Proposal 2

[LOWsingle140 0]

Then what makes and Independent school, Independent?

[pioneer_pride 1]

Independant schools ARE public schools and have the same rules as a county school.  What about Shotwell, he lives in Mason Co. and goes to Campbell Co.  Any students can go to any high school they wish as long as the school in the district they live in releases them and the money atteched to them.

This is true, but don't you lose a year of eligibility doing this?  Not sure what the rules were when Shotwell transferred to CC, but under the current rules you would be ineligible for 1 year if you did this unless you physically moved.  It probably didn't apply to Shotwell because he must have transferred as a 6th grader or 7th grader.  He's been there at least that long. 

You are right about indepdendent schools and that public schools CAN take kids from outside of their district - good points.  But school disctricts rarely release funds to the new school district from what i understand.  But even so...without a legal move, under the current khsaa rules, they lose a year of eligibility...correct?  It seems to me that the KHSAA is just trying to make both private and public play by the same rules.  I applaud them for trying.

I think you and i will just have to agree to disagree on this issue.  I can't understand how you can have the attitude of "i know it's unfair, and because life is unfair, let's not do anything about it."  That makes no sense to me....but maybe it does to you.  To continue your points about limiting the # of camps, etc.  Let's get rid of weight classes.  Why should we group wrestlers into weight groups?  Because it makes it fair.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Then what makes and Independent school, Independent?

Its just a title they choose to use.  They are not part of the county schools, which is the majority of the schools in Ky.  Independant means they are independant of the larger school district in thier county.  HIghlands is in Campbell co., but independant of Campbell Co. schools.

Beechwood is in Kenton Co., but independant of Kenton Co. schools.

Hopkinsville is in Christian Co., but independant of Christian Co. schools.

ect. ect. (Danville-Boyle co.)

[grappler-of-old 44]

This is true, but don't you lose a year of eligibility doing this?  Not sure what the rules were when Shotwell transferred to CC, but under the current rules you would be ineligible for 1 year if you did this unless you physically moved.  It probably didn't apply to Shotwell because he must have transferred as a 6th grader or 7th grader.  He's been there at least that long. 

You are right about independent schools and that public schools CAN take kids from outside of their district - good points.  But school districts rarely release funds to the new school district from what i understand.  But even so...without a legal move, under the current khsaa rules, they lose a year of eligibility...correct?  It seems to me that the KHSAA is just trying to make both private and public play by the same rules.  I applaud them for trying.

I think you and i will just have to agree to disagree on this issue.  I can't understand how you can have the attitude of "i know it's unfair, and because life is unfair, let's not do anything about it."  That makes no sense to me....but maybe it does to you.  To continue your points about limiting the # of camps, etc.  Let's get rid of weight classes.  Why should we group wrestlers into weight groups?  Because it makes it fair.

The current rule. (0r last years rule) was that you were locked into the school if you played varsity sports for that school, as a high school student.  8th graders can play for any sport and switch schools their 9th grade year.

I was thinking the same thing along the lines we will have to agree to disagree and that I can't believe you think this is remotely fair for the majority.  OH WELL. 

My point about the camps and such was to point out how ridicules it can get.

[Guest wrestler92]

No matter what the rules are they will never be fair to a certain group of individuals....or so they think.  But it just doesn't make sense to change the rule to hurt some other kids.  In jefferson county at least it all might change anyway with busing.  But the catholic schools here have been (many people aren't going to agree) illegally recruiting for years but noone really wants to investigate it or find out for sure.  The catholic school groups here are always nice and "cooperative"  but they rake in a lot of money for the athletics.  My in-laws all went to catholic school and i know they recruited back when they went to High School....they told me.  and I have heard it for recent years as well, but noone will really say on record. 

[tiltfor3 20]

No matter what the rules are they will never be fair to a certain group of individuals....or so they think.  But it just doesn't make sense to change the rule to hurt some other kids.  In jefferson county at least it all might change anyway with busing.  But the catholic schools here have been (many people aren't going to agree) illegally recruiting for years but noone really wants to investigate it or find out for sure.  The catholic school groups here are always nice and "cooperative"  but they rake in a lot of money for the athletics.  My in-laws all went to catholic school and i know they recruited back when they went to High School....they told me.  and I have heard it for recent years as well, but noone will really say on record. 

Unless you want to clarify "illegally recruiting", I won't dignify that absurdity with a response. I just assume you say thank you to all of us who chose not to add to the burdens of public education with a greater population and continue to support you with our tax dollars.

[Charger Coach 14]

All schools recruit regardless of whether they are private or public.  You can't just wait and hope for the good athletes to fall in your lap.  Some schools are better at it than others.  I guess it is just a question as to what people's perception of "illegal recruiting" is.  Now I know some people say the Catholic / Private schools "cheat", but I do not see it that way.  I know plenty of kids who don't live in their district and go to other public schools and I know it is not for "busing" purposes.  Case in point, & I will have to limit this to football because it is the examples I know, Tony Driver played for Louisville Male & later for Notre Dame and he lived in Ft. Knox.  Karry Pappas played for Trinity on a couple of their state championship teams with Brian Brohm and he lived in New Albany Indiana.  One of those schools is consider private and one, although traditional, is considered public.  I don't like the fact of hurting the kids with a year off for transfering school systems without physically moving, at least not the younger kids.  I could see this for kids who are sophomores or up, but you don't tend to see many kids go from public to private schools after their sophomore year.  It tends to be the other way around, so the public schools still get hurt a little.  However, there will be ways around this just like everything else.  Public schools who tend to place at least some emphasis on their athletics tend to still get good athletes just like the private schools do.  I can't blame a kid for wanting to get a good education and play athletics for a school who strongly supports their athletic program or programs and it does not matter to me whether that is at a public or private school.  There are plenty of good public schools who can compete with private schools.  Ask Trinity and St. X if they have an unfair advantage competing with Fern Creek, Eastern and Seneca year in and year out.

[pioneer_pride 1]

A friend of mine used to coach football at Covington Catholic from the early 80's to early 90's.  He's now a head coach out of state.  I teased him one time saying that they only won their state championships in that time period because they recruited all the best players in the N. Ky area.  He said with an absolute straight face..."of course we did, that's how catholic schools have to make sure they have their registration up".  He informed me that it is not illegal to recruit students.  Private schools always have to do this.  They were just not allowed to specifically use sports as a selling point.  Such as "hey, if you come to Cov Cath, you'll be our starting QB".  But they did this anyway.  I can't say they still do, but this guy said without a doubt coaches did that.  The problem is, it's so easy to get away with this, and to bend these rules, it's virtually impossible to prevent.  To me the KHSAA with proposal 2, is attempting to address a problem.  Everyone on here is concerned about the kid who is going to be hurt by proposal 2 because he has to sit out his freshman year because he chose to transfer to a private school or whatever.  What about the kid that has played pee wee football from the 1st grade to the 12th grade in a public school system and that school has little to no chance of winning a team title because he will face a private school team that is essentially an all-star team in the playoffs?  Isn't that kid hurt as well?  The KHSAA is trying to ensure fair competition.  I say good for them. 

tiltfor3 - would having school boosters/alumni/coaches coaching in a pee wee football league, suggesting to parents and players that they ought to go to (take your pick, in N. Ky it would be Beechwood, Cov Cath, New Cath, or Highlands)....would suggesting to them that "if you want to play college ball, you really ought to consider going to Highlands"  Would you consider that illegal recruiting?  The KHSAA would.  And they should.  But can they prove that conversation ever took place?  No.  Unless we have kids wearing wire taps and stuff.  Maybe that's what it will come to some day.  This type of stuff has been going on for years and nothing has been done about it.

To me this is pretty simple, there is a proposal 2 out there because there has been problems over the years with illegal recruiting.  Maybe this is overkill, but it's an attempt at addressing a known problem with recruiting. 

[Guest wrestler92]

Tilt for 3....I won't bother clarifying "illegal recruiting" for you as there is nothing you can do or would even want to do which is obvious from your lack of a response.  And it's good that you can afford to send your kids to catholic school as well as I do mine even though I don't like how they handle many situations.  But your dollars don't support me for anything so you can hang onto that sentence for another time or person.  I have said my peace to those who need to hear about it  at KHSAA and so have others so all we can do is let them take it from there and not bother with it here.  And since you did dignify it with a rsponse, was there anything else to add?

[grappler-of-old 44]

What about the kid that has played pee wee football from the 1st grade to the 12th grade in a public school system and that school has little to no chance of winning a team title because he will face a private school team that is essentially an all-star team in the playoffs?  Isn't that kid hurt as well? 

Sorry but this is the root of the problem as I see it. 

No this kid is not hurt as well.  He still gets to compete.  Playing sports is not about winning.  How is this kid hurt? Just because he never gets to hold a state championship trophy?  This is shallow.  I tell JR. Who cares what school he goes to, who cares if he has a better coach, who cares how long he has been competing.  Go out there and take it to him.  If you loose and you did everything you can to win, feel good about what you accomplished.  This is where good character is built, not winning state titles.  Also, if he is a good player he can still get a possible scolarship in collage.  Those kids that are that good and participate on teams that are not contenders still are picked up by collages.

Now you are going to tell a kid you can't compete in your sport (AT ANY LEVEL) because your parents did not have enough money to send you to a private school when you were in the 7th and 8th grade.  Even though you and your parents worked hard to get the money needed so that you can go to the high school your parents and family graduated from. 

AHHHH this is why wrestling is such a great sport.  We don't have to worry about this.  It's an individual sport.  The wrestler would have won state if he is that good no matter where he is.  He gets to make his own future and not depend on a team. 

[LOWsingle140 0]

Sorry but this is the root of the problem as I see it. 

No this kid is not hurt as well.  He still gets to compete.  Playing sports is not about winning.  How is this kid hurt? Just because he never gets to hold a state championship trophy?  This is shallow.  I tell JR. Who cares what school he goes to, who cares if he has a better coach, who cares how long he has been competing.  Go out there and take it to him.  If you loose and you did everything you can to win, feel good about what you accomplished.  This is where good character is built, not winning state titles.  Also, if he is a good player he can still get a possible scolarship in collage.  Those kids that are that good and participate on teams that are not contenders still are picked up by collages.

Now you are going to tell a kid you can't compete in your sport (AT ANY LEVEL) because your parents did not have enough money to send you to a private school when you were in the 7th and 8th grade.  Even though you and your parents worked hard to get the money needed so that you can go to the high school your parents and family graduated from. 

AHHHH this is why wrestling is such a great sport.  We don't have to worry about this.  It's an individual sport.  The wrestler would have won state if he is that good no matter where he is.  He gets to make his own future and not depend on a team. 

How you live and grow up is most influenced by your surroundings. If you are on a team that has absolutely no future and has always been mediocre or not too good at a sport, that doesn't exactly mean you will be mediocre or bad, but you would be a hell of a lot better being surrounded by champions. If you want your son to be able to achieve any goals he wants, and give him the opportunity to achieve his max potential, "that dominating private school" is the place to be. "That private school" will be more consistent, and every ONCE in a while, a team will sneak up and upset those powerhouse private schools in the finals. And how could you say sports aren't about winning at all? "If a sport isnt about winning, then why is there a scoreboard in every gym in the country. " - Adolph Rupp. If you aren't in a sport to win, then you better leave that sport. Its not all about winning, but it is after you have learned your mistakes from losing. Winning is fun, is it not? And pioneer is right, it isn't fair. A kid that has worked his butt off at a crappy school that doesn't know how to win but is still dedicated, ends up having his dreams of a state title crushed by a team that is pretty much artificial. You can have that "take it to 'em" attitude, and yeah your kid will have fun, but when he is losing because of his bad coach, and isn't getting looked at by college recruits, because of his bad coach, thats when you will be like wow... its all my fault that I didn't put my son in a better environment. Alright volume 2 of this novel comes out next year, see ya guys.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Lowsingle you confuse trying to win with winning.  No one said you don't try to win.  But HIGHSCHOOL coaches should be more worried about building character than doing whatever they need to do to win. 

Why do you think that kid who is doing drugs is no longer on the team even though he is the best one on the team.  Why do you think that kid that who is failing classes is not wrestling until he gets his grades up?

High school coaches coach because they love the sport and want to spread that joy to anyone they can.  Look at almost any team.  The kid that can't chew gum and walk at the same time is the kid the coach feels good about when he wins his first match.  This kid is not cut from the team, he is nurtured until he succeeds.  Who do you think enjoyed their state title more last year.  Sullivan who was suppose to win or Nickle the one who was not suppose to win? 

If a kid does not earn a scholarship because of a bad coach, then what are you saying? The better coaches are at the private schools?  If this is true then all the good kids should be on one team so those that should get the scholarships get those scholarships because they will improve with the better coach. Should the parents be looking for the best coaches they can for their kids?  This is exactly what KHSAA is trying to avoid.  (no I don't believe that privates have better coaches)

What is unfair are the illegal recruitment that is going on.  The only thing that will change is that they will be recruiting at a younger age.  What needs to be done is tighten up on the rules.  when a school breaks the rule drop the hammer on them.  Don't slap them on the wrist.  Example, I've used this before.  Highlands should have lost their football title, and been suspended from post season play for at least a year when they had the illegal player.  Harsh??? Darn right, but I bet they will check harder the next time they get a transfer student.  This is what needs to be done. 

[Guest wrestler92]

I agree with grappler at this point.....wrestling is individual way more than other sports (baseball, basketball, football).  St. X won a state title a few years back and had no individual state champs.  There are other schools that don't have near the same qualitly team top to bottom and have individual champions,  Joe Powers, Southern....Kannane Hampton, J-town....and I know there are tons of others.  I would say not every kid knows, but a good majority of them are pretty sure what high school they will be going to by the time they are in the seventh grade.  I knew because if I went to another school than my home one my parents wouldn't let me play sports because of the additional travel time.  Many go where their friends go.

[bulldog-leader 56]

I'm just glad that I won't have to make that type of decision next year.

With my son going into the 7th grade next year at Campbell Co., he will not be attending the school district that I teach/coach at. 

But if he wants to wrestle for me when he gets to High School he will be able to transfer because he will be grandfathered in.

[pioneer_pride 1]

What is unfair are the illegal recruitment that is going on.  The only thing that will change is that they will be recruiting at a younger age.  What needs to be done is tighten up on the rules.  when a school breaks the rule drop the hammer on them.  Don't slap them on the wrist.  Example, I've used this before.  Highlands should have lost their football title, and been suspended from post season play for at least a year when they had the illegal player.  Harsh??? Darn right, but I bet they will check harder the next time they get a transfer student.  This is what needs to be done. 

Finally we agree on something!!  :-D :-D

[grappler-of-old 44]

I don't think we ever disagreed that there is a problem. Only on how to solve the problem.

[tiltfor3 20]

W-92, why you getting your panties all in a wad? Apparently, unless you're an illegal alien, your tax dollars are doing the same as mine in supporting public education. I believe every American is entitled to the best education possible. I also respect the diversity of America relative to religion in schools. Thankfully, there are places that address the mind, body, and spirit.

What got my undergarment bunched up was, "illegal". To most, that equates to inducements. That is what is absurd. I've been in wrestling 40 years and you can believe me, inducements are very difficult to come by at any level in our sport.

Recently, the Supreme Court addressed that high school coaches are not covered under free speech regarding athletics.(Brentwood Academy,TN) So, I guess that would now be illegal. However, I think parents, alumni and booster can still exercise free speech. Personally, the area is too gray for me.

[LOWsingle140 0]

Nope, I didnt say the better coach was at the private schools, even though they probably are because they most likely get paid more. But the scenario I was using was if you were going to a crappy public school. And no, theres no way Highlands should of go there title took away, it all depeneds on how bad the crime was. It was a stupid little thing, that whoever accused him, was just being picky. And btw - you said playing sports are not about winning. Enough said.

Lowsingle you confuse trying to win with winning.  No one said you don't try to win.  But HIGHSCHOOL coaches should be more worried about building character than doing whatever they need to do to win. 

Why do you think that kid who is doing drugs is no longer on the team even though he is the best one on the team.  Why do you think that kid that who is failing classes is not wrestling until he gets his grades up?

High school coaches coach because they love the sport and want to spread that joy to anyone they can.  Look at almost any team.  The kid that can't chew gum and walk at the same time is the kid the coach feels good about when he wins his first match.  This kid is not cut from the team, he is nurtured until he succeeds.  Who do you think enjoyed their state title more last year.  Sullivan who was suppose to win or Nickle the one who was not suppose to win? 

If a kid does not earn a scholarship because of a bad coach, then what are you saying? The better coaches are at the private schools?  If this is true then all the good kids should be on one team so those that should get the scholarships get those scholarships because they will improve with the better coach. Should the parents be looking for the best coaches they can for their kids?  This is exactly what KHSAA is trying to avoid.  (no I don't believe that privates have better coaches)

What is unfair are the illegal recruitment that is going on.  The only thing that will change is that they will be recruiting at a younger age.  What needs to be done is tighten up on the rules.  when a school breaks the rule drop the hammer on them.  Don't slap them on the wrist.  Example, I've used this before.  Highlands should have lost their football title, and been suspended from post season play for at least a year when they had the illegal player.  Harsh??? Darn right, but I bet they will check harder the next time they get a transfer student.  This is what needs to be done. 

[grappler-of-old 44]

Once again I saw this question on another blog and thought it was a good question to put out there.

What if Prop 2 does go into effect over the next few years.

What will the measure of 'success' or 'failure' be? How can anyone tell it is 'working'? What objective measure can be used?

Can we use participation numbers as a measure? If participation is a stated of goal of KHSAA that should be one of the measures. Will KHSAA track the participation levels of incoming Freshmen? Do they care?

Do we use 'Championships' won by private/public? Is there a target that when reached indicates Prop 2 'worked'? Is the objective goal to reduce the the number of Championships won by private and increas the number of championships won by public schools? Is this the measure of success?

Will the impact on 'Prop 2 kids' be measured and tracked? Will there be an effort to determine if these kids perform equal or better in academics after being forced to sit out a year from ALL SPORTS at ALL LEVELS by KHSAA, the KBE and the Kentucky State Legislator? Will any of the organizations accept the conquences if Prop 2 leads to a lost generation of Kentucky youth?

     

[CoachBrown 12]

"Nope, I didnt say the better coach was at the private schools, even though they probably are because they most likely get paid more. "

Lowsingle, I'll be the first to promise you that Catholic school coaches due not make as much as public school.

I can't speak for other types of "private" schools.

[plee 0]

Lowsingle, I'll be the first to promise you that Catholic school coaches due not make as much as public school.

I can't speak for other types of "private" schools.

:-D :-D  I was wondering how long it would take for that reply.  I have always heard that Catholic schools do not typically pay higher salaries than public schools.

[Ranger123 43]

:-D :-D  I was wondering how long it would take for that reply.  I have always heard that Catholic schools do not typically pay higher salaries than public schools.

And from my experience other private schools don't pay as well either.  That usually holds true for coaches and teachers at private schools.

[Charger Coach 14]

Yeah, I 2nd that Ranger.  My wife is a teacher at a public school.  She applied for a job at a private school and was offered the position, but turned it down because it paid her $10K less than her current teaching position at the public school.

[LOWsingle140 0]

Touche, touche. But that was beside the point.

[CoachBrown 12]

Lowsingle said:

"Touche, touche. But that was beside the point."

I'm only clarifying, there are enough things on here that are muddled up.