KWCA State Tournament

[Nike Man 292]

As mentioned in a different thread by firemans34, why not look at a KWCA State Tournament. Why hasn't this option been explored? I have actully voiced this opinion in the past to some coaches, but Inhabe never really ran with it or got a feel from a large majority. In my opinion the middle school coaches association runs a much nicer State Tournament with the emphasis on the KIDS! The trophies and medals are much better not to mention the finals singlets. Why do we have to wrestle a KHSAA State Tournament? Why can't we separate ourselves? I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet that the majority of high school coaches would be in favor of this. To my knowledge, the KHSAA doesn't sanction any of our in season tournaments anyway. So why let them make money and piggyback off of the hard work that these coaches and athletes put in on a yearly basis? The medals suck. The finals are lackluster. And a coach couldn't find a decent to meal to save his life!! Lol. We as a coaches association could keep the money in house to help better our athletes. Possibly pay for state wide camps and clinicians. Almost anything would be better than what we have! I for one would be a huge supporter of a KWCA State Tournament. Let the KHSAA stick to their precious basketball and football State Tournaments. 

[Zeus 117]

I would support the idea.

[firemans34 33]

I will donate time, treasure, and talent to the effort.

[zaniac 11]

Build it and they will come.

[rjs4470 103]

Sounds like a great idea, but.....

1.  You'll need 100% buy in from all schools.  Not as easy as it sounds.  Could lead to two different "State Champs" which wouldn't be good for anyone.

2.  If you don't get 100% support, you stand the chance of small programs who didn't (or weren't allowed) to go the KWCA route, possibly going away and dropping wrestling....also not good

3.  If enough schools dropped, and the KHSAA state tourney becoming a non issue, you could see the KHSAA dropping wrestling to an activity, which would likely result in more schools dropping the sport.  Not good....

There's much more to consider, but to me, the possible bad, would far outweigh the good.  Are nice medals, brackets and a tournament that gets done 2 hours earlier worth the damage that this could cause the sport??

[grappler-of-old 44]

     Being sanctioned by the KHSAA is a big issue for most schools.  Insurance is the biggest.  I know that USA wrestling can be insured but that is a separate cost.  Many schools would not go for this.  Even though the Middle school coaches do a good job.

Do they monitor the kids grades for participation?

Do they monitor the kids grade level for participation?

Do they monitor the kids for residence for participation at a certain school?

Would you then have club teams?

I for one would NOT be in favor of a KWCA state tournament.  

The emphasis is competition, I agree that the finals were horrible in how they were run.  But I don't believe that we would have anything close to the tournament if it was not sanctioned by the state. 

[Nike Man 292]

6 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

Sounds like a great idea, but.....

1.  You'll need 100% buy in from all schools.  Not as easy as it sounds.  Could lead to two different "State Champs" which wouldn't be good for anyone.

2.  If you don't get 100% support, you stand the chance of small programs who didn't (or weren't allowed) to go the KWCA route, possibly going away and dropping wrestling....also not good

3.  If enough schools dropped, and the KHSAA state tourney becoming a non issue, you could see the KHSAA dropping wrestling to an activity, which would likely result in more schools dropping the sport.  Not good....

There's much more to consider, but to me, the possible bad, would far outweigh the good.  Are nice medals, brackets and a tournament that gets done 2 hours earlier worth the damage that this could cause the sport??

Great points and I can definitely see where you are coming from. But, here is where I'm at..

1. We already have multiple team champs in the State Duals. We will also have multiple team champs anytime that a big school wins the individual State Championship.

2/3. I haven't heard of any middle school programs dropping wrestling due to not being part of KHSAA. Why would high schools be any different? The middle school association has done a wonderful job growing the sport. Although it is the ultimate goal for the KHSAA to overtake all middle school sports, to my knowledge they haven't....yet.

The KHSAA is like a union, you pay your dues, keep your mouth shut, and you won't have any problems. 

 

[Nike Man 292]

5 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

     Being sanctioned by the KHSAA is a big issue for most schools.  Insurance is the biggest.  I know that USA wrestling can be insured but that is a separate cost.  Many schools would not go for this.  Even though the Middle school coaches do a good job.

Do they monitor the kids grades for participation?

Do they monitor the kids grade level for participation?

Do they monitor the kids for residence for participation at a certain school?

Would you then have club teams?

I for one would NOT be in favor of a KWCA state tournament.  

The emphasis is competition, I agree that the finals were horrible in how they were run.  But I don't believe that we would have anything close to the tournament if it was not sanctioned by the state. 

GOO, once again I see where you are coming from and I understand your concerns. Here are some questions to you. Are you familiar with the middle school association? Have you been to a Middle School State Tournament? Are you familiar with the middle school association members and bylaws? I don't ask these questions to be a smart a??, I ask because it is important to know. The middle school association is a well oiled machine that has their ducks in a row. Their bylaws address each of your concerns specifically. I think if you did a little research, you may be fairly impressed.

[rjs4470 103]

8 minutes ago, Nike Man said:

Great points and I can definitely see where you are coming from. But, here is where I'm at..

1. We already have multiple team champs in the State Duals. We will also have multiple team champs anytime that a big school wins the individual State Championship.

2/3. I haven't heard of any middle school programs dropping wrestling due to not being part of KHSAA. Why would high schools be any different? The middle school association has done a wonderful job growing the sport. Although it is the ultimate goal for the KHSAA to overtake all middle school sports, to my knowledge they haven't....yet.

The KHSAA is like a union, you pay your dues, keep your mouth shut, and you won't have any problems. 

 

See Grappler of Old post above for a more detailed explanation than what I gave.  In short, I can guarantee, without KHSAA governing wrestling, there will be quite a few schools that drop the sport, for the reason GOO gave.  It almost happened to the Kenton County Schools when the KHSAA first declared they were taking over Middle School sports.  Woodland, Twenhofel, and SVA almost lost their programs.  And it put the nail in Turkeyfoot's program as their administration still isn't on board for the added requirements of wrestling.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Yes I have been to the Middle school state tourney.  Not so very long ago when GOO Jr. was there.  The one major flaw in that tourney is that some kids can't wrestle in the medal round. (Which happened to GOO Jr.).  The only reason schools are ok with USA in middle school is because there is no state governing body for middle school sports.  

The 1st question every AD will ask is why are you not competing in the KHSAA format?  They would then demand that you enter the KHSAA format since the school is already part of the KHSAA.  How many basketball teams are not part of KHSAA.  There are a few but almost all participate in KHSAA.

I am not sure how long you have been around but what we have now is 10 times better than what we had when I participated.  Say what you will about Tackett but after he took over wrestling it grew by leaps and bounds.  The state tourney no longer was held at a high school, the referee's were more orgainized.  

If your gonna get upset about the finals not being by itself, and leave the KHSAA because of it.  Try wrestling on a friday at a high school (That is holding classes while the tourney is going on).  And to top it off the school holding the event in most years did not even have a wrestling team.  

I do want the medal rounds changed to a face off and done alone.  But lets not toss the baby out with the bath water. 

[Nike Man 292]

Lol! I wrestled in the State Tournament when it was held at Atherton, it was a joke for sure. When they stepped up to the Civic Center in Frankfort, it finally seemed like a "real" State Tournament. But, in my opinion, since we went to a 32 man watered down bracket and then moved it to a horse barn, we moved ten steps back in the wrong direction. Every year it is compromise after compromise with the KHSAA. In the letter that Mr. Canter shared from the KHSAA on another thread, it stated that one of the reasons we wrestled the 3rd, 5th, and 7th place matches at the same time as the finals was to recognize all the kids. At what point do we quit sheltering these young men from the "everyone wins" mentality? If we can't teach this to them by the time they are in high school, we as a society are in big BIG trouble! 

[grappler-of-old 44]

I agree there.  One of my favorite commercials is when the dad takes his kids participation trophy and changes it to championship trophy.  

I was not in favor of the 32 man bracket but it seems to have worked.  I think the main problem here is that KHSAA is trying to keep it a 2 day tourney.  I think once they figure it out then everything will be OK.  Experimentation is what finaly gets the results that are needed.  I HOPE that is what is going on here. 

[RTRBURN 15]

Why don't we request the KHSAA board to a Spring coaches meeting...not the committee. Lets get this out in the open, not hide behind emails. If your in the position to make decisions then your in position to hear the complaints. Somebody has to be held accountable. Lets push this meeting. Don't let them say "We will only meet with selected coaches" because they will choose who attends.

Also lets get some coaches on the board....not the committee. What seats are coming up soon?

[385 109]

Is there no way to have the best of both worlds? We take care of finals, medals, procedures etc. while appeasing the mighty khsaa? It feels like racketeering honestly. They're holding our sport hostage. 

[rjs4470 103]

12 hours ago, Nike Man said:

12 minutes ago, 385 said:

Is there no way to have the best of both worlds? We take care of finals, medals, procedures etc. while appeasing the mighty khsaa? It feels like racketeering honestly. They're holding our sport hostage. 

Lol! I wrestled in the State Tournament when it was held at Atherton, it was a joke for sure. When they stepped up to the Civic Center in Frankfort, it finally seemed like a "real" State Tournament. But, in my opinion, since we went to a 32 man watered down bracket and then moved it to a horse barn, we moved ten steps back in the wrong direction. Every year it is compromise after compromise with the KHSAA. In the letter that Mr. Canter shared from the KHSAA on another thread, it stated that one of the reasons we wrestled the 3rd, 5th, and 7th place matches at the same time as the finals was to recognize all the kids. At what point do we quit sheltering these young men from the "everyone wins" mentality? If we can't teach this to them by the time they are in high school, we as a society are in big BIG trouble! 

I know to many it feels like it's wrestling is low man on the totem pole, but honestly, our situation is no worse than the average sport.  People complain just as much, if not more about Basketball and Football.  No matter what gets done, not everyone is going to be happy.  Doesn't mean improvements can't be made.  Again, read up on how girls softball is handled, and trust me, you'll feel a lot better about our situation.

[Zeus 117]

13 hours ago, Nike Man said:

Lol! I wrestled in the State Tournament when it was held at Atherton, it was a joke for sure. When they stepped up to the Civic Center in Frankfort, it finally seemed like a "real" State Tournament. But, in my opinion, since we went to a 32 man watered down bracket and then moved it to a horse barn, we moved ten steps back in the wrong direction. Every year it is compromise after compromise with the KHSAA. In the letter that Mr. Canter shared from the KHSAA on another thread, it stated that one of the reasons we wrestled the 3rd, 5th, and 7th place matches at the same time as the finals was to recognize all the kids. At what point do we quit sheltering these young men from the "everyone wins" mentality? If we can't teach this to them by the time they are in high school, we as a society are in big BIG trouble! 

Damn Nike Man, I didn't realize you were THAT old hahaha!

[depperschmidt 140]

yea, that's way before NIKE gym shoes.

[grappler-of-old 44]

The only good thing at Atherton was the drop down scoreboard they used during the finals. 

I remember one match where I ran into the folded in bleachers during a match.  Man it was cramped in there. 

What are you talking about Depperschmidt.  Was Atherton even built when you wrestled. 

[Nike Man 292]

1 hour ago, Zeus said:

Damn Nike Man, I didn't realize you were THAT old hahaha!

Ouch!! That hurt just as bad as when I broke my hip! Lol

[depperschmidt 140]

I remember Atherton was built on the ruins of the coliseum after removing the lions, The Chariot track was still out back though. And the whole region stayed at the Ramada.

[heavy83 15]

I remember the Ramada wow what memories

[BadMadDad 16]

I too am old enough to remember and wrestle at Atherton for state. Yes it was cramped, yes it was old, but that place had so much energy in it. I bet the old timers are with me on that fact.