SAINT197 0 Report post Posted January 25, 2009 NORMALLY I WOULDN'T DO THIS NO MATTER HOW BAD THE REFS WHERE BUT WHEN KIDS ARE GETTING HURT YOU HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING! OUR REFS AT REGION 2 EXCEPT FOR THE LADY WHERE THE WORST REFS I HAVE EVER SEEN. WHEN THEY DONT CALL ILLEGAL HEAD LOCKS OR DANGEROUS MOVES KIDS START GETTING HURT AND IT IS TOO CLOSE TO STATE TO BE GETTING HURT. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPEND TO MY KIDS, THANK GOD BUT I SAW THINGS, FOR EXAMPLE IN THE 70LB FINAL THERE WAS A CHICKEN WING THAT WAS TAKEN WAY PAST 90 AND THE REFS DIDN'T CALL IT AND THERE WHERE TWO REFS ON THE MAT. THE TRINITY KID ENDED UP HURT. ITS NOT THE KIDS FAULT FOR RUNNING THE MOVES ITS THE REFS FOR NOT CALLING IT! THERE ARE TWO REFS TO A MAT TO PREVENT THINGS LIKE THIS BUT THEY BACK EACH OTHER UP IF ITS RIGHT OR WRONG. PLEASE COMMENT ON THIS TO PREVENT THESE THINGS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tc125 0 Report post Posted January 25, 2009 i witnessed someone at the dragon actually tap out and the ref not see it. the kid ended up hurt as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NH_Wrestling_technician_0 0 Report post Posted January 25, 2009 yeah someone at the trojan invitational was tapping out in the finals matches but the match wasn't stop even though there was only like :10 seconds left it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SAINT197 0 Report post Posted January 25, 2009 That happened 2 or 3 times yesterday! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
breeser 0 Report post Posted January 25, 2009 I know how you feel, we have a few Ref's that suck. We have 1 that is kin to one of our local Coachs an you cant get a fair call from him if your wrestling that team. We have had more kids hurt this year then the past 3 combined Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WHS98 34 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 Saint you are way out of line,this is AJ's Dad.Your right there was 2 refs and both said it was legal.See the problem is kids are starting to use tap outs to get off their back.It happened at fern creek in the finals of the 70 lb class.AJ lost and the kid was just fine ,he had his feelings hurt because he was about to be pinned.We were told by many people he does it all the time to get off his back,So whats the ref. suppose to do,he is damed if he calls it and damed if he don't.And as for the lady ref. she also was the ref. for the 70lb. match at N.Oldham with the same wrestlers( AJ and Ben) same move was done Ben tried to tap and she did not give him the tap out.Tap out with a legal move should mean you quit.If you ever see AJ tap tap out(with a legal hold) And I am there,don't worry the match is over.I'll make sure of that.I take pride in telling him not to be a dirty wrestler,in any way.If he does he will have me to answer to.But I tell him to be Physical and thats a big difference Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WHS98 34 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 Saint the one thing you were right on was the head lock without an arm,and that is an illegal hold.Big difference between that call,and the 70lb match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pooge 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 The chicken wing in the Region 2 - 70 lb match did not go past 90... Moving on, I think a tap out should mean the end of the match period. I have seen it abused by kids that just don't want to get pinned way too many times. The intention of the rule is good but it is abused by kids and coaches looking to beat the system. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SAINT197 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 WHS I meant no disrespect I never said I tought A.J. did it on purpose, A.J. is a great wrestler and he is very aggresive. Every time I've talked to him he has been very respectful and I don't think he would try to hurt another wrestler. He was dominating in that match it wasn't a question of points. I'm just saying for our kids sake we need better refs. Those refs made alot of questinable calls over the weekend. But like I said I didn't mean any disrespect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WHS98 34 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 Saint I guess the reason it hit a nerve with me was because a couple of weeks ago a coach in Cinny said AJ was a dirty wrestler.Last year in ele. state AJ was in a match where the kids elbow was what we thought at the time was broke(just hyper-extended) AJ cried as much as him.Aj had his arm broke in a match a few years ago and that kid also cryed as much as him.I am all for keeping this sport safe.I told my wife a few years ago it was a very safe sport.She thinks I am crazy now.Total rules violations (such as the ones with the headlock this weekend)should never be missed,but a judgement call such as if an arm was past 90 deg.or not is always going to be questioned.But that being said I will remind him again what the rule is and stick to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
breakitdown 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 AJ IS A GREAT wrestler! I have NEVER witnessed him being dirty in a match. Win or lose AJ is always respectful and tells the other good job. If more kids had AJ's attitude and respect for the sport, we would have nothing to worry about! Way to go AJ. We are proud of you. We are proud of all the kids that keep a clean match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 some said that the match should not be stoped when a kid is tapping...but regardless if the kid just wants off his back or he really is hurt you have to stop the match..i am sure that is your kids were tapping and the ref did not stop you all would be ticked....and the chicken wing should have been stopped...the refs did not call it but that does not mean it was legal..those refs are first year and do not know all the rules yet....so just because they say it was legal does not mean it was...it was clearly past 90..u have to be blind not to see it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger123 43 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 some said that the match should not be stoped when a kid is tapping...but regardless if the kid just wants off his back or he really is hurt you have to stop the match..i am sure that is your kids were tapping and the ref did not stop you all would be ticked....and the chicken wing should have been stopped...the refs did not call it but that does not mean it was legal..those refs are first year and do not know all the rules yet....so just because they say it was legal does not mean it was...it was clearly past 90..u have to be blind not to see it...I'll disagree with you big time on the tapping point. A couple weeks ago at the Ryle youth tournament my oldest son was winning a match, but got caught in a tight headlock. He was crying and tried to "get out of it" (he really doesn't know what tapping out is). The ref looked at me as if to ask "should I stop it?". Before the tournament it was agreed that if a kid is crying and a hold has to be stopped it would be a point penalty and if it got out of control then the ref could end the match. Well, in this case the ref did stop it. I wasn't sure if he stopped it to call the pin or for the perceived tap out. Either way, I called the match and said the other kid won. I still say the best way to tap is to put your shoulders to the mat and the ref will handle the rest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 yeah that would make sense....have a kid pass out then have there parents on the mat....there is no way to determine if a kid is really hurt or not..you do give a penality point but you HAVE to stop it...i dont know about you but i am not going to let a kid get hurt just because a coach or parent thinks that its cheating....rules are rules..you cant change it nor can i....you have to follow them Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger123 43 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 yeah that would make sense....have a kid pass out then have there parents on the mat....there is no way to determine if a kid is really hurt or not..you do give a penality point but you HAVE to stop it...i dont know about you but i am not going to let a kid get hurt just because a coach or parent thinks that its cheating....rules are rules..you cant change it nor can i....you have to follow themI'm not saying change the rules. But I'm also not saying teach the kids to use this rule to their advantage. I realize there will be a few (very few) situations where a kid really can't breathe and the match needs to be stopped. BUT, I'll tell my kids right now, they will not benefit from a match being stopped. If the opponent is able to catch them in a tight move, too bad. Better luck next time. Avoid that situation. Just living with the current rule abuse is unacceptable to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pioneer_pride 1 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 yeah that would make sense....have a kid pass out then have there parents on the mat....there is no way to determine if a kid is really hurt or not..you do give a penality point but you HAVE to stop it...i dont know about you but i am not going to let a kid get hurt just because a coach or parent thinks that its cheating....rules are rules..you cant change it nor can i....you have to follow themyou beat me to this maddog33. i think from your previous posts, you are a ref, am i right? i was talking to a ref about kids tapping out a few years back. this ref had over 30 years experience, and i thought for sure he would say "i just pin em when they tap". but he said it's in the rule book, if a kid screams out or taps the ref has to stop the match. a ref really doesn't have a choice. i don't believe this is something a ref can ignore...a kid tapping or screaming out. but coaches and parents need to take the appropriate actions if a kid does this to cheat. i seen a trinity kid have his match forfeited this year because the kid was tapping or "playing hurt". not sure if he really was or not, but the coach stepped in and called the match. i think that's the best and most honorable way this situation can be handled. we can't ask the refs to ignore a kid screaming and tapping on the mat.in michigan and i think in other places i've seen "no crying" rules or "cry baby" rules. i thought that was a funny name for it, but it was something like what it sounds like ryle had at their tourney. if the kid crys and stops the match it's a penalty point. after a few trys at this the match was forfeited. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pioneer_pride 1 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 I'm not saying change the rules. But I'm also not saying teach the kids to use this rule to their advantage. I realize there will be a few (very few) situations where a kid really can't breathe and the match needs to be stopped. BUT, I'll tell my kids right now, they will not benefit from a match being stopped. If the opponent is able to catch them in a tight move, too bad. Better luck next time. Avoid that situation. Just living with the current rule abuse is unacceptable to me.You are 100% correct. Parents and coaches need to police this. Sounds like you got Ranger Jr 1 & 2 learning the right way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 you all make good sense and yes i am a ref..i dont like this rule but it is a rule..one school had a lid tapping and i stopped it and the coach said dont stop it next time..but i cant do that...i have to...regardless of if they really are hurt or not which 95 percent of the time they are not but i am still going to stop it no matter what any parent, coach, wrestler, or other ref says....if someone dont like it go to the rules commite...i think barnett is part of it ...talk to him Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WHS98 34 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 Maddog it really amazes me how you ditch your fellow refs.90 degs is a judgement call(if your first year or veteran) like balls and strikes in baseball.where they made their mistakes was allowing a headlock without an arm.AJ has run that same move a hundred times this year and never had it called-but your right and everybody else is wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 Maddog it really amazes me how you ditch your fellow refs.90 degs is a judgement call(if your first year or veteran) like balls and strikes in baseball.where they made their mistakes was allowing a headlock without an arm.AJ has run that same move a hundred times this year and never had it called-but your right and everybody else is wrong.it is a judgement call???that is as clear as a homerun..(since we are using baseball) i am not ditching the refs..no where did i say they were terrible or no good...they made a mistake....they will learn as they go...i guarantee a ref that is not new to the sport calls it...an illegal slam is judgement but a chicken wing....come on..get real...maybe i will make a judgement on a full nelson....if you went to elementary school u know 90 degrees...remember all four corners of a piece of paper is 90 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marjo 2 Report post Posted January 26, 2009 Maddog it really amazes me how you ditch your fellow refs.90 degs is a judgement call(if your first year or veteran) like balls and strikes in baseball.where they made their mistakes was allowing a headlock without an arm.AJ has run that same move a hundred times this year and never had it called-but your right and everybody else is wrong.Just because a move is legal, doesn't mean a ref can't stop it for potentially dangerous. There is a difference between an illegal move (full nelson) and a legal move that can be stopped for being potentially dangerous. I am not saying this was the case in the situation you are discussing but just as an example, if the top wrestler is running a 90 degree bar (perfectly legal) but the bottom wrestler has his arm or leg posted to the side so that he cannot roll, a ref will stop this as his arm/shoulder is getting bent behind his head. The primary responsibility of any ref (especially at the elementary level) is SAFETY. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WHS98 34 Report post Posted January 27, 2009 yea maddog and the strike zone is clearly defined too,but that don't mean people don't see it differant.If you can always tell 90 deg from 91 or 92 you might be in the wrong business. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WHS98 34 Report post Posted January 27, 2009 marjo I do agree with you, if they feel the chicken wing was at a dangerous point stop the match,but that is way differant than a full nelson or headlock without an arm.But don't give a kid the match if it went 92 or 93 deg. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddog33 0 Report post Posted January 27, 2009 maybe you should switch termanology...watch a 70mph ball compared to someone ridin a arm bar is slightly diff..we are talkin about middle school not elem...and the primary for all sports at all levels is safety....that an easy one to call...we are not talkin about 91 to 92 deg..if you can see it from the bleachers i would say it probably was pote dangerous...so i guess that kid faked the shoulder injury after...or maybe the tri coach just felt like complaining...oh well in any case it dont matter what is done is done hopefully they will catch it next time so no one gets hurt Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SAINT197 0 Report post Posted January 27, 2009 I may have used a bad example with the 70lb match! And like I said WHS I know A.J. would never try to hurt another kid I'm just saying that all weekend those refs where making bad calls and we tried not to argue too much but when kids start getting hurt these refs need it brought to their attention! I didn't see what the refs saw I could be wrong so I apologize for that WHS. I'm not just talking about that match that was just an example. There's alot wrong between missing some points and missing an illegal head lock. But like I said I shouldn't have said anything about any particular match so thats my fault. MY POINT IS THESE ARE MIDDLE SCHOOL KIDS WHO LOVE THE SPORT AND NEED TO BE PROTECTED BY US ADULTS NO MATTER WHAT! So sorry WHS tell A.J. good luck at state! I was just trying to get the point across that our kids deserve better refs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
