Proposal 2

[Guest wrestler92]

Has anyone heard about proposal 2 being contested by the Nonpublic Schools Commission?  It was passed by KHSAA and also the Kentucky Board of Education.  The only part I don't like about it is if someone is in private school and they decide not to go to a private high school they have to sit out a year for athletics.  That hurts the individuals who do not want to pay $15,000 a year for high school education but didn't mind the $5000 cost of grade school.  I have a feeling it will end up being okayed by the governor. 

[pioneer_pride 1]

Has anyone heard about proposal 2 being contested by the Nonpublic Schools Commission?  It was passed by KHSAA and also the Kentucky Board of Education.  The only part I don't like about it is if someone is in private school and they decide not to go to a private high school they have to sit out a year for athletics.  That hurts the individuals who do not want to pay $15,000 a year for high school education but didn't mind the $5000 cost of grade school.  I have a feeling it will end up being okayed by the governor. 

haven't heard much about it, can you post a link to it? 

[chapper88 0]

actually it wont effect the kids coming from a private grade school going to a public high school. It only effects those coming from public school going to a private high school. And im not sure but i think u only have to sit out of varisty

[Guest wrestler92]

It will affect any kid who decides to go to a school other than the one that is going to their feeder school.  They are going to set up feeder schools for the private ones and if a kid decides to go public school it will affect them as well.  It would not get passed if it was a one way street!!!  You would lose one year of athletic eligibility, just like transferring from one public school to another now without moving your physical address. 

[Guest wrestler92]

http://www.khsaa.org/annualmeeting/20062007/annualmeetingproposals20062007.pdf

[chapper88 0]

there are no feeder schools in private schools unless it k-12. ur feeder school is ur home school. Its a run way street with all those khsaa rules. U can transfer from a private school to public school without sitting out a year I know a kid thats done it. He even transferred mid season and was still able to wrestle.

[Guest wrestler92]

right before you could, but the proposal 2 is going to eliminate that.  That's the whole point of what I am talking about.  It creates feeder schools.....actually read the proposal it would be easier.  There were no feeder schools for private, that's why you couldnt engage in hs competition until you were in grade 9. 

[pioneer_pride 1]

i read through some of it, but it's a bit over my head.  if a student transfers schools, to a private school and lives outside that feeder area (30 miles), would they be eligible immediately?  or would they have to sit out 1 year?  or do you have to live in that school's district to ever compete for them.  For example, if i lived 40 miles from Cov Cath and wanted to go there, could i play sports for them after sitting out 1 year?  It seems to me that what this changes for people wanting to change schools is they will need to send their kid to a feeder school in the 7th or 8th grade, and they will be ineligible for 1 year. 

wrestler92 - could you please break it down for me?

[Guest wrestler92]

They would have to sit out a year for any athletic competition.  That is one thing that is trying to be started, to send the kids to the feeder school in 7th or 8th grade so that they don't switch schools come 9th grade after competing for another school in the 7th and 8th grade athletic meets. 

[grappler-of-old 44]

This proposal may pass. But I doubt that it will. 

They will try to uphold the rule until someone takes the case to a courtroom.

No matter how you cut it, it is discrimination.  There is no way a parent can make a decision about where they want their child to go to high school until they get that age. 

By locking them into a school district at that age is ridiculous.  Many students need the help that the public schools offer while they are in middle school.  Many other parents can't afford to send their children to private school until they get to high school. 

Just to set the record straight I never attended a private school nor will any of my children attend a private school.  In my opinion public schools offer more than private schools.  But I do uphold their right to make a decision that they feel is correct for their child.

Sorry I'll step off of my soap box now.  :-D

[Guest wrestler92]

It's already passed, but the Nonpublic school commission is trying to get the governor to look at it and declare it discriminatory.  If he doesn't do that then it will start with kids in the '08-'09 school year who enter the 6th grade.  I never went to private school, but had friends that did and my kids now do go to private school and there is a good chance they won't go for high school just because of the extreme cost of it by that point.  That is really the only reason I agree with the commission right now, I will say normally I don't agree with them because of my public school upbringing!!

[bulldog-leader 56]

Has anyone heard about proposal 2 being contested by the Nonpublic Schools Commission?  It was passed by KHSAA and also the Kentucky Board of Education.  The only part I don't like about it is if someone is in private school and they decide not to go to a private high school they have to sit out a year for athletics.  That hurts the individuals who do not want to pay $15,000 a year for high school education but didn't mind the $5000 cost of grade school.  I have a feeling it will end up being okayed by the governor. 

1st these are old proposals that were sent to the governing board last year.

KDE or whomever refused to pass any of these laws/proposals.

KHSAA was told to look at them again and come up with something different.  I believe that somethig different was the 6 class football system.  

2nd I spoke to Julion Thacket about this.  I was concerned because my son is in middle school and not in the same district I coach at.  I did not want him locked into that school district if he decided to wrestle for me when he gets into high school.  I was told that if one of these proposals would go into affect any student going into the middle school the next school year would be exempt from this proposal.  He also mentioned to me that he highly doubts that any of these will pass.

3rd The governer does not sign off on these bills.

[bulldog-leader 56]

This was the latest information that I found on this subject from another site.

The Administrative Regulation Review Subcommittee meeting will take place on Monday, July 9, 2007 at 10:00 a.m. in Room 154 of the Capitol Annex in Frankfort. If you are against Proposal 2, then you need to contact the 8 members of the subcommittee with the following message--

"Reject 702 KAR 7:065 (KHSAA Proposal 2) by finding it deficient because it is illegal, would result in protracted legal proceedings, would divert litigants from the education of children, and would unfairly penalize parents and children who make decisions on schools for faith-based reasons. Amend Proposal 2 by replacing its current language with a proposal known as Proposal 8 that calls for increased compliance and enforcement of existing KHSAA regulations."

The 8 members of the subcommittee are listed below along with the path to get to their e-mail links. Just click on the link next to their name and you will go right to their e-mail. If you agree, please send the above Bolded message to them. Also e-mail this information to all of your school community members, family, friends, acquaintances, co-workers, enemies, and anyone you can think of, asking them to contact the members of the subcommittee.

Sen. Dick Roeding [Co-Chair] ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/S011.htm )

Rep. Robert R. Damron [Co-Chair] ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/H039.htm )

Sen. Alice Forgy Kerr, ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/S012.htm )

Sen. Joey Pendleton ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/S003.htm )

Sen. Gary Tapp, ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/S020.htm )

Rep. Danny Ford ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/H080.htm )

Rep. Jimmie Lee, ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/H025.htm )

Rep. Ron Weston, ( http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Legislator/H037.htm )

In addition, as many people as possible need to be present at the meeting in Frankfort on July 9. Please encourage representatives from your communities to be present to show support. Many folks have been working very hard to get their concerns about KHSAA Proposal 2 across to the committee members, and a "full house" at the subcommittee hearing will send a message.

Summer schedules are very challenging. Please do everything you can to get this information out and encourage everyone to contact the subcommittee.

If you agree with proposal 2; then ignore this post.

[Guest wrestler92]

Well I guess you kinda answered your own wrong response post with your second one.  These were sent this past year and are now in effect.  They were passed, as I already said by both KHSAA and KBE.  This is the option that they came up with after being told two years ago the proposals were not passed, the one where they wanted to split high school athletics into public and private school championships.  Any kid who does go into school this coming year is exempt from it as it takes affect starting the '08-'09 school year. 

The governor doesn't have to sign off on it, because it is passed, but the committee doesn't have the final say.  They do the work like any other committee does and then give a recomendation to the governor.  He doesn't have to go by their findings or suggestions and can do as he wishes.  It is up to him to determine if it is considered discriminatory and deficient in its writings. 

If it passes then the legal proceedings will start, just as busing just got shot down here in JCPS. 

1st these are old proposals that were sent to the governing board last year.

KDE or whomever refused to pass any of these laws/proposals.

KHSAA was told to look at them again and come up with something different.  I believe that somethig different was the 6 class football system.  

2nd I spoke to Julion Thacket about this.  I was concerned because my son is in middle school and not in the same district I coach at.  I did not want him locked into that school district if he decided to wrestle for me when he gets into high school.  I was told that if one of these proposals would go into affect any student going into the middle school the next school year would be exempt from this proposal.  He also mentioned to me that he highly doubts that any of these will pass.

3rd The governer does not sign off on these bills.

[pioneer_pride 1]

No matter how you cut it, it is discrimination.  There is no way a parent can make a decision about where they want their child to go to high school until they get that age. 

By locking them into a school district at that age is ridiculous.  Many students need the help that the public schools offer while they are in middle school.  Many other parents can't afford to send their children to private school until they get to high school. 

I'm not sure if this is discrimination or not as long as the rules are applied consistently amongst public schools & private schools.  How would this impact kids that legally move from 1 public school district to another?  Would this be applied consistenly with private & public schools?  For example, a kid that legally moves from 1 public school to another is instantly eligible - if the receiving school determines the student is academically eligible.  If someone was to move from outside of the private school's district into a new private school district, would they be instantly eligible? 

As long as it is applied consistently, to me this is not that big of a deal.  It seems like what the KHSAA is trying to address is preventing private schools from having an unfair competitive advantage because they can draw kids from anywhere in the state/country (Isaac Knable lived in Indiana, and was a 4 time Ky state champ).  This doesn't seem to be that big of a deal in wrestling yet.  But this has a huge impact on football and other sports. 

Either way you go, it's not fair to someone - it's not fair to the public schools to have to compete in a league for a championship with teams that play by their own set of rules (private schools having endless boundaries).  If this rule goes into effect, people who want to send their kid to a private school will have to sit out a year.  It seems like the best compromise would be to do just what the KHSAA is doing.  The worst thing to do would be to ignore the existing problem. 

There's my 2 cents worth.

[pioneer_pride 1]

Man, I must be a thread killer!  I thought this thread would blow up.

[Guest wrestler92]

You are exactly right as to the purpose of why the proposal is brought up.  To prevent recruitment from happening.  However I think kids should be able to go from private grade school to public high school, it's really kinda common if you look at the number of kids in grade school versus those in high school for catholic schools.  If you move your actual address right now and with this proposal in effect you would be eligible for competition at the new school. 

[grappler-of-old 44]

     Your missing the big problem here.  How in the world can you say that a child is locked into a high school before he even attends the high school or for that matter is even old enough to attend that high school. 

     As for it not being fair for the public schools to compete against private schools who draw from a larger boundary area.  I don't see it.  Actually they have a smaller pool of people to draw upon.  Most of the people in these areas will never send their child to a private school  Either because of religious reasons transportation reasons or economical reasons.  Its no different than Danville competing against Ryle who has probably 3 times as many students. 

     I think what you need to do is put yourself in this situation.  What if you like the gradeschool and middle school your child will be attending.  The high school they must attend you don't like for whatever reason.  Be it academically or they don't offer the sport your child wants to play.  When you send your child to the high school that has what you want for your child your child must now sit out one year in the sport he/she wants to play.  This may not seem like a big deal to some, but what if this sport may be able to get him/her a scholarship to collage?  Do you think you can look that far in advance to make the correct decisions for your child?  You will have to do this before they start 7th grade. 

     I'm sorry to those that I may offend on this but this is a ridicules proposal.  We want people to start respecting the sports in KY, yet we start making more and more idiotic rules which other states laugh at.  I've spoken to people in Ohio and Florida about this and they just laugh and say why do you guys care about this?  If you guys would spend as much effort to improve your sports as you have on these proposals your sports would improve dramatically.  If you combine this with our rule about coaches not being able to coach out of season.............. :x :x :x

    OK my head is going to explode I'm so riled up about this.  :evil:

[BiggieD275 1]

just saying if this was passed, what would happen to a kid that wanted to wrestle but was locked in to a school that did not have wrestling. 

[pioneer_pride 1]

     Your missing the big problem here.  How in the world can you say that a child is locked into a high school before he even attends the high school or for that matter is even old enough to attend that high school. 

That is the only sticky part of this proposal in my mind.  You are right, this part of it stinks.

     As for it not being fair for the public schools to compete against private schools who draw from a larger boundary area.  I don't see it.  Actually they have a smaller pool of people to draw upon.  Most of the people in these areas will never send their child to a private school  Either because of religious reasons transportation reasons or economical reasons.  Its no different than Danville competing against Ryle who has probably 3 times as many students. 

You must be blind not to see this.  Look at 3A & 4A football.  Yes, they have a smaller pool of people to draw from, but if that "draw" contains the top football talent in the state, then the number of kids doesn't matter.  I'm not accusing any schools of illegally recruiting....although it probably happens a little.  The fact is, because the private schools CAN take kids from anywhere...it is not hard for a group of kids to say "i want to win a football state championship, so i want to go to St. X, Highlands, Cov Cath, New Cath, or Trinity."  Can Boone County accept these kids?  Can Dixie?  No.  That's why the KHSAA & the public school coaches are doing something about this.  They proposed that the private schools have their own state championship...or own leagues...(i believe this is done to some degree in Ohio).  The private schools were completely opposed to this. 

     I think what you need to do is put yourself in this situation.  What if you like the gradeschool and middle school your child will be attending.  The high school they must attend you don't like for whatever reason.  Be it academically or they don't offer the sport your child wants to play.  When you send your child to the high school that has what you want for your child your child must now sit out one year in the sport he/she wants to play.  This may not seem like a big deal to some, but what if this sport may be able to get him/her a scholarship to collage?  Do you think you can look that far in advance to make the correct decisions for your child?  You will have to do this before they start 7th grade. 

You are right here.  That would stink.  However, it won't happen all that often...and it's only sitting out the first year.  For most of these kids, that would mean their freshman year.  Not exactly the most critical year.  Also, if you are ineligible, does that mean you can not practice?  Or just not compete?  Just curious.  Either way, i think this is a downside but it is worth it to have a fair competition.

     I'm sorry to those that I may offend on this but this is a ridicules proposal.  We want people to start respecting the sports in KY, yet we start making more and more idiotic rules which other states laugh at.  I've spoken to people in Ohio and Florida about this and they just laugh and say why do you guys care about this?  If you guys would spend as much effort to improve your sports as you have on these proposals your sports would improve dramatically.  If you combine this with our rule about coaches not being able to coach out of season.............. :x :x :x

    OK my head is going to explode I'm so riled up about this.  :evil:

Settle down Beavis.  :-D :-D  Don't get too riled up about this.  90% of the people who will be impacted by this are people who the rule is supposed to impact.  Kids transferring to private schools strictly for athletics.  This is meant to prevent illegal recruiting & stacking all-star teams.  This is the other part of the big problem that you are missing.  This rule stinks for legitimate kids who want to go to a private school....but not having this rule stinks for the public school kids who can't win a state championship because private schools can draw all the best athletes.

[grappler-of-old 44]

You must be blind not to see this.  Look at 3A & 4A football.  Yes, they have a smaller pool of people to draw from, but if that "draw" contains the top football talent in the state, then the number of kids doesn't matter. 

I don't think this does matter.  So if these people all decide to move to one subdivision and produce top notch football players, are you then going to restrict how many can go to a specific school?

 

Can Boone County accept these kids?  Can Dixie?  No.  That's why the KHSAA & the public school coaches are doing something about this. 

Yes they can except these kids, LOOK AT HIGHLANDS.

They proposed that the private schools have their own state championship...or own leagues...(i believe this is done to some degree in Ohio). 

Ohio does not do this, St. Ed wins the wrestling title almost every year.

In Ky wrestling would have what 5 schools in wrestling.  Ridiculous.

You are right here.  That would stink.  However, it won't happen all that often...and it's only sitting out the first year.  For most of these kids, that would mean their freshman year.  Not exactly the most critical year.  Also, if you are ineligible, does that mean you can not practice?  Or just not compete?  Just curious.  Either way, i think this is a downside but it is worth it to have a fair competition.

NOT that critical?? That is contradictory to why gradeschool and middle school wrestling is becoming important.  Have you ever seen someone that sits out 1 year. Most never return to their competitive level.

Settle down Beavis.   :-D :-D  Don't get too riled up about this.  90% of the people who will be impacted by this are people who the rule is supposed to impact.  Kids transferring to private schools strictly for athletics.  This is meant to prevent illegal recruiting & stacking all-star teams.  This is the other part of the big problem that you are missing.  This rule stinks for legitimate kids who want to go to a private school....but not having this rule stinks for the public school kids who can't win a state championship because private schools can draw all the best athletes.

If they just tightened up on the already existing rules that KHSAA has in place there would be no need for this.

Its the responsibility of the school to develop a tradition at their school so that kids won't leave to go to other schools. Woodford seems to be able to do this in wrestling.  Highlands seems to be able to do this in Football, as does Beachwood. 

Life is not fair.  Isn't this what we teach our children.  You overcome the obstacles in front of you so that you can succeed.

[pioneer_pride 1]

Highlands and Beechwood are independent schools and CAN take kids that live outside of their school district.  Restrict them to kids within their district and Highlands doesn't have a Jared Lorenzen go there (he lived in Scot's district).  In fact, in the past Highlands has had kids play for their team that lived in Ohio. 

As far as the kids moving to a district, that's fine.  No one would suggest that if you move you should sit out a year. 

Ohio has Catholic leagues.  The GCL...and others throughout the state.  They do enter the same state tournament as public schools...that is true.  Is it fair, NOT EVEN CLOSE!  Lakewood St. Ed's has had kids attending their school from Michigan!!  That's B.S.!  Speaking of Ohio though, the archdiocese of Cincinnati has made rules in the GCL to prevent recruiting.  In the 70's and 80's Moeller used to dominate in football.  Moeller used to pull guys from all over the area.  The archdiocese stepped in and put rules in place similar to what proposal 2 is proposing.  Now you see much more balance in football in the GCL.  Elder has become a power. 

As far as it being ridiculous to have 5 private schools in their own state tournament.  I think proposal 2 is a compromise so that it doesn't come to that. 

I agree life is not always fair, and there is sometimes that it will never be fair...but if you CAN make things fair, it's a cop out not to at least try.  Just remember, there would not be a proposal 2 if private & independent schools had not taken advantage of this over the years.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Independant schools ARE public schools and have the same rules as a county school.  What about Shotwell, he lives in Mason Co. and goes to Campbell Co.  Any students can go to any high school they wish as long as the school in the district they live in releases them and the money atteched to them.  Even then the school can take the student and not recieve the state money for them.

The private schools did not take advantage.  It is not as if they are saying "Hey your a good running back come to our school and we will not make you pay tuition".

Everything is equal if the KHSAA rules are followed as they are written.  The problem is that they are not being followed and when they are broken the punishments are not inforced.  Look at Highland 2 or 3 years ago thier official record was 2-10 (or something like that) because of the ineligable kid they had on the team.  They were able to keep the state title. But in Ohio when Colrain (I believe it was Colrain) had an ineligable kid they were not even alound to compete in the state finals.  If the KHSAA would just crack down on the violators everything would be fair. 

Once again here we go teaching our children if you can't beat them, change the rules so that they can't beat you. 

Hey how about we change the rules to say that a wrestler can only attend 1 wrestling camp each summer because it is unfair for those that can't afford wrestling camps.  Or maybe we say that those schools with more money to spend on thier sports such as a weight room and such have to get 12 yards for a 1st down because they have a much better weight room than lower income schools.  (yes this is sarcasm)

Hey why don't we give people who don't work money and food so that they can be like everyone else.  OH wait a minute we already do this.  Ah yeah that is why my taxes are so high.  :roll:

[LOWsingle140 0]

Ok, ok. First of all, Highlands in 2004 had a kid that transfered in from Cov Cath named Mike Mitchell, who was found ineligible

a week or so before the state championship game, which Highlands went on to win the state title without him, just to clear that up.

And I'm pretty sure Colerain's ineligible situation was way more severe. And about Shotwell... I believe, according to Cam Co, and

maybe even Boone Co, if you get approved by the board of ed of the county there can be acceptions of out of district kids if you

have a legit excuse (Mason doesnt have a wrestling team) and if you provide your own ride every day to school. And about private

schools being the nice guys and would never take advantage of there infinite possibilities of recruitment, they do. And independent

schools are the same as public schools, but I believe there learning/testing is different? And im not even going to say anything about

your last two paragraphs because they are completely irrelevant.

Independant schools ARE public schools and have the same rules as a county school.  What about Shotwell, he lives in Mason Co. and goes to Campbell Co.  Any students can go to any high school they wish as long as the school in the district they live in releases them and the money atteched to them.  Even then the school can take the student and not recieve the state money for them.

The private schools did not take advantage.  It is not as if they are saying "Hey your a good running back come to our school and we will not make you pay tuition".

Everything is equal if the KHSAA rules are followed as they are written.  The problem is that they are not being followed and when they are broken the punishments are not inforced.  Look at Highland 2 or 3 years ago thier official record was 2-10 (or something like that) because of the ineligable kid they had on the team.  They were able to keep the state title. But in Ohio when Colrain (I believe it was Colrain) had an ineligable kid they were not even alound to compete in the state finals.  If the KHSAA would just crack down on the violators everything would be fair. 

Once again here we go teaching our children if you can't beat them, change the rules so that they can't beat you. 

Hey how about we change the rules to say that a wrestler can only attend 1 wrestling camp each summer because it is unfair for those that can't afford wrestling camps.  Or maybe we say that those schools with more money to spend on thier sports such as a weight room and such have to get 12 yards for a 1st down because they have a much better weight room than lower income schools.   (yes this is sarcasm)

Hey why don't we give people who don't work money and food so that they can be like everyone else.  OH wait a minute we already do this.  Ah yeah that is why my taxes are so high.  :roll:

[grappler-of-old 44]

I was not going to bring the kids name into it. But the Highlands kids was ruled ineligable a week before the state title.  They were in court the whole season.  Even if they won withough him they MAY not have gotten there without him. 

Any school can exept a student from elswhere no matter what the situation.  As long as the Board OK's it.

Take my word for it Independant schools don't test or learn any different.  I know first hand.

The last paragraph is not irrelevant because they are other ways to try and even the field, which others may try next. 

(And no I did not attend a private school.  LOL nor am I Catholic.  you don't want to know where I stand on that issue.)  I am however an American and believe in the freedom of the individual.