high school wrestlers popping back up in middel school

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

refdad and pioneer-pride, I corresponded today with Dr. Moore, assistant commissioner of OHSAA, regarding the issue we have been discussing. I will gladly forward the emails to both of you and even post it on this site if other parties are interested.

Regarding our middle schoolers wrestling in Ohio varsity matches, OHSAA states they leave it entirely to the local school/coaches if they specifically will allow the middle schoolers to participate. If the local school/coach chooses to allow or disallow the Kentucky wrestler to participate is the final answer.  OHSAA does not prevent out-of-state middle schoolers from wrestling in Ohio varsity matches.

OHSAA prohibits any form of exhibition competition.

As it pertains to our discussion, if an Ohio coach/principle states it is OK then the Ky middle schooler can wrestle. If the sponsoring Ohio coach/principle states it is not OK then they can NOT wrestle. Therefore, a Ky coach will have to ask permission from the Ohio coach and hope the Ohio coach didn't have the same impression I had regarding the bylaws. The are not mandated to allow the middle schooler to wrestle. If we wrestle in Ohio, we are at the mercy of the Ohio coach/principle. Exhibition matches are strictly prohibited.

Pioneer_pride, it occurs very rarely, very very rarely, but it appears I was incorrect regarding OHSAA prohibiting Ky wrestlers from wrestling. You may gloat until, probably tomorrow, when I easily prove you wrong on something else. But for today, this Bud is for you!

[pioneer_pride 1]

Pioneer_pride, it occurs very rarely, very very rarely, but it appears I was incorrect regarding OHSAA prohibiting Ky wrestlers from wrestling. You may gloat until, probably tomorrow, when I easily prove you wrong on something else. But for today, this Bud is for you!

I'm sorry IPEA...could you repeat that in my good ear?  It SOUNDED like you were saying i was right??  That aint a bud...that's some Dom Perignon!!

[refdad 3]

i-pinned-em-all.... thanks for the, "I was incorrect regarding OHSAA prohibiting Ky wrestlers from wrestling" statement......

  I have never disputed the fact and take your word for the fact that exhibition matches are strictly prohibited by the OHSAA. I only stated what happened in our particular case that brought this whole "middle schoolers wrestling varsity in Ohio" thing to discussion to begin with, in which we received "official clarification from the OHSAA", and that is when it was discovered that we had three middle school kids wrestling varsity, their matches were put out of weight class order and wrestled last in the dual and not scored for team points. This situation was obviously not handled correctly the the head official to comply with OHSAA bylaws. My only dispute was wheather or not middle school kids are eligible to compete in varsity meets in the state of Ohio. I respect a man that can admit when he is wrong. God knows I do a lot!

[dagger 7]

You must be married then. The only time i'm right is when my wife is not around!!!!!

[refdad 3]

LMAO at dagger!

[storm23 0]

I'm taking it you don't have anyone that can compete with Solomon or Samuel Vanover or Sam Preston so you want them to stay out of the middle school tournament.  What about the other kids that wrestle at the high school level?  If you don't think they can win it I guess it is O.K. for them to compete.  You are specifically listing certain wrestlers.  Why don't you address the topic as a whole.  Some of these kids are at programs that can't get enough kids out for middle school and that is the only choice they have is to wrestle at the high school level or not wrestle at all.  You could always try to start another division and leave out all the kids that wrestle in anything other than middle school.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

i-pinned-em-all.... thanks for the, "I was incorrect regarding OHSAA prohibiting Ky wrestlers from wrestling" statement......

  I have never disputed the fact and take your word for the fact that exhibition matches are strictly prohibited by the OHSAA. I only stated what happened in our particular case that brought this whole "middle schoolers wrestling varsity in Ohio" thing to discussion to begin with, in which we received "official clarification from the OHSAA", and that is when it was discovered that we had three middle school kids wrestling varsity, their matches were put out of weight class order and wrestled last in the dual and not scored for team points. This situation was obviously not handled correctly the the head official to comply with OHSAA bylaws. My only dispute was wheather or not middle school kids are eligible to compete in varsity meets in the state of Ohio. I respect a man that can admit when he is wrong. God knows I do a lot!

First, I'm not a lawyer but there is some legal jargon that needs to understood. The commissioner was very specific, Ky middle schoolers (KMS) are NOT eligible and not ineligible. It is up to the sponsoring coach whether to allow the KMS to wrestle. Ohio coaches are under no obligation to allow KMS to wrestle. So it is not cut and dry. If the sponsoring coach says they're not wrestling, the wrestler has no right to wrestle in Ohio. Therefore, a competitive coach may want his team to win and say no to the stud KMS, thereby, creating a forfeit. The coach is well within his rights, under OHSAA, to decide.

In other words, the KMS has no rights in Ohio. Just be careful when dealing with Ohio coaches.  Honey-vs-vinegar will likely allow you to achieve your goals of having the KMS wrestle.

Interestingly, Campbell County had a dual with Ohio Mt. Healthy tonight. I spoke with their coach and Coach Bankemper, neither of them knew of this. The Mt. Healthy coach was adamant that KSM are not allowed to wrestle in Ohio. He was obviously not correct, but he certainly was not uncertain about his position. This coach would, no doubt, say no to a KMS wrestling at his sponsored match.

:mrgreen:

[refdad 3]

Storm23.....what weights are the kids you mentioned at?

i-pinned-em-all,

Obviously its WAY more important to you that you prove your point about this, and that you be right. Our coach forwarded me the email and I have personally read it but deleted it afterwards. I will ask our coach to forward it to me again and get a copy to our buddy pioneerpride, and he can then forward it on to you. The verbage in the email states something to the effect that those rules preventing middle school kids from competing in varsity events dont apply to scholls and or clubs not from Ohio. No where withing what I read makes mention to the coach or principal having the decision as to if kids may or may not compete.

[pioneer_pride 1]

Storm23.....what weights are the kids you mentioned at?

i-pinned-em-all,

Obviously its WAY more important to you that you prove your point about this, and that you be right.

Now you see why it's so important to me to win just this ONE debate with IPEA.  I give dude.  You win, I submit.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Congrats refdad, you are now an authority on OHSAA bylaws. Your evidenced based quotes are indisputable.  Best of luck should your wrestlers enter an Ohio tournament. I am sure all Ohio coaches will absolutely see it your way.  It's been an interesting exchange.

[Buckeye 20]

Just based on reading these posts I don't think that it was refdads intention to be the authority on  OHSAA bylaws. I think it is yours!! :-D

[steve145 0]

Just based on reading these posts I don't think that it was refdads intention to be the authority on  OHSAA bylaws. I think it is yours!! :-D

Agreed!!!

[coach brown 0]

Ok! I guess I will comment on this subject. I am the Coach of Whitley County where Samuel and Solomon reside. These two are on my Varsity roster and wrestle every tournament and dual match we have because they are the best I have at their respective weights. They are also the best middle schoolers I have at their middle school respective weights. It's hilarous that anyone would even suggest the two of them to not compete at the middle school tournaments just because they are good. Should we tell Harrison Courtney to not compete in High school this year, just beacause he wont be touched. This is the same aspect of what some of you are implying. Does Solomon and Samuel have a great shot at winning the title? Yes! Does that mean that they can't be beat? No! Sorry if it makes some people mad that they will be competeing for a Middle School Title this year, but they will.

[mano y mano 0]

IPEA, refpop, Pride, and those interested.  By the way Pioneer, you owe me have of what IPEA owes you for losing this bet.  This letter comes from the OHSAA. 

Coach:

The situation if confusing in that the regulation regarding participation with, participation on the same team with or competition against 9th through 12th grade students is for our GRADES 7th and 8th grade. This means that none of our members schools 7th and 8th grade teams can participate with or against 9-12 graders. BUT our high school teams don

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

FYI.. This is the correspondence I had with Dr. Moore, a commissioner with OHSAA.  People can draw their own conclusions.

First email:

Thank you for your time. I have one, possibly two, simple questions.  We have several 7th and 8th grade Kentucky athletes, under the age of 15, attending our KHSAA school. Our team frequently wrestles in Ohio at OHSAA sponsored tournaments.

1.  Are our 7th and 8th grade athletes allowed to wrestle in Ohio against an Ohio varsity wrestler at an OHSAA sanctioned meet. Given we live in Kentucky, do we have  to follow Ohio eligibility rules.

2. If they are not eligible officially, can they enter a tournament or meet and wrestle as an "exhibition" match and not have their points counted for our team. They would still advance through the brackets, but not have their points count.

Thank you in advance for your response.

1st response:

We have no jurisdiction over whether students below high school level compete against high school students in or out of Ohio.  That decision would remain a local school decision.  Conversely, our middle school students (grade 7-8) are not permitted to compete with or against students in high school or below grade 7. 

Ohio schools are not permitted to offer exhibition competition.  All students must be eligible in all respects in order to compete in contests in which Ohio schools are involved.  Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Debbie

2nd email:

Dr. Moore,

Does that mean a 14 year old, 8th grade, eligible Kentucky wrestler, is allowed to compete in Ohio against a varsity wrestler at an Ohio sanctioned tournament/event?

When you stat,e all participants must be eligible, does that mean Kentucky wrestlers need to be eligible by Ohio criteria or their own state's criteria?

2nd response:

When I stipulate that all students must meet eligibility standards I am referring to all students who attend schools that are members of the OHSAA.  I am fully aware that some states, including Kentucky, permit students below high school age to participate in high school sports.  It would be the decision of the member school sponsoring the competition in Ohio as to whether or not these non-high school Kentucky students may participate.  If an Ohio school travels to Kentucky to participate, it is assumed when the contract is signed that they will play by the rules established by the KHSAA including their eligibility standards.  That is not an issue for the OHSAA. 

As I stated, our middle school students are NOT permitted to participate with or against high school students regardless of where the competition takes place.  But we have no control over KHSAA rules. 

Best regards,

Debbie

[pioneer_pride 1]

FYI.. This is the correspondence I had with Dr. Moore, a commissioner with OHSAA.  People can draw their own conclusions.

My conclusion is i win.  You need to meet up with mano y mano and tell him what he won.  mano y mano, because i'm such a good friend...you can have the whole prize!!!  btw - IPEA give him the double or nothing prize as well.  i'm not stingy.

[refdad 3]

IPEA:... Sir, I unlike you have no interest in being the ALL KNOWING AUTHORITY on EVERYTHING!!!! I can, and willing do admit when I am wrong and never attempted to portray myself as an authority on anyting. I merely tried to explain the gist of the correspondence our coach received from the OHSAA. If you read mano y mano's post you will see that this is basically what I attempted to convey last night but I certainly could not recite it verbatim since I had deleted the email. Also I see no reason to turn this site into a forum for insults from snide, sarcastic remarks from one parent to another but I suppose that tells us all something about your character. Good luck to you and your son and your team this season. I will leave all rules interpretation to the expert, obviously being you from this point!

mano y mano: thanks for the input coach!

[grappler-of-old 44]

Sounds to me like they are both saying the same thing.  In regards to the host school makes the decision, that would be in the contract that they send to the Ky school.  

If an Ohio school sends a contract saying "you are invited to attend our varsity event with your varsity team."  That would imply that whomever is on your varsity squad may participate in the event.

If for some reason they send a contract stating "you are invited to attend our varsity event with your high school team (or high school wrestlers)" then they are only asking for your of age high school wrestlers.

That would me my interpretation.  But as my lovely bride always states your opinion or interpretation doesn't always matter.  

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

refdad, you seem to have a serious complex, one clearly of paranoia. I encourage you to read posts very slowly and repeatedly. Perhaps if you slowly digested what is being written you would realize no one is attacking you. This would alleviate a significant amount of your apparent mental anguish. I never never never attacked you.  People like you puzzle me. You pose a situation for discussion on a public forum, misinterpret other's responses, and then unjustly counter attack. Rather bizarre! Not that I personally mind, I think it is kind of funny. I have actually been quite amused by your posts. But for some reason, I just believe at the other end of the computer, you are likely kicking you dog because someone questioned or disagreed with you. I am sorry if I stressed you. Lighten up dad, role with the punches and remember this blog is one of ENTERTAINMENT and disseminating information.

I would encourage you to read to correspondence I got from Dr. Moore, OHSAA commissioner. Notice, she stated whether a  KMS can wrestle in Ohio was left to the sponsoring Ohio coach. KMS do not have a RIGHT to wrestle in Ohio. Knowing that information may help you, your son and coach should they wrestle again in Ohio. Hopefully, you have learned something. I certainly have learned a great deal. As I stated before, even the Ohio coaches are not aware of the rules. So thank you for bringing the issue to everyone's attention. I know more today than I did yesterday, that makes me happy!

[grapplehed 8]

That's it, I'm hiring a lawyer to get to the bottom of this.  Wait, I am a lawyer.  What kind of interpretation do you want?  I'll make it happen. 

[refdad 3]

IPEA, maybe insulting someones intelligence with snide, sarcastic remakes like you make, isn't really a PERSONAL attack , but I, at this time or any other, have never made a derogatory remark about you nor anyone else on here. Also never did I dispute what you were saying came from your correspondence with DR. Whomever from the OHSAA. I only stated what our coach had received from the OHSAA in the form of an email, which he was kind enough to present for everyone to read. Perhaps the email was not enough to sufficiently answer all question that were unanswered. Not really sure. I only stated the gist of what it contained. I don't care to dispute the matter with you or anyone else any further. Maybe we can return to the original intent of this topic.. High school wrestlers popping back up in middle school.. A few of the kids I know of are:

Wade Holtsclaw

Kevin Cooper

Lane Jones

Caleb Canter

Coach Brown, I have not seen the two kids wrestling for you yet. (Samuel and Solomon) What weights are they wresting in middle school?

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

OK Grapplehed, please answer this question. This may sound like a technicality but it's not, it is actually a very practical situation.

CAUTION! The following may strain the minds of some, if your IQ is less than 100, please exit now!

Fact

1. OHSAA bylaws do not allow KMS to wrestle.  Nothing about out of state wrestlers is ever mentioned in Ohio bylaws. This is a very important concept.

2. OHSAA bylaws do not prohibit a KMS from wrestling. Like I stated above, only Ohio athletes are mentioned in the bylaws.

Therefore, there are no provisions allowing or prohibiting them.

STOP! Digest this for awhile...

OK. If you take your 8th grader to Ohio and tell the coach your 8th grader is allowed to wrestle in Ohio, the coach will ask you to show him the bylaw stating they are allowed. Unfortunately, you can't. Because no such bylaw exists.

OK. Conversely, there is no OHSAA bylaw which prohibits the 8th grader from wrestling.

CAUTION! If you don't understand these 2 facts, your IQ is below 120 and you should now exit and go eat some fish.

So Grapplehed, Dr. Moore states it is left up to the sponsoring coach as to whether the 8th grader can wrestle. If the Ohio coach calls Dr. Moore, she will say, "coach' you are not breaking any rules by allowing the KMS to wrestle however there is nothing which states you have to allow them to wrestle."

Therefore, if the coach says no, then you have no recourse with OHSAA. If the coach says yes, then the KMS can wrestle.

OHSAA is not saying yes and they are not saying no. I am not being difficult, I am simply trying to make sure us Kentucky hillbillies realize our KMS are not guaranteed the right to wrestle in Ohio. So be nice to the Ohio coach and do extensive education with them prior to the match.

Like I stated last night, the Mt Healthy coach was absolutely 100% certain KMS are not permitted to wrestle in Ohio. Although certain, he was nevertheless wrong. He even told me coaches can be fined if they allow KMS to wrestle and he personally knew of this happening to a coach?? Does anyone believe this coach would have allowed an 8th grader to wrestle varsity last night at his school?

[grapplearms 0]

Now that I have digested the above information it is no wonder that one would simply go to OH and rely on the don't ask, don't tell scenario.

[pioneer_pride 1]

So Grapplehed, Dr. Moore states it is left up to the sponsoring coach as to whether the 8th grader can wrestle. If the Ohio coach calls Dr. Moore, she will say, "coach' you are not breaking any rules by allowing the KMS to wrestle however there is nothing which states you have to allow them to wrestle."

There's where I think you are exaggerating your point.  IF the Ohio coach was courteous enough to call the OHSAA, they'd simply say "we have a middle school kid who wrestles varsity in Ky for a team coming to our invite...their coach says he is eligible in Ky...can I let him wrestler our kids".  The OHSAA would reply "yes".  And that would be it.

IPEA you would have made an awesome lawyer.  Just buy your bottle of boone's, and enjoy some of mano y mano's finely aged cheese and don't be shy on double or nothing time.

[tiltfor3 20]

Sorry. I had to go eat some fish. What else did he say?