Youth Holiday Classic - 12/16/12

[Chris Duke 284]

It would be great if someone would try this. Have club weigh ins like we do now and put the wrestlers into true weight classes. If you do this and spot check 10% of the wrestlers it might make a lot more people happy. A 16 man bracket would also be a nice touch.

[sbfraz 8]

We've been to very large youth tournaments in other states that ran very smoothly and had weigh ins. Wrestlers weigh in at practice, register on track wrestling and weigh in again just before the tournament. There is a rebracketing fee for kids who don't make weight. The fee is usually double the tournament fee which strongly discourages people from fudging anything.

[Bluesdad 73]

Ok so who's coming to the JC touney? Should be a good one.

[Ranger123 43]

Poobah didn't go anywhere. I try to be a productive part of our wrestling community and participate here apart from just arguing with others as you seem to enjoy. Thanks mlee for showing at least one of you can have an adult discussion with someone on this site.

Raider I will give you all the credit for 1991. I'm not living in the 90s myself. I prefer the present. Speaking of the present. How many middle school teams in Boone co are better today than they were when you "took over" at raiders. I would venture to say about ZERO.

[IWIN 49]

Raidercoach, just went back and read previous posts a little closer. As the ESPN segment says, " C'MON MAN!" Listen, I can't even pin point who u are, but we all probably have wins/losses to other coaches on here. I can go back and pick at coaches I whooped, but what good is that? It's obvious that u and Ranger are on 2 different pages, but does anyone really remember or care what happend back in the day? I'm not in the great war of the Northern KY schools, but its obvious to the rest of the state that all of u guys (in NKY) are doing it, and doing it very effectively. Let's just ALL work together to figure out the best avenue for our kids.

Ranger, I've got nothing but mad respect for you and your middle school program. I'm glad that Kentucky has an ambassador of the sport like you. You don't know who I am by my screen name, but you know who I am. You and I have been on the opposite side of issues and opposing Coaches. At the end of the day, wrestling in Kentucky is better off because of the contributions that u have made. That being said, I'm still going to strive to catch up to you and your program again, then try to beat you. Lol! As a wise man once said, don't mistake my kindness for weakness.

[Ranger123 43]

Iwin I'm with you 100%. We need more coaches thinking that way. I love to see teams rise up and challenge the established programs (that's why I hate big school small school state duals). And I'll do my part to help any kid in any program. I spent time training more kids outside of my team this summer than on my team. In fact just yesterday I had a raider parent approach me in the stands and shake my hand and show his appreciation for working with his son as we prepared for team ky. I know that raising the bar for everyone will only help my kids to reach their highest goals.

[Bearcats Coach 94]

IWIN, I don't know who you are, but I agree with you. Wrestling in this state has grown so much in the past 15+ years, it amazes me. I'm glad we have as many coaches that we do trying to make this sport better.

I believe that most are in it for the right reason. MLEE has done some very good things with the Raider program. When he first took over, I remember talking with him about the direction he wanted to take that program. It good to have change, or atleast give it a try. If it doesn't work out, then you can always fall back on what was working before.

Raidercoach, I know you mean well. When someone makes a suggestion or gives an opinion,.....it is just that. Doesn't mean you have to listen to it or do what they say. It's kind of like what I tell my wrestlers when they go to different camps or train under different coaches in the off season, "take what you like, what works for you and the rest you can throw out the door and move on from it".

I've had many battles back in the day with many coaches on here regarding wrestling each other. Heck me and Ranger have had a few run ins. But today, I have a great deal of respect for him. We have become good friends and have spent crazy amount of hours in the off season training / working with kids from many different programs and traveling to get deal of tournaments together. When we are coaching against each other, sure we both want to win. Thats what its all about people. However the bigger picture "IN MY OPINION" is building relationships, making our sport grow and help guide these young men.

[Ranger123 43]

Good points tbird, oh, bearcat coach. Enough arguing and at least let this thread focus on the right topic (sorry I contributed to sidetracking it). Who is planning to attend this event? Any teams/clubs traveling down or over to it?

[raidercoach 51]

Poobah didn't go anywhere. I try to be a productive part of our wrestling community and participate here apart from just arguing with others as you seem to enjoy. Thanks mlee for showing at least one of you can have an adult discussion with someone on this site.

Raider I will give you all the credit for 1991. I'm not living in the 90s myself. I prefer the present. Speaking of the present. How many middle school teams in Boone co are better today than they were when you "took over" at raiders. I would venture to say about ZERO.

Lets back up here for a bit. You guys claim to encourage "adult conversation" on this site and are clearly defending JW's comments about how we ran our tournament. If you take the time to go back to the beginning of these posts and read JW's comments, he admitted that he was baiting us into this debate. He went out of his way to criticize the way we run our tournament on the eve of our event that we put a TON of work into. Then he came back and pointed out the only two negative incidents he could muster up that occured at our tournament. For the record, he pointed out two incidents that we actually corrected. Every tournament has problems that arise that need to be corrected regardless of format. JW and I have gone back and forth on these boards over these same topics in the past, we have a history.....he knew he was picking a fight over these issues and picked a terrible time to do it.

Ranger, you only call JW's post "adult conversation" because you happen to agree with his position on these topics. You and him have clearly made your case that you don't like the way the youth association was being ran. You are on record for having personal issues with Raider Youth. You guys have eliminated the team scoring at state, eliminated middle school state placers from participating in the youth state tournament, and have proposed changes to 10% rule. I am not the one making changes to the association by claiming to know more than the people who set up the initial by-laws....you guys are. I happen to strongly believe in the by-laws that we had because they worked. The only proof you need is the growth numbers. I personally have seen our youth state tournament grow from 150 kids to over 1000. It baffles me that anyone would try to make such drastic changes to our association with so much growth on record. We warned you over the summer that there will be negative consequences of making such changes and you guys decided to do it anyway. Here is my prediction: this will be the first year we see a decline in participants at the youth state tournament since it began.

To answer your question about middle schools in Boone County. I only coach at the youth level....don't know where that question came from. That would be like me asking you how many college teams have you helped. You don't coach in college just like I don't coach in middle school...dumb question. I volunteer as much time as I can, but have NO kids that wrestle since I have two daughters. I'd challenge you to find ONE post I've ever made on this site where I challenged anyone's efforts or impact as a coach. I have the utmost respect for everyone who coaches wrestling. I only volunteer to help give back to the sport that I love and to help my brother. The President of our association should be grateful to have volunteers like me instead of trying to compare resumes.

My comment to you about our match in 1991 was tongue in cheek. I only brought it up because it is about the only explanation I can come up with as to why you always go out of your way to take the other side of everything I have an opinion on. Face to face, I've always found you quite nice and reserved. On these boards, you turn into a know-it-all message board bully. Regardless, I really don't care what you think. I don't coach for the politics...I coach to help kids and because I love being on the mat. I have ZERO desire to be involved with the politics of running the associations. The thought of sitting in a room with you, JW, and everyone else to defend our existing by-laws from being torn apart and revamped into the way things were 20 years ago makes my stomach hurt just thinking about it. I couldn't think of something else I'd like less to do. So you guys can change everything to the way they do it in West Virginia, but be prepared to defend the decline of participation when it happens.

[Ranger123 43]

So deciding to eliminate team scores in September 2012 will result in a participation decline in feb 2013? Please explain that one?

You have brought up resumes on a few occasions. And my point is the work you do at the youth level should have a direct impact at the middle school level.

No problem with raiders. Had hrs of nice conversation with coach Ruschell this weekend and have a very friendly relationship with plenty of folks in union. I've been on the opposite side of debates with Matt and we respectfully agree to disagree. For some reason you can't do that.

And jw and I have been on opposite sides as well on a few items. It happens. Yes we happen to agree on this. I appreciate the mutual respect with him more than I care about his position on topics.

On the bylaws. Anyone who believes a set of bylaws for a new youth organization can be created and never revised to allow for continual growth and development is only focused inward. The bylaws are there to guide the vision and mission of the state as a whole and not just your program or my program. It's not about trying to get 3000 kids in alltech

[raidercoach 51]

So deciding to eliminate team scores in September 2012 will result in a participation decline in feb 2013? Please explain that one?

You have brought up resumes on a few occasions. And my point is the work you do at the youth level should have a direct impact at the middle school level.

No problem with raiders. Had hrs of nice conversation with coach Ruschell this weekend and have a very friendly relationship with plenty of folks in union. I've been on the opposite side of debates with Matt and we respectfully agree to disagree. For some reason you can't do that.

And jw and I have been on opposite sides as well on a few items. It happens. Yes we happen to agree on this. I appreciate the mutual respect with him more than I care about his position on topics.

On the bylaws. Anyone who believes a set of bylaws for a new youth organization can be created and never revised to allow for continual growth and development is only focused inward. The bylaws are there to guide the vision and mission of the state as a whole and not just your program or my program. It's not about trying to get 3000 kids in alltech

Well, eliminating team scores AND preventing kids who place in middle school to participate in youth will for sure lower participation and competition. You have eliminated the incentive for coaches to get new kids out, don't know why you can't understand that. My brother has a pipeline of kids through coaching football. Do you think he was as motivated to get an extra 10-15 new kids out as he was before? I know he wasn't because he told me so.

I'm having a hard time following your logic on youth to middle school. Are you suggesting that the kids that come through Raider youth have not been successful in middle school? If so, you are out of your mind. There were more middle school state champs just last year that came through Raider youth than CC. I'm certainly not taking all the credit for those kids like apparently you are, but our program has produced many great middle school wrestlers. You just have the luxury of having almost all of CC youth kids going to CC middle. We don't have that in Boone County.

You are on record for having issues with our program. If you'd like to revisit it with me, I'd be glad to refresh your memory. I only bring it up because to me, it shows where your head is when you make decisions that you know we don't agree with.

As far as respectfully disagreeing, I feel thats all I have done. I haven't personally attacked your success as a coach or program as you have with me and our program. I'm only questioning your policy. I called out your resume once because you are the one acting as if you know more than everyone else. If I went in and started tearing up by-laws, I'd expect someone to check my credentials.

What you have done to the by-laws are a little more than revisions. You are revamping the core ideas that were put together to promote growth. You don't want 3000 kids in Alltech, thats fine. But, what you have done has ensured that we will have less participants than last year at state, which lowered the overall competition and eliminated a motivator for coaches to up their numbers, while pissing off the largest youth team in the state to the point where we've considered leaving KY for CYW.

[raidercoach 51]

So deciding to eliminate team scores in September 2012 will result in a participation decline in feb 2013? Please explain that one?

You have brought up resumes on a few occasions. And my point is the work you do at the youth level should have a direct impact at the middle school level.

No problem with raiders. Had hrs of nice conversation with coach Ruschell this weekend and have a very friendly relationship with plenty of folks in union. I've been on the opposite side of debates with Matt and we respectfully agree to disagree. For some reason you can't do that.

And jw and I have been on opposite sides as well on a few items. It happens. Yes we happen to agree on this. I appreciate the mutual respect with him more than I care about his position on topics.

On the bylaws. Anyone who believes a set of bylaws for a new youth organization can be created and never revised to allow for continual growth and development is only focused inward. The bylaws are there to guide the vision and mission of the state as a whole and not just your program or my program. It's not about trying to get 3000 kids in alltech

Here was just last years results at middle school state from past Raider Youth kids:

4 Champs

4 Runners-Up

1 4th Place

1 5th Place

7 more qualifiers

Consider yourself lucky those kids didn't go to one middle school, because I'm pretty sure the aforementioned team would have taken home your precious middle school title. For the record, I'm not claiming all the credit for these kids like you are, but to act as if Raider Youth haven't had success at middle school is asinine.

[Ranger123 43]

Go back read my post. TODAY. Yes Stan Martin sent a ton of great wrestlers to the middle school ranks in the past. And check your numbers again. We had 4 state champs at cc. I give those 4 boys all the credit. They worked hard to earn it. 3 of them left a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in my driveway and the football stadium and places like the graham wrestling room. And to cry because they don't all go to one school is ludicrous. You can't have it both ways. You pull them in from all over they will end up at different schools.

[Ranger123 43]

And did you really just say that your brother chose to not recruit as much just because he couldn't bring home a trophy? Wow. I don't see that from Matt. If that is true, and you made the statement not me or jw, it says a lot.

[MLee 68]

Wow..a lot of action in here today.

Ranger, I know Raidercoach isn't taking anything away from your team. They are a great group of kids. But, I've read a couple posts you've made implying the Raider Youth program hasn't generated MS results which, as Raidercoach pointed out, is just untrue. You're not the only one. We've heard it before. "numbers, numbers, numbers"

For the record, before Stan there were the Ashworth's and others who did a pretty good job themselves starting the Raider Youth Club and building champions (Ruschells, Reid, Peace, Osborne to name a few). Stan did his job and we're trying to do ours. You do know C.C. had a pretty good tradition before you showed up, correct?

And as far as "pulling them from all over"...once again, not really true. Schools and programs have sprung up all around our area (unlike in C.C.) and kids just have more options. I think it is great. It is a sign of growth which is what our sport needs. Imagine how good Cuyahoga County High School would be (if it existed) and there were no other teams in the county!!

[MLee 68]

And did you really just say that your brother chose to not recruit as much just because he couldn't bring home a trophy? Wow. I don't see that from Matt. If that is true, and you made the statement not me or jw, it says a lot.

What does it say?

Our kids want to win a team state championship just like every team at all levels. As a coach, it is my job to help them reach their goals. The old team scoring system (by design) encouraged teams to bring a lot of kids. In order to beat the other top clubs in the state, you need to have a lot of good kids; therefore, we aggressively recruited. When the YMCA soccer moms took over, you removed the incentive to produce the #'s. How is this so different than you wrestling year round w/ your kids w/ "a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in my driveway and the football stadium and places like the graham wrestling room?"

The association grossly underestimated the competitive spirit of the youth coaches. The competitiveness is what helped push the bar higher and it was removed.

[2yankees3 2]

I am just giving my opinion and some experiences that our team has had the past couple of years. I am not taking sides or trying to cause more problems, just givimg our experience with weigh ins. We are located in southern KY and wrestle on saturdays in TN. The reason for this is because most KY youth tournaments are on sundays and start in the afternoon. The largest and best tournaments for the most part are ran by teams in NKY or the Louisville area. I am not saying they are the only good tournaments, so please do not take offense. The problem we have with this is that it is usually around a three hour drive and if any of you have an 8 year old like mine that is often a terror in the morning you realize the problem. It is a long day and a longer monday morning. Im not asking or complaining for change, i realize that these tournaments are on sundays for logistics and scheduling and i am just explaining why we wrestle in TN. We would prefer to wrestle Ky tournaments, but is just to hard on our parents and kids to make the trips on sundays.

That being said, we wrestle in TN and have to weigh in at every tournament. We are reguired to be registered by thursday night before the tournament by division and weight class. This is through trackwrestling and the brackets are in the computer when we arrive for the weigh ins. If a wrestler busts weight there is a rebracketing fee of usually $20.00 on top of the registration fee. We weigh in on thursday night at practice and then register the appropriate weight class. This is the part where some people are going to say this leads to cutting in the youth ranks. We DO NOT CUT WEIGHT. I know there are some that do just as there are coaches and parents that have kids cut with the 10% tournaments. Another topic. Some are now going to say they are small tournaments. The smallest we went to last year had a little over 500 kids. There are usually around 800 kids. Some tournaments are ran better than others and can take some time to get started, but most are started within a half an hour of posted time. They also have a belt series that is ran during the season. Each region host a tournament that the kids can accumalate points toward the belt. These tournaments have drawn over a thousand participants.

Again I am not trying to throw gas on the fire just giving some background and info. Weigh ins can work and I dont believe will hurt the numbers that coaches and volunteers in Ky have worked so hard to grow. I applaud all of you for the work that you all have done. My son is 8 and this is his 3rd season and cant get enough of the sport. He wrestled 5 tournaments over the summer in 4 different states and weighed in all of them. We are in Clarksville TN this saturday, Nashville the next, and heading up I65 saturday night to wrestle at the fern creek tournament. Everyone have a good season.

[Ranger123 43]

Agree Matt. The ashworths had a dynasty going. And I my knowledge the only discussion re: cc was my reference to our state champs. Never said anything good or bad about history. I obviously recognize the history here. That was a big reason I live where I do.

Yes there are more options in Boone but its not like cc has 10000 more students than the Boone schools. Drawing in a similar pool as Ryle and Boone and sk.

[Ranger123 43]

But you care more about how you stack up than having 5-10 more kids in the sport? I'll take them all no matter what it means for me or how we stack up?

[MLee 68]

But you care more about how you stack up than having 5-10 more kids in the sport? I'll take them all no matter what it means for me or how we stack up?

This is where I think your thought process gets jaded. If I'm following you correctly, you claim adding #'s is more important than how you stack up, however you voted against a scoring system that encouraged growth with years of documented proof. Huh? How does that make any sense.

And by the way, I agree. Increasing #'s should be the primary goal of the association. I know our club has done our part in exposing more families to our sport over the past several years. Believe me, my job as a coach would be a lot easier to only have 20 kids in the room. I couldn't imagine it. We've had 80+ kids for 3 years in a row.

[raidercoach 51]

But you care more about how you stack up than having 5-10 more kids in the sport? I'll take them all no matter what it means for me or how we stack up?

What don't you understand about this? There WAS a motivation for a youth coach to try to get as many kids on their team as possible because it was a clear advantage at the state tournament. The people who created our by-laws knew that this would drive up numbers at the youth level by creating a competitive dynamic at state. It worked beatifully...just look at the growth results. I helped coach at Conner at the time and we knew we had to dilligently get more kids out to compete with the other large programs. Look at the largest youth programs in the state and almost all of them are in NKY. You don't want to acknowledge that this had an impact on the growth, but I know it did because I was apart of two teams that wanted to beat each other. It was like an arms race!

Now, getting more kids out isn't easy. You have to have a pipeline into football, you need more coaches, more space, etc. It takes a lot of work, but one of the incentives was to have a better chance of meeting the team's goal of a state championship. As corny and as trivial as YOU may think a team youth state title is, the kids love it and you guys took that away. The impact has been less motivation to actively get more kids out and less interest in the state tournament. Like I said our team considered and is still considering skipping our state tournament and going to CityWide. It will definitely have better competition now because of the stupid rule you imposed of not allowing middle school placers to wrestle at the youth state, it has more prestige, and they actually act as if they want us there. At the end of the day, the results will speak for themselves. You claimed eliminating team scores would not have an impact and we were jumping up and down saying it would. We'll find out at state.

[Ranger123 43]

I like how you ignore all of the other coaches who voted exactly the same way I did. As I recall I wasn't the only person in the room. If you are so concerned about "the bylaws" get off your couch and make the drive to the meeting. Heck this spring it was all the way in, oh no, Campbell county. I guess it is easier to sit home and whine and type when you don't like the decisions made by those who choose to actively participate.

[raidercoach 51]

I like how you ignore all of the other coaches who voted exactly the same way I did. As I recall I wasn't the only person in the room. If you are so concerned about "the bylaws" get off your couch and make the drive to the meeting. Heck this spring it was all the way in, oh no, Campbell county. I guess it is easier to sit home and whine and type when you don't like the decisions made by those who choose to actively participate.

You have NO clue what I do for a living, family situation, etc. For you to assume I sit on my couch and do nothing is once AGAIN showing your arrogance. I guess you expect us to just bow down to your superior knowledge and watch you run the youth association into the ground without saying a peep. I thought this board was for "adult conversation". Oh wait, I guess just like everything else, YOU decide what is and what isn't adult conversation. I can't wait for you to defend yourself when the state tournament's numbers are down. I'm sure you will have some nerdy explanation as to why it is while deflecting your own hand in it. You are already setting up your excuses by blaming it on the other coaches, when everyone knows it was you leading the charge. I activiely participate in coaching kids when time permits and taking care of my family, none of which by the way wrestle. It would be beyond weird for me to invest as much time into wrestling as you with two young daughters at home. But, according to the Great Arrogant Poobah, if someone doesn't attend the meetings, coach a middle school state championship team, and politick all year long for acceptance in the state, they should just sit back and keep their mouth shut. You are quite the piece of work Ranger.

[Ranger123 43]

So the entire raider youth program couldn't find one person to attend and express you side? I expressed my opinion. No charge was lead. I showed up. We talked about it. An voted. I didn't speak to others prior to gain votes. Honestly I have little more vested interest than you. Both of my boys are participating at the middle school level.

[MLee 68]

So the entire raider youth program couldn't find one person to attend and express you side? I expressed my opinion. No charge was lead. I showed up. We talked about it. An voted. I didn't speak to others prior to gain votes. Honestly I have little more vested interest than you. Both of my boys are participating at the middle school level.

I blame the lack of voting on myself. I was knee deep in other sports and didn't have wrestling on the brain. No excuse, just didn't make it. We'll be there in full force next time.