......

I have coached 30 plus years in Indiana and last three in Kentucky.....Couple of observations and comments:

While in Indiana...Never, NEVER been to a tournament when you could not wrestle 3 or 4 because of 5 match rule.  Poor planning on tournament organizer...

Middle school kid DO NOT wrestle against High School students or in the state tournament....Let them be middle school kids. 

I think it is a wonderful thing there is a state middle school championship...But you need to run in more in a professional manner.

Just my opion...

Not too long ago the State tournament was an open invitation to all eligible wrestlers.  And not too long before that there wasn't even Middle School wrestling.  Obviously there are some issues that need to be addressed and some of us are trying to do so.  If you want your opinion heard come to the meetings.  It's easy to point out flaws with the system but it's another thing to actually come up with a solution.  Just saying you need to run it in a more professional manner, or we NEVER had that problem, isn't helping.

[MagicBone 0]

Their was a huge lecture in the meeting at state about how ashamed the guy who was hosting the tournament was and how we are setting an example for the kids,parents and future wrestlers

I ask this.......

How is a ref able to take team points away when a coach is simply asking about if his wrestler had a fair takedown scored,when yet refs DO MAKE MISTAKES,and so does the scorekeepers and table workers....and this was pretty much one ref who also thought it was important for taking a team point away from a young wrestler who was just cheering he made it to the finals,NOT COOL!!!

In one match I had to run out on the mat because one kid didnt know he had a KIMOURA LOCK that looked like a headlock with not the arm but his elbow's pointing downward closed in like he was flexing,the ref waved me away till my kid screamed and popped his arm out of place!!!!!!!

next!!!

How are we proving that this sport is a good idea or competitive to take on when we have to flip a coin because of the 5match rule????

Maybe in a regular tournament that MIGHT BE a good idea but NOT STATE....

The only things I dont agree about is parents attacking coaches or refs or coaches attacking parents or refs,or coaches demeaning their kids in front of everyone but other than that,middle school state can use a few minor fixtures