Warner vs Peace

[Ranger123 43]

I hate it when wrestlers use the weight differential as an excuse.

Both wrestlers are usually getting to weight and then gaining a bit after eating, so the actual difference remains the same - it does not increase.

The difference between the weight classes in the 125-140 range is around 4% of your body weight.  This IS insignificant.  Wrestlers in the upper weight move up a class and they are giving up much greater percentages.  The difference between 160-171 is about 7%; 171-189 about 11%; 189-215 about 14%; 215-285 about 33%.  To put it in perspective, if you wrestled somebody that had a body weight 11% greater than your own, as a 125 you would be wrestling somebody weighing 139 (140 lb class).  If a 171 can move up a class and win, why are you arguing about a few pounds?  You should be able to take on a 140 and beat them.

The real difference is not the weight, it's your desire.

I wouldn't go that far.  I agree that 5 pounds is not a big deal and I believe, had the situation been reversed, that Peace would have bumped up.  BUT, given the timing this late in the season I don't blame Warner for passing rather than take the risk of getting hurt.  Even a minor injury could make a difference in the post season.  If the meeting had been a few weeks prior I might jump on the bankwagon and call him afraid.  But at this point I'll call it a smart move.  Take the win at 135 and move on.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Northern your logic is quite poor. Why don't we simplify matters.  Let's just have 3 weight groups. 100-150, 150-200, >200. Perhaps your eyes are unable to differentiate between a 125 pounder and a 140 pounder but mine certainly can. Choose your best 125 pounder and he will get beat by an average 140 pounder every time. You try to simplify with mathematics but bottom line we are comparing 11% of lean body mass, i.e. pure muscle.  11% is an enormous difference. 15 lbs of pure muscle. How much do you think an isolated bicep muscle weighs, a pound, maybe 2 pounds. Think how much force a 2 lbs bicep can generate. Now think about 15 lbs of pure muscle.

I simply don't like the inference that Warner should bump up a weight group and jeopardize his senior year for our viewing and entertainment pleasures. Warner doesn't need any excuses. He will be a state champ as will Peace. I do think having a debate about who is better is harmless and interesting as long we don't demean one of our champions. Words like "excuses' and "blink" are unnecessary and show disrespect to these finely tuned athletes.

Peace weighing in at 135 would have his hands full with Warner at 135. Warner and Peace both at a true 140 would be equally interesting. Fortunately, Warner is not only a great athlete but appears to be smarter than most wrestling bloggers. 

[tc125 0]

Thank you i-pinned-em-all. someone understands it's not the weight that's an issue, it's the strength.

[BlastDouble35 0]

I think it would be a very close match, not an intense one tho, because Warner is not an intense wrestler. I would have to go with Peace though. Peace has matured and hit his physical peak. He was runner up as a sophmore, which is aweosme, and he placed second at sophmore nationals. But i think Warner will breeze thru 135. Peace  might have his hands full with Miller tho, who is also a very strong wrestler.

[BlastDouble35 0]

we're talkin 5 lbs..........not 15lbs. and yeah your right that would make a difference. Of coarse a 125 will lose to a 140 lol

[grappler-of-old 44]

    What I think many of you are missing is that Warner may not have had a choice in the matter.  He is the wrestler, the coach makes the decisions.  No matter what Peace or Warner wanted it is up to Oldham Co's coach as to weather he could bump up or not.

    As many of you have already mentioned, this late in the year is an unnecessary risk.  You also have to realize that Oldham already has a 140 (At least I think they do, if not stop reading  :-D), what happens to him?  Does he have to sit the bench because Warner wants to bump up?  Not very fair if you ask me.

[grapplehed 8]

Warner would step up to get the competition, win or lose.  How much competition has he had this year? Same for Peace-I am sure he would welcome the match. Not for bragging rights.  Thueneman wrestled up most of last year against the 145's to get matches. 

As far as injury, LESS of a chance against someone with experience like Peace than some knucklehead with two left feet and no experience. 

[grapplehed 8]

oh I forgot, Thanks for mentioning that Grapplerofold, Coach makes final call-I was wondering if anyone would mention that. 

[Guest wrestler92]

So you don't think one of the top ranked 125's would be able to beat a non-ranked 140?  i would completely disagree with that, I would hope that my ranked 125 could step up and beat some nonranked 140's if he had to.  There is more to it than muscle, technique is involved as well.  As someone who went 4 years through the 5 lb increment classes I wrestled up more than a few times for the better of my team and sisn't think anything about it and would beat them as well.  A top ranked 125 should be able to beat a non ranked 140 and even some ranked ones to I would think.    But as has been said, no need for Warner to do it, he is doing just fine and would like to see him after the season maybe going out of state and wrestling some national competition, both of them would be good to see that.

Northern your logic is quite poor. Why don't we simplify matters.  Let's just have 3 weight groups. 100-150, 150-200, >200. Perhaps your eyes are unable to differentiate between a 125 pounder and a 140 pounder but mine certainly can. Choose your best 125 pounder and he will get beat by an average 140 pounder every time. You try to simplify with mathematics but bottom line we are comparing 11% of lean body mass, i.e. pure muscle.  11% is an enormous difference. 15 lbs of pure muscle. How much do you think an isolated bicep muscle weighs, a pound, maybe 2 pounds. Think how much force a 2 lbs bicep can generate. Now think about 15 lbs of pure muscle.

I simply don't like the inference that Warner should bump up a weight group and jeopardize his senior year for our viewing and entertainment pleasures. Warner doesn't need any excuses. He will be a state champ as will Peace. I do think having a debate about who is better is harmless and interesting as long we don't demean one of our champions. Words like "excuses' and "blink" are unnecessary and show disrespect to these finely tuned athletes.

Peace weighing in at 135 would have his hands full with Warner at 135. Warner and Peace both at a true 140 would be equally interesting. Fortunately, Warner is not only a great athlete but appears to be smarter than most wrestling bloggers. 

[Northern 0]

Northern your logic is quite poor. Why don't we simplify matters.  Let's just have 3 weight groups. 100-150, 150-200, >200. Perhaps your eyes are unable to differentiate between a 125 pounder and a 140 pounder but mine certainly can. Choose your best 125 pounder and he will get beat by an average 140 pounder every time. You try to simplify with mathematics but bottom line we are comparing 11% of lean body mass, i.e. pure muscle.  11% is an enormous difference. 15 lbs of pure muscle. How much do you think an isolated bicep muscle weighs, a pound, maybe 2 pounds. Think how much force a 2 lbs bicep can generate. Now think about 15 lbs of pure muscle.

I simply don't like the inference that Warner should bump up a weight group and jeopardize his senior year for our viewing and entertainment pleasures. Warner doesn't need any excuses. He will be a state champ as will Peace. I do think having a debate about who is better is harmless and interesting as long we don't demean one of our champions. Words like "excuses' and "blink" are unnecessary and show disrespect to these finely tuned athletes.

Peace weighing in at 135 would have his hands full with Warner at 135. Warner and Peace both at a true 140 would be equally interesting. Fortunately, Warner is not only a great athlete but appears to be smarter than most wrestling bloggers. 

Where did I have any inference to the Warner /Peace match?

I was simply making a comment that we hear too many guys making excuses about a few pounds.  Wrestlers in the 125-145 range are not that far apart, but they will continuously use a few pounds as an excuse for losing or not wrestling their best. 

"No wonder I lost, he ate more and had at least a two pound advantage on me!"  I actually heard that excuse.

As far as Warner, he knows what is best for him.  If he felt that the challenge had an advantage - he would have taken it.  He probably was focusing on getting ready for State without the distraction of a meaningless exhibition.

[Zeus 117]

So you don't think one of the top ranked 125's would be able to beat a non-ranked 140?  i would completely disagree with that, I would hope that my ranked 125 could step up and beat some nonranked 140's if he had to.  There is more to it than muscle, technique is involved as well.  As someone who went 4 years through the 5 lb increment classes I wrestled up more than a few times for the better of my team and sisn't think anything about it and would beat them as well.  A top ranked 125 should be able to beat a non ranked 140 and even some ranked ones to I would think.    But as has been said, no need for Warner to do it, he is doing just fine and would like to see him after the season maybe going out of state and wrestling some national competition, both of them would be good to see that.

I have to agree with I-pinned-em-all.  The difference between 125 and 140 is a great deal.  The difference between the two is not the actual weight of the extra muscle but the amount of weight that extra muscle can move.  Let me ask you a question.  Would Tyler Voth be able to bump and beat Chad Scott?  I don't think so.  Scott would destroy him, and Voth is a big 125.  However the difference between one of the lower weight classes is insignificant, like 135 and 140.

With regards to the heavier classes the higher you go up in weight the less important five pounds becomes.  Think about lifting weights.  When you're doing shoulder raises with 25 lbs and you go up to 30 lbs the difference is huge.  On the other hand when you're doing squats with 300 lbs and you go up to 305 lbs you can't even tell that the extra five pounds was added.

With regards to Warner and Peace I agree with Warner's decision.  It's not like he's the returning state champ with something else to prove.  Let both win their first title before we start comparing the best of the best.  However if the coach thought that the move might help the team then I would have supported the idea.  I don't know what the score between Oldham and Ryle was but the Oldham coaches did what they did for a reason, whatever that might be.  If the two want to settle who is better then let them wrestle at a tournament after state.  Maybe that will attract more wrestlers and some crowds to local tournaments, which is exactly what this sport needs, more participation and more attention.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Does the weight really make that big of a difference? 

Golsby moved up to 160 last weekend and still won the Mustang Classic.  I was also told he only weighed in at about 149.  So he was giving up more than 10 lbs and still won handedly.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Golsby is a totally different wrestler. Holmes team consists of maybe 4 kids, none of which are even close to him in weight.  He doesn't have the daily luxury of wrestling with numerous team mates throughout the week. His only wrestling experience comes from his matches. If I were his coach and if he were allowed, I'd have him wrestling 285 pounders just to get the experience.  One can only imagine what a machine Golsby would be if he had team to wrestle with. I applaud Coach Ken Bauchman for hanging in there at  Holmes and giving this senior an opportunity to wrestle. Ken has done a great job teaching him.  Ken this BUD's for you!!!  Change that, this BUD-LIGHT is for you!!!

Weight does make a big difference in many circumstances. For Golsby, this kid is a physical stud and can easily jump up and be quite competitive. Other kids can't. Take 2 physically comparable kids( pound for pound)  with equal wrestling skills with one weighing 5 lbs more and the heavier will likely win. I've seen Sullivan weigh in at 108 and jump up and wrestle a good 119 pounder and pin the kid. I would have to say this is the exception rather than the rule.

[grapplehed 8]

so your saying that Warner lacks the skills both physically and technically to go up one weight? Goldsby is the exception? His lack of workout partners has nothing to do with him bumping up a weight. He bumped to get the competition. Come on already.  Warner is technically one of the top kids, he probably lacks some strength, (his fault).  He can bump 5 pounds and be just fine if his coach lets him.

You just proved our point with Sullivan.  Take any kid in our state, that is top tier they can compete one weight up and do just fine. 

If you take the average schlep who is losing as many as he is winning, 1st-he doesn't bump because he has the competition already.  2nd- only reason you do it is to fill a gap.

Bottom line... Warner and Peace would be great match, Warner has a style that would slow a train down. 

Peace bumps to Courtney, Thuneman-again great matches etc. etc.

[tc125 0]

That wasn't my point at all. my whole point was that five pounds is more of a difference than many people realize. some people can bump up and be just fine. but still five pounds is a tremendous difference in strength. i wrestled 130 and everyone i wrestled was way stronger than me. i go down to 125 and so far there have only been a couple people stronger than me. one of them being tyler voth. and the other being central hardin. and maybe one or two i am forgetting. so i went from being the weakest to one of the strongest. maybe i am wrong and it isnt like this with all the weights. but from my experience, it is like this.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Grapplehed, I simply suggest you once again read all of my entries on this subject. You are misquoting me and clearly have become disrailed at some point.

[grapplehed 8]

I Pinned em all,

I read your entries. 1. I agree-pound for pound, = talent, the heavier should win, but thats not the point.

Here is my point:

If you had the chance to bump 5 lbs to wrestle a better opponent, wouldn't you do it?

Beating the potential state champ a weight up would certainly look good for the college scouts.  Not just Warner and Peace but others as well.  I know most of the ones that are being scouted, a match up like that would certainly open some eyes. 

FYI-I only posted the "blink" thing because someone called me to stir the pot.  Just having fun!

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Pot stirred. Mission accomplished.

I'm also having fun. All I'm trying to do is get my 50 postings so I can be a KentuckyWrestling.com Varsity participant.

I'd love to see them wrestle. Let's just be careful not to make one of Ky's finest look weak or inferior. One could easily argue  Peace should have lost 5 lbs and wrestled Warner.  5 pounds of muscle, food and fluid can be the difference from 85% strength and 100%, winning or losing.

[hawkeyeof old 0]

ok  we have been on this sobject for quiet some time now and i can say with 100%  of being shur that ben did not blink and had it been two or three weeks ago he would have welcomed the chance to wrestle one of the best ky has to offer in b. peace but there was nothing to gain by it and it would have made a team mate sit out and  he is getting ready for the state tourney and needs to wrestle each and every one at his weight so there are no suprizes if he meets them at state and the boy from ryle has to have some skills because that is a very good prograhm and he has one of the best practice partners in the state in peace so he needed to wrestle him diferent place diferent time i know ben would love to wrestle brian  it would be a great match i am shore now lets get ready for state

[wrestlewatcher 3]

Peace should have lost 5 lbs and wrestled Warner.  5 pounds of muscle, food and fluid can be the difference from 85% strength and 100%, winning or losing.

That is ridiculous.  He would not have been able to realistically do that with the weight loss plan unless it was something he had planned out weeks in advance.  I'm not suggesting that Warner should have bumped either.  I will tell you that Peace bumps up to get a good match every chance he gets.  So his not cutting weight had nothing to do with ducking competition. 

[tc125 0]

That is ridiculous.  He would not have been able to realistically do that with the weight loss plan unless it was something he had planned out weeks in advance.  I'm not suggesting that Warner should have bumped either.  I will tell you that Peace bumps up to get a good match every chance he gets.  So his not cutting weight had nothing to do with ducking competition. 

i don't think he was saying he ducked warner, but merely he was just stating another side to the arguement.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Good job tc125, you are exactly right. I know Peace, he's not afraid of anyone and I certainly don't think he ducked Warner.  But it is comical how others become defensive when the other side of the argument is made. Likewise, I don't believe Warner ducked Peace either.

[ARealWrestlingFanatic 1]

I am amazed that so many messages have been posted discussing a hypothetical matchup that never occurred because it was never meant to be.  What if Caleb Wood wrestled Matt Eck.  What if John Wolsiefer decided to wrestling Mark Jones.  Why waste your time.  Talk about matches that are actually going to happen.

[penguinskillkids 0]

I am amazed that so many messages have been posted discussing a hypothetical matchup that never occurred because it was never meant to be.  What if Caleb Wood wrestled Matt Eck.  What if John Wolsiefer decided to wrestling Mark Jones.  Why waste your time.  Talk about matches that are actually going to happen.

I bet Wolsifier would beat Jones, haha.

[ARealWrestlingFanatic 1]

I bet Wolsifier would beat Jones, haha.

Really funny.  But I agree.  He is an animal.