Petition to eliminate the 5 match rule

[Guest wrestler92]

I can't believe that it has anything to do with insurance for the ref's, I wouldn't think they are reliable for any kind of injury, accident, etc.?  I dont understand what they have to do with it, but it doesn't bother me as a ref.  It's just an enforcement of a rule, so change the rule and there wouldn't be a problem i would think.  The bad thing about not inviting as many schools is that many of us don't have full teams so then you have a 8 man bracket with maybe sometimes only 3-4 guys.  then they don't get many matches and it's a long day for some people to just watch others wrestle. 

The only way I can think of allowing kids to wrestle more than 5 matches in a day would be to purchase additional insurance for the refs.  I'm not sure if this is even possible, but I believe that's how some of the national tourneys like Cincy 3-way gets away with going beyond the 5 match rule.  I don't know how the refs would feel about this, but when i've asked refs about this...they were not interested at all. 

It's great to discuss this stuff on the message boards, but the only place it will get resolved is at a coaches meeting.  The next m.s. statewide coaches meeting is 5/20/2007, at lexington lafayette h.s cafeteria.  at 2pm.

[plee 0]

I can't believe that it has anything to do with insurance for the ref's, I wouldn't think they are reliable for any kind of injury, accident, etc.?  I dont understand what they have to do with it, but it doesn't bother me as a ref.  It's just an enforcement of a rule, so change the rule and there wouldn't be a problem i would think.  The bad thing about not inviting as many schools is that many of us don't have full teams so then you have a 8 man bracket with maybe sometimes only 3-4 guys.  then they don't get many matches and it's a long day for some people to just watch others wrestle. 

From what i've been told, it has everything to do with the insurance for the refs.  Referees are insured through some national organization.  (You'll have to check with a KHSAA certified ref to get the details.  I don't know who it is, but they are.  Ask one of the more experienced refs).  Referees are very much responsible for the safety of the wrestlers on the mat.  If they know you are violating the 5 match rule, they will straight up refuse to referee.  If a kid gets injured, they know their insurance is void.  I've been told this by 2 coaches that host multiple tournaments per year, and by 1 or 2 refs.  I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong here, but the people i've talked to said no way will they ref if they know we are violating the 5 match rule.  I'm not saying i like this rule....but there has to be some limit.  If I'm wrong on this, if there's a certified ref out there, please correct me.  We've been struggling with this for a few years now.

[tc125 0]

Well their insurance would be void if you VIOLATED the five match rule. but if the rule changed, then so would the insurance for the refs, making it perfectly fine to wrestle more than five matches.

[plee 0]

Well their insurance would be void if you VIOLATED the five match rule. but if the rule changed, then so would the insurance for the refs, making it perfectly fine to wrestle more than five matches.

I see your point now.  Sometimes i'm just thick headed.  If you were to change that at a national level, that would be the way to go.

[clancy 0]

Don't other states, i.e. Ohio, not require a the wrestler to forfeit but the match is a draw if they come up to match six.

Also maybe some orginization in these tournaments would solve the problem. 

[Guest wrestler92]

this is what I was trying to say, it isn't up to the insurance as to if the can wrestle 5 matches once the rule is changed.  If they did it now with the rule in place then yes I could see a problem, but you would have to prove I think that the referee knew it was his sixth match.  It's not up to them to keep track of it, it's the tournament directors responsibility where i would think most of the liability would rest.

Well their insurance would be void if you VIOLATED the five match rule. but if the rule changed, then so would the insurance for the refs, making it perfectly fine to wrestle more than five matches.

[plee 0]

this is what I was trying to say, it isn't up to the insurance as to if the can wrestle 5 matches once the rule is changed.  If they did it now with the rule in place then yes I could see a problem, but you would have to prove I think that the referee knew it was his sixth match.  It's not up to them to keep track of it, it's the tournament directors responsibility where i would think most of the liability would rest.

I agree...but if you've ever run a tournament...then you know if you try to sneak a 6th match in on a ref....they will not be happy at all if they find out about it.  that's my point.  yes, if you could somehow get this raised to 6 matches, that would be great.  some tournaments disregard the 6th match rule...as someone else pointed out for example at the cincy 3-way nationals, you could wrestle 9 matches in a day.  they do this by going through another insurance provider for the ref...probably USAW i think. 

[eaglewrestler12 2]

One thing i would like to change is the fact that forfeits count as a match wrestled. At middle school state the kid that was supposed to wrestle me for third place had really only had 4 matches, but he had a forfeit which counted as a match even though all he did was walk on the mat and get his hand raised.

[grappler-of-old 44]

I agree, forfeits should not count.  If they did not physically wrestle in a match it should not count toward the 5 match rule.

[plee 0]

Yea, the forfeit part stinks.  I've heard other people say it should go by total match time too.  I like this idea better.  For example, you're allowed 30 minutes of wrestling per day.  That way if a kid gets 3 first period pins, he can wrestle another match or 2. 

[tc125 0]

Yeah that's a good idea, but they would never go for that because of the amount of time it would take to calculate all of that.

[Guest wrestler92]

The problem with that is if you have a match that goes into overtime then you could conceivable run out of time before you hit 5 matches even.  or if you leave enough time in there to account for the possibility of overtime than you have almost allowed 6 matches, so might as well just change it to 6 in a day.  I do like the idea of forfeits not counting, I have never understood that or an injury default either if you don't wrestle.

[tc125 0]

forfeits should count as a win in a dual match, maybe not a six point win, but a win none the less. and you should get the advancement points and placements points for byes and forfeits in tournaments, but they should not count towards your five matches. and for your record, maybe a separate section, like your total wins, total losses, then forfeits or something. and if it came down to it for seeding purposes include the forfeits in the win catagory or something. maybe thats just a stupid idea, but hey i'm throwing it out there.

[High C 0]

I don't think that the 5 match rule should just be completely done away with but I do think that it should be revised. Maybe bump it up to 6 or 7 matches?

[clancy 0]

I still can't believe that they call it a forfeit when, due to the rules or poor planning, a wrestler can't continue.  I also find it odd that any self-respecting wrestler would count a forfeit as a win, do they count them in duals when the other team doesn't have a wrestler?  Lastly, like I said before, in Ohio they count as a draw, both wrestlers lose.  It is a real shame that they make a guy forfeit due to poor planning.

[grappler-of-old 44]

I also find it odd that any  wrestler would count a forfeit as a win, do they count them in duals when the other team doesn't have a wrestler? 

Forfeits are wins especially in duals.  Why would you not count it as a win.  If you go to a dual and your opponent does not make weight, are you to be punished because you made weight and he did not?  Should wrestlers be punished because they made weight and the opposing team can't fill their wt. classes. What about the returning state champion who gets forfeits because the opposing team has a 1st year wrestler that the coach does not allow to wrestle him? 

Of course it is a win.  Most wrestlers don't like forfeits, but they are still part of the sport and should continue to be counted as part of your overall record. 

[kdsmith27 14]

The problem with that is if you have a match that goes into overtime then you could conceivable run out of time before you hit 5 matches even.  or if you leave enough time in there to account for the possibility of overtime than you have almost allowed 6 matches, so might as well just change it to 6 in a day.  I do like the idea of forfeits not counting, I have never understood that or an injury default either if you don't wrestle.

Forfeits count in Tournaments because the wrestler recieves advancement points for the team.

[clancy 0]

I am sorry I even responded.  I guess they should count whatever victories they want, scrimmages, wrestle-offs, byes whatever.  However, my one question is shouldn't every win in the win column should have a counterpart in someones loss column?  My point being if a kid doesn't  make weight in a five team dual, does he automatically chaulk up four loses?

[grappler-of-old 44]

If team "A" does not make weight at 103 the individual wrestler does not recieve a loss.

Team "A" recieves a loss at 103, but no-one keeps track of the team's wt. class record.

[clancy 0]

Back to the original topic.  If a guy hits five matches, it is no fault of his own, it should be a draw and both receive third place or fifth place.  But if in KY they count it as a forfeit the guy that wrestled five matches gets an automatic loss and takes fourth place or sixth.  I don't know, but is this how things work. If it was missed I am for the five match rule.  After five tough matches a wrestler should be spent and not able to perform to his/her potential and not be subjected to an automatic loss.

[Mathound 4]

This rule also took place during the Region 7 tournament. A couple kids had to forfeit the 3rd/4th place matches and even the 5th/6th for alternate placement.

[tc125 0]

yeah, i understand alot of kids were dissapointed, and they have a right to be.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Those regions that will have the possiblity to reach the 5 match rule should be required to make it a 2 day tournament.

I can remember back in the stone age when I wrestled that we had a couple of districts and even a region that was 2 days.

[tc125 0]

a two day tournament is way to much of a hassel if you ask me. i say we just fix the match rule limit. seems like that would be the easier way to go.

[grappler-of-old 44]

So what happens do we change the rule to 6 then when that rule becomes a problem we go to 7. 

The reason it is at 5 is because this is an adequate amount of time for a wrestler to recouperate after a match.  A match takes between 10-15 minutes to finish which means actually 1 match an hour. 

We didn't seem to think it was too much of a hasstle to extend the state tourney to 3 days.  Why not have one round on Friday night, and continue the tourney the next day.