youth state results

[BoyMom3 0]

I can't believe what I am seeing on here!  I've never heard such whining before in my life!  Shouldn't our sole purpose be to grow our state wrestling program?  The youth tournament is such an experience for our younger wrestlers.  It gives them a taste of what a large tournament feels like and, if lucky, what it feels like to stand on the podium.  For some youth, that tournament gives them the confidence they need and makes them strive harder to improve their skills.  Is a youth tournament title going to get them a college scholarship?  No.  What it will do is give them that boost to work harder and to become a great wrestler in the future.  Shouldn't that be the sole purpose?  The more we encourage our youth, the better our state program will be in the years to come. 

[plantmanky1 58]

Just for reference there are 21 school districts in Kentucky that Middle School is 5th through 8th grade.  (just looked it up)

 

How many of those districts have youth wrestling I have no idea. 

[sbfraz 8]

Just for reference there are 21 school districts in Kentucky that Middle School is 5th through 8th grade. (just looked it up)

How many of those districts have youth wrestling I have no idea.

Exactly, so saying the MS brackets are full of youth wrestlers is a mute point. Of course they are, but many of those same youth wrestlers are also middle school kids. You would have to go through the brackets and find a 13 year old before you found a champion who is not a youth wrestler. After looking at the brackets, it seems like the first bracket with a champion who is not youth eligible is 98. 105 is technically a youth wrestler, so according to the logic being given, MS weight classes shouldn't begin before 100 pounds because otherwise the brackets are full of "youth" wrestlers. 6 of the 15 brackets have champions who are youth eligible but all of them are actually middle school kids.

The brackets are full of youth wrestlers because well over 50% of actual middle school kids would still be youth eligible with the current birth years in place. That is the reason you can't conpare youth in MS with MS wrestlers competing at HS. There is no situation where a HS freshman can still be eligible to compete in MS, but more than half of our middle school students in the state of KY are technically eligible to compete in our youth state tournament based on age. Apples and oranges.

[raidercoach 51]

Exactly, so saying the MS brackets are full of youth wrestlers is a mute point. Of course they are, but many of those same youth wrestlers are also middle school kids. You would have to go through the brackets and find a 13 year old before you found a champion who is not a youth wrestler. After looking at the brackets, it seems like the first bracket with a champion who is not youth eligible is 98. 105 is technically a youth wrestler, so according to the logic being given, MS weight classes shouldn't begin before 100 pounds because otherwise the brackets are full of "youth" wrestlers. 6 of the 15 brackets have champions who are youth eligible but all of them are actually middle school kids.

The brackets are full of youth wrestlers because well over 50% of actual middle school kids would still be youth eligible with the current birth years in place. That is the reason you can't conpare youth in MS with MS wrestlers competing at HS. There is no situation where a HS freshman can still be eligible to compete in MS, but more than half of our middle school students in the state of KY are technically eligible to compete in our youth state tournament based on age. Apples and oranges.

It is not a moot point....you are actually making the case for these youth wrestlers to be able to wrestle at youth state if they place at middle school. The fact that so many of the kids from those weights are youth aged demonstrates how ridiculous it is to keep them from wrestling at the youth state.

Let's call it what it is, this rule was implemented to keep our elite youth kids from going to youth state and pounding other youth kids. The reality is, all of these weight classes at middle school are filled with youth kids, so all you are doing is arbitrarily cutting off the top 4 and saying you are "too good" and allowing the other kids who placed lower a chance at a gold. If we are so concerned about these top 4 from pounding other youth kids at the youth state, where is the uproar at middle school? Because in many cases at these weight classes, we are talking about the exact same kids pounding on the exact same other kids. With this logic, it would make way more sense to have a rule that if you place at high school state as a middle school kid, you shouldn't be able to wrestle at middle school state because 106 in high school is filled with mostly high school kids.

It seems to me that some are trying with this rule to make the middle school tournament more prestigious and more competitive while keeping the youth tournament just a walk in the park. In the long run, that will hurt the youth state tournament. If our best kids can't get any competition or are not permitted to wrestle at the youth state, then we are systematically removing any prestige the kids have for that tournament. Right now, it's a badge of honor for these kids to skip the youth state because they placed at middle school. We have convinced them that the youth state is beneath them. That was NEVER the case before we implemented this rule. All of our stud youth wrestlers showed up to the youth state regardless if they placed at middle school or not. All we have done is hurt the reputation of this tournament with the kids.

[sbfraz 8]

Raidercoach, I'm not arguing about whether they should be allowed to participate. I honestly don't think it's a big deal either way. My point is that the argument against the decision cannot be founded in comparing this situation with MS kids wrestling HS. That point is completely invalid for the very reason I stated.

Honestly, if we want youth state to be appealing to the elite level kids, then we need to use USA divisions and weight classes like the rest of the country, but again, dead horse!

[MLee 68]

I can't believe what I am seeing on here!  I've never heard such whining before in my life!  Shouldn't our sole purpose be to grow our state wrestling program?  The youth tournament is such an experience for our younger wrestlers.  It gives them a taste of what a large tournament feels like and, if lucky, what it feels like to stand on the podium.  For some youth, that tournament gives them the confidence they need and makes them strive harder to improve their skills.  Is a youth tournament title going to get them a college scholarship?  No.  What it will do is give them that boost to work harder and to become a great wrestler in the future.  Shouldn't that be the sole purpose?  The more we encourage our youth, the better our state program will be in the years to come. 

I hardly think a good debate among people who put countless hours into making our state better should be considered "whining." 

 

Dividing brackets up by GRADE for youth has always seemed silly to me.  What does grade have to do w/ physical development?  Nothing.  BIRTH YEAR does.  What if a kid was 14 years old and in the 5th grade?  Should he be allowed to wrestle in our youth tournament?  Of course not.

 

This is why the youth tournaments are sorted the way they are.  It is much more fair...smaller age and weight diiference.  Sbfraz, you seem to be making our point.  If the smaller weight classes are close to 100% youth aged kids, then why exclude them from a youth tournament??  Because someome thinks that placing in the top 4 in our MS tournament has miraculously made these kids superior to the youth kids.  Broken record....shouldn't this decision be left with the individuals it impacts, their parents and coaches?  I guess the few coaches that showed up and voted are better suited to make those decisions.  

 

I have a great youth kid that took 2nd to a wrestler who was ranked top 3 all year in MS.  The MS kid didn't place top 4.  We lost a close 2-0 match.  BIG DEAL!  It was a great experience.  He got to stand on the podium and think about what he needs to do to get better.  In addition, I received an email from a parent of a kid who won 1 match all year!  He was hoping he would win one down state, but failed to do so.  She thanked me for our coach's efforts and pledged to send him to more off-season events to get him better next year.  They didn't get scared off.   

 

We handed out medals to almost 50% of the wrestlers that showed up.  Since we don't have qualifiers, that is almost 50% of the entire state!  Isn't that enough? If not, lets hand out more, but don't water down the competition out of fear some kid and their parents will quit.  They won't, but if they do, are these the type of families we need in our sport?  Let them play basketball and earn as many participation ribbons they want from their local YMCA. 

 

The other point worth noting...this the end of the year tournament.  My newbies have been through a few "beginner tournaments" before they wrestled in more challenging tournaments.  The parents and kids were forewarned.  We told them not to expect great results.  Some decide in the first few weeks, wrestling is not for them.  I believe we started with 85 kids and ended w/ under 50.  By the end of the season, these kids and their families understand the sport.  We won't run them away if little Johnny doesn't make the podium. 

[raidercoach 51]

Raidercoach, I'm not arguing about whether they should be allowed to participate. I honestly don't think it's a big deal either way. My point is that the argument against the decision cannot be founded in comparing this situation with MS kids wrestling HS. That point is completely invalid for the very reason I stated.

Honestly, if we want youth state to be appealing to the elite level kids, then we need to use USA divisions and weight classes like the rest of the country, but again, dead horse!

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I agree with you 100% that we have more "youth" kids wrestling at those weights in MS than we have MS kids wrestling HS...that's obvious. I just look at that differently. To me, that just supports the case against the rule to prevent these kids from wrestling.

At the end of the day, I just don't like under any circumstances creating rules that take away opportunities away from our kids to compete. That's what it all boils down to. Give the kids the choice and I bet you most will choose to wrestle versus sitting at home or watching from the stands.

[MLee 68]

Raidercoach, I'm not arguing about whether they should be allowed to participate. I honestly don't think it's a big deal either way. My point is that the argument against the decision cannot be founded in comparing this situation with MS kids wrestling HS. That point is completely invalid for the very reason I stated.

Honestly, if we want youth state to be appealing to the elite level kids, then we need to use USA divisions and weight classes like the rest of the country, but again, dead horse!

My original proposal was to have novice and experienced brackets.  Novice in the morning, 8 man brackets, remote weigh-ins, same as it was in years past.  2nd session, adopt set weight classes (USA would work), weigh in morning of, pre-register on Track, 16+ man brackets.  I still like this the best, but this year's tournament was a lot of fun. 

 

Regardless of what we do, I personally appreciate others opinions and input.  We can get heated on these message boards, but it usually between all the people that are passionate about the sport.  Our youth and MS kids are looking great! 

[JC1 4]

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[Braves coach 82]

One last post. I couldn't resist!!

I wrestled in states where quality was more important than quantity. If you guys want to make our state tournament legit then let's use the regionals a qualifier and all age appropriate kids can compete. Yes a smaller state tournament that could be held at lets say Grant County High School. The Come one Come all mentality is fine if our state tourney is about Money and exposure but if you want it to be a true State Tournament then show up to vote in the spring and let's make the proper changes. I'm all in !!!

[EAST 46]

Here is how this rule of not letting middle school placers came about. Back when Stan Martin was the president (That's a long time ago) the main goal of the association was to grow youth wrestling. As the years past it did grow we moved from holding the youth state meet in a high school gym to the arena in Frankort and now at Montgomery county. For years people complained about not having 16 man brackets but the numbers didn't make sense and the sport was continuing to grow so why change what was working. As ideas were presented at the state association meetings on how to continue the growth of the sport I brought up the idea of if a youth wrestler places at the middle school state they would not be eligible to wrestle at the youth state. It was voted on and passed.

Last year after looking at who placed in the top six at middle school and who didn't that were youth eligible it was changed to the top four placers. Now agree or disagree I can say this was done to help grow the sport. At the time the idea was proposed my son had placed at the middle school state prior to the meeting that this idea was brought up and voted on and he was youth eligible it kept him from competing for the next two years at the youth level so they was no personal agenda.

 

Now Raider Coach has a valid point he and I have talked about it more than once. Over the last two years the numbers haven't changed that much maybe even down a little that was one of the reasons that the 16 man brackets were implemented to see if that would help in growth by making it more competitive more significant if you place, however you want to look at it. The numbers may have not changed much in the past two years but the level of competition has the skill level of youth wrestling has grown with the exposure the kids have gotten through Team KY and wrestling in the off season ect. So now maybe that idea needs to be looked at again with sixteen man brackets and better competition maybe a change is needed.

 

As it has been said on this forum more than once if you don't come to the meetings to share your ideas on how to better the sport what do you expect. The past administration has done a done a great job of listening and implementing ideas brought up at the meetings and I'm sure that will continue with the new leaders.  

 

Coach Wheeler

[JDamron 4]

Yes but high school freshman are not eligible to wrestle in middle school competitions even if they are of age!!!!! Why? Because they are not in middle school. 7th & 8th graders are not in elementary school and therefore should not be allowed to wrestle in youth tournaments.

This is youth wrestling not elementary wrestling. A 12 year old 7th grader has NO advantage over a 12 year old 6th grader. So, until it is changed to elementary wrestling instead of youth wrestling you have no point.

[MLee 68]

One last post. I couldn't resist!!

I wrestled in states where quality was more important than quantity. If you guys want to make our state tournament legit then let's use the regionals a qualifier and all age appropriate kids can compete. Yes a smaller state tournament that could be held at lets say Grant County High School. The Come one Come all mentality is fine if our state tourney is about Money and exposure but if you want it to be a true State Tournament then show up to vote in the spring and let's make the proper changes. I'm all in !!!

You wrestled before??

 

This is certainly where we're headed, but the # 's have to make sense.  We need some of the regions to find ways to grow if we use regional qualifiers. 

 

I like the Tournament of Champions quailifier format.  Have a few tournaments scattered around the state.  They need them to be sanctioned and ran the same way.  If the kids place top 4 in one of those tournaments, you're eligible to participate in the state.  It would also encourage more "in-state" wrestling. 

[BoyMom3 0]

I hardly think a good debate among people who put countless hours into making our state better should be considered "whining." 

 

Dividing brackets up by GRADE for youth has always seemed silly to me.  What does grade have to do w/ physical development?  Nothing.  BIRTH YEAR does.  What if a kid was 14 years old and in the 5th grade?  Should he be allowed to wrestle in our youth tournament?  Of course not.

 

This is why the youth tournaments are sorted the way they are.  It is much more fair...smaller age and weight diiference.  Sbfraz, you seem to be making our point.  If the smaller weight classes are close to 100% youth aged kids, then why exclude them from a youth tournament??  Because someome thinks that placing in the top 4 in our MS tournament has miraculously made these kids superior to the youth kids.  Broken record....shouldn't this decision be left with the individuals it impacts, their parents and coaches?  I guess the few coaches that showed up and voted are better suited to make those decisions.  

 

I have a great youth kid that took 2nd to a wrestler who was ranked top 3 all year in MS.  The MS kid didn't place top 4.  We lost a close 2-0 match.  BIG DEAL!  It was a great experience.  He got to stand on the podium and think about what he needs to do to get better.  In addition, I received an email from a parent of a kid who won 1 match all year!  He was hoping he would win one down state, but failed to do so.  She thanked me for our coach's efforts and pledged to send him to more off-season events to get him better next year.  They didn't get scared off.   

 

We handed out medals to almost 50% of the wrestlers that showed up.  Since we don't have qualifiers, that is almost 50% of the entire state!  Isn't that enough? If not, lets hand out more, but don't water down the competition out of fear some kid and their parents will quit.  They won't, but if they do, are these the type of families we need in our sport?  Let them play basketball and earn as many participation ribbons they want from their local YMCA. 

 

The other point worth noting...this the end of the year tournament.  My newbies have been through a few "beginner tournaments" before they wrestled in more challenging tournaments.  The parents and kids were forewarned.  We told them not to expect great results.  Some decide in the first few weeks, wrestling is not for them.  I believe we started with 85 kids and ended w/ under 50.  By the end of the season, these kids and their families understand the sport.  We won't run them away if little Johnny doesn't make the podium. 

 

Some concerns are valid points, others not as much.  The tournament is called a YOUTH tournament.  To me, this means that it is a tournament for our new youth to show what they have.  I was pleased to find out that the brackets went from 8-man to 16-man this year.  This meant a bigger challenge to our youngest members.  I also want to commend those that worked hard this year to do placement for the older kids brackets.  I know they have put a lot of time and effort into this event.  Hence, where my whining comment comes into play.  A lot of people worked hard to make this tournament stronger this year.  I feel as if the first comment anyone should say is "Thank you" to all those who gave up countless hours to make the tourney run so smoothly!  I have read everyone's comments.  Most of them are valid, but you should first thank all involved before you hack it to pieces.  I, just like the rest of you, want Kentucky wrestling to grow all children into great wrestlers, not just the ones you feel are top dogs. 

[JDamron 4]

You wrestled before??

This is certainly where we're headed, but the # 's have to make sense. We need some of the regions to find ways to grow if we use regional qualifiers.

I like the Tournament of Champions quailifier format. Have a few tournaments scattered around the state. They need them to be sanctioned and ran the same way. If the kids place top 4 in one of those tournaments, you're eligible to participate in the state. It would also encourage more "in-state" wrestling.

I think we continue to focus on getting more kids involved in the sport. Not only on a state level but a local level. IMO, qualifiers for a youth state tournament is a turn in the wrong direction. I think the state tournament is a great experience for a young wrestler. And a experience they should all have.

[MLee 68]

I think we continue to focus on getting more kids involved in the sport. Not only on a state level but a local level. IMO, qualifiers for a youth state tournament is a turn in the wrong direction. I think the state tournament is a great experience for a young wrestler. And a experience they should all have.

I agree 100%.  If and when we're ready to have qualifiers (I'd say around 1500 kids), I would prefer the TOC format over regionals.  Kind of hard to have regionals at youth when some regions have 20 kids and others have 350. 

[JDamron 4]

Plus, I would think we would have to go to weight classes instead if the 10% rule.the way things are right now you can wrestle at region and be in a different bracket at state. Or not wrestle at region and wrestle at state. Seen both scenarios this weekend.

[MLee 68]

Here is how this rule of not letting middle school placers came about. Back when Stan Martin was the president (That's a long time ago) the main goal of the association was to grow youth wrestling. As the years past it did grow we moved from holding the youth state meet in a high school gym to the arena in Frankort and now at Montgomery county. For years people complained about not having 16 man brackets but the numbers didn't make sense and the sport was continuing to grow so why change what was working. As ideas were presented at the state association meetings on how to continue the growth of the sport I brought up the idea of if a youth wrestler places at the middle school state they would not be eligible to wrestle at the youth state. It was voted on and passed.

Last year after looking at who placed in the top six at middle school and who didn't that were youth eligible it was changed to the top four placers. Now agree or disagree I can say this was done to help grow the sport. At the time the idea was proposed my son had placed at the middle school state prior to the meeting that this idea was brought up and voted on and he was youth eligible it kept him from competing for the next two years at the youth level so they was no personal agenda.

 

Now Raider Coach has a valid point he and I have talked about it more than once. Over the last two years the numbers haven't changed that much maybe even down a little that was one of the reasons that the 16 man brackets were implemented to see if that would help in growth by making it more competitive more significant if you place, however you want to look at it. The numbers may have not changed much in the past two years but the level of competition has the skill level of youth wrestling has grown with the exposure the kids have gotten through Team KY and wrestling in the off season ect. So now maybe that idea needs to be looked at again with sixteen man brackets and better competition maybe a change is needed.

 

As it has been said on this forum more than once if you don't come to the meetings to share your ideas on how to better the sport what do you expect. The past administration has done a done a great job of listening and implementing ideas brought up at the meetings and I'm sure that will continue with the new leaders.  

 

Coach Wheeler

You are really showing your age now....

 

More medals works better w/ retaining kids, not growing the #'s. By tournament time, the #'s are already established.  How does giving out more medals increase #'s?  It doesn't.  It helps retain the kids we have, but we are having a growth issue more than a retainment issue.   

 

Growth comes from coaches that are committed.  How did Grant County get to 2nd overall and 1st in DII in 3 years? From Coach Messerly and his staff.  They've worked their butts off and built a great program.  The question becomes..."how do we get more guys like that?"           

[Braves coach 82]

This all started with the pounders ppw metric. I will give you the Division 2 Championship Trophy.

You can pick it up in Grant County. We practice Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. 6-8. See you soon !!

[JDamron 4]

Disagree, I believe medals, especially at state, do help growth. We (Martin County) have started to have some success at the state tournament. We won divison 3 last year and we seen a big influx in our numbers, especially for a county this size. Now we did not just set back and it happened. We publicized our success, we printed T shirts, we held camps but nothing can recruit like success. When little Jimmy sees little Johnny doing good little Jimmy might decide to give it a shot. Imagine your 8 years old and your buddy is in the newspaper for winning the state wrestling championship. He's got a big trophy, his coaches have their arm around him, he's got a big smile on his face. THAT makes kids want to try things. So yeah, I believe medals do help with your growth.

This all started with the pounders ppw metric. I will give you the Division 2 Championship Trophy.

You can pick it up in Grant County. We practice Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. 6-8. See you soon !!

You guys did a great job!!

[MLee 68]

Medals are a selling point, but someone needs to do the selling!  Think about it, by the time the medals have been handed out, our #'s have been established.  Maybe there is a small % of kids that start wrestling the following year because they've seen a medal somewhere.  But every time we've seen a surge in #'s, there was a committed coach behind the scenes recruiting at football fields, schools, etc. 

[EAST 46]

Medals are a selling point, but someone needs to do the selling!  Think about it, by the time the medals have been handed out, our #'s have been established.  Maybe there is a small % of kids that start wrestling the following year because they've seen a medal somewhere.  But every time we've seen a surge in #'s, there was a committed coach behind the scenes recruiting at football fields, schools, etc. 

Your absolutely right with eight man brackets more medals were given out and the numbers stayed the same. So now 16 man brackets see what happens but the point about committed coaches and parents is where it is going to come from. That's why I push the point of coming to the meetings sharing ideas make changes.

 

To give a number example to help address qualifiers three years ago we had approx a 950 -1000 wrestlers in the state the CInn area had 2,500 in the surrounding area. The number mentioned by Matt of 1,500 is what we figured out several years ago based upon what areas kids were coming from that would make sense with going to qualifiers.

[westKYwrestling 2]

This all started with the pounders ppw metric. I will give you the Division 2 Championship Trophy.

You can pick it up in Grant County. We practice Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. 6-8. See you soon !!

enjoy that trophy y'all did a very good job. Also had a high percentage of placers. You earned that trophy.

[REscalera 189]

Wow! The Cincy area has 2500 youth wrestlers?

[plantmanky1 58]

Wow! The Cincy area has 2500 youth wrestlers?

IMO that number is too low,  I assume that is the entry number to the citywide tournament they have every year.