No team scores for Youth State Tournament

[BadMadDad 16]

Yes...I want you to go back and look into it. Don't be a coward and come on here and accuse someone of cheating with NO evidence other than saying "how messed up the bracketing was..." and then say the past is the past. If you have convincing evidence, you can PM me and I will personally hand deliver our state trophy to whoever got second place that year. I know it didn't happen because I WAS THERE. The only thing we did was attempt to separate kids from the same region from the same side of the bracket, which is what has always been done in the past and is what is done at every level including middle school and high school.

Fair enough, MLee just hit the nail on the head. I did not realize that an attempt was made to separate kids by region. The way I see it is if we have 8 kids that weigh the same thing, why not bracket them together and end ANY controversy. If they happen to be with the same program, separate them on the bracket. Then the problem is solved and no argument can be made. If that was the case, why did my son face a kid from his same region in the opening round? It is not a crime to be consistent! Look, before anyone starts giving me grief I know big programs have a problem with their kids facing each other, but that happens with the smaller programs as well and it IS part of youth wrestling. I can’t begin to tell you how many times one of our own has had to face a teammate. When it happens, our coaches let the kids go and wrestle. We keep our mouths closed during the match but in our own gym we talk to them about what they can do to improve so the next time they face off they could have a totally different result.

Yes...I want you to go back and look into it. Don't be a coward and come on here and accuse someone of cheating with NO evidence other than saying "how messed up the bracketing was..." and then say the past is the past. If you have convincing evidence, you can PM me and I will personally hand deliver our state trophy to whoever got second place that year. I know it didn't happen because I WAS THERE. The only thing we did was attempt to separate kids from the same region from the same side of the bracket, which is what has always been done in the past and is what is done at every level including middle school and high school.

As far as being called a coward it is easy to do behind a screen name.

[raidercoach 51]

Fair enough, MLee just hit the nail on the head. I did not realize that an attempt was made to separate kids by region. The way I see it is if we have 8 kids that weigh the same thing, why not bracket them together and end ANY controversy. If they happen to be with the same program, separate them on the bracket. Then the problem is solved and no argument can be made. If that was the case, why did my son face a kid from his same region in the opening round? It is not a crime to be consistent! Look, before anyone starts giving me grief I know big programs have a problem with their kids facing each other, but that happens with the smaller programs as well and it IS part of youth wrestling. I can’t begin to tell you how many times one of our own has had to face a teammate. When it happens, our coaches let the kids go and wrestle. We keep our mouths closed during the match but in our own gym we talk to them about what they can do to improve so the next time they face off they could have a totally different result.

As far as being called a coward it is easy to do behind a screen name.

Ha...it's not too hard to figure out who I am if you have been paying attention. And if you keep accusing us of cheating without any evidence, I'll call you a coward to your face the next time I see you....thunderstruck. I guess that is your name.

[raidercoach 51]

Ha...it's not too hard to figure out who I am if you have been paying attention. And if you keep accusing us of cheating without any evidence, I'll call you a coward to your face the next time I see you....thunderstruck. I guess that is your name.

Fair enough, MLee just hit the nail on the head. I did not realize that an attempt was made to separate kids by region. The way I see it is if we have 8 kids that weigh the same thing, why not bracket them together and end ANY controversy. If they happen to be with the same program, separate them on the bracket. Then the problem is solved and no argument can be made. If that was the case, why did my son face a kid from his same region in the opening round? It is not a crime to be consistent! Look, before anyone starts giving me grief I know big programs have a problem with their kids facing each other, but that happens with the smaller programs as well and it IS part of youth wrestling. I can’t begin to tell you how many times one of our own has had to face a teammate. When it happens, our coaches let the kids go and wrestle. We keep our mouths closed during the match but in our own gym we talk to them about what they can do to improve so the next time they face off they could have a totally different result.

As far as being called a coward it is easy to do behind a screen name.

Mr. ThunderstruckX2 (apparently you don't use a screen name), how long have you been around youth wrestling? These scenarios happen at every tournament. Do you know how many Raiders had to face someone from the same region? If you ever ran a tournament before then you would understand how many things could go wrong and how much tinkering has to be done to make the brackets make sense. It is never perfect and there will always be a few pissed off parents or coaches. However, I think the unanimous opinion was that when we ran the tournament, it went very smooth and the brackets were as good as you can get them. I assure you that the people involved with our team are class acts and would sooner have our kids face stiff competition than rig the brackets so we could win the tournament. We were very aware of the perception of the host team rigging the brackets. Hence, we went out of our way to make sure paranoid people didn't have a reason to believe we tinkered with the brackets to our favor....and yet we still get people claiming we do. It is a can't win situation. I apologize for coming off like a hard ass about this, but I take it as a personal attack that is unfounded. It makes my blood boil when people make these accusations, because you are essentually calling us cheaters and dimenishing our hard work. I'm all for finding a system that is full disclosure and eliminates these concerns, but when we do what will your excuses be then?

[HardWork_Pays 2]

I swore once I moved on that I would never comment on this site again, but after reading what both raidercoach and MLee have posted on here I couldn't hold back.

I have no need to hide behind a screen name- my name is Zack Smith and I coached for the past five years for Conner Middle School and spent some time with the youth team as well. As you know, year in and year out Conner battles it out with Ryle youth for the top spot in the youth tournament why is that? Numbers, hands down it comes down to the numbers. I went to the youth state tournament several years ago and I was blown away by how good Union's youth team was that year. They had around 16 kids and I swore that I didn't see a Union kid lose all day, yet Union finished 5 or 6th? I cannot remember it’s been several years ago. The reason Ryle and Conner both are successful is because they have large numbers of kids, and while I am not taking anything away from either program everyone know this. Yes Ryle and Conner coaches put in huge amounts of their time, I've seen it and vouch for it, but both of these programs pull kids from their own middle school team and others. Majority of these kids are studs too. I can name probably 15 or more in my five years with Conner Middle. And I know you don't want to hear it raidercoach but there always seems to be scoring issues and odd bracket pairings at these tournaments. I always thought it was funny that the Grandstaff twins would always have to wrestle each other in the finals with very few Raider kids, maybe one at most, in their bracket. Yet four, five other Gray kids who were tough, nowhere near the Grandstaff's, would be placed in other brackets and "Win" a state title. I also remember when Conner clearly won a state title three years ago, yet Ryle won the title when the scores were read. Only after Conner coaches reviewed the brackets figured out that Conner should have won by 40 points. After reviewing this Conner was rightfully awarded a state title, after Raider coaches threw arguably the biggest hissy fit that comes to mind. Conner went from losing by 60 points to winning by 40. Odd right??

As a former coach of a successful Middle school team as well, I am supportive of getting rid of team scoring in both youth and at the middle school level. Very successful wrestling states such as New Jersey, Penn., and Ohio run their tournament this way. I firmly believe in state dual tournament formats to determine a team champion but I like the idea of an individual state tournament being just that for individuals and not team. That’s just personal preference. Also I will say this over and over again; the idea of having 4 state champs at one weight class is beyond insane. I have spoke with one very influential person about this on numerous occasions and he has provided insight on why that is, but I don't agree with it at all. Thunder I know you support the decision and we have talked about it at some middle school events, but I think the state would only get better if we only put one state champion out there and not 4.

And raidercoach, "haters just going to hate"??? Seriously? Are you a coach, a kid, or a punk? I would never associate a coach of youth sports to have that kind of mentality. Maybe you’re trying to live through your kids or something. Some of the comments that you have posted have made me scratch my head. Not every school has the ability to "get a bigger room, or get more mats". Stan Martin did wonders for that program getting the mats and room to practice, but not every school has a Stan Martin, or Pat Lee running their program. Some programs don’t have the support Ryle does, not only in the community but with the parents/family as well.

Suck it up, the majority voted, if I had a vote I would have voted the same way. If you’re really concerned about your state title keep your own score and brackets and award your kids with an imaginary trophy.

[raidercoach 51]

I swore once I moved on that I would never comment on this site again, but after reading what both raidercoach and MLee have posted on here I couldn't hold back.

I have no need to hide behind a screen name- my name is Zack Smith and I coached for the past five years for Conner Middle School and spent some time with the youth team as well. As you know, year in and year out Conner battles it out with Ryle youth for the top spot in the youth tournament why is that? Numbers, hands down it comes down to the numbers. I went to the youth state tournament several years ago and I was blown away by how good Union's youth team was that year. They had around 16 kids and I swore that I didn't see a Union kid lose all day, yet Union finished 5 or 6th? I cannot remember it’s been several years ago. The reason Ryle and Conner both are successful is because they have large numbers of kids, and while I am not taking anything away from either program everyone know this. Yes Ryle and Conner coaches put in huge amounts of their time, I've seen it and vouch for it, but both of these programs pull kids from their own middle school team and others. Majority of these kids are studs too. I can name probably 15 or more in my five years with Conner Middle. And I know you don't want to hear it raidercoach but there always seems to be scoring issues and odd bracket pairings at these tournaments. I always thought it was funny that the Grandstaff twins would always have to wrestle each other in the finals with very few Raider kids, maybe one at most, in their bracket. Yet four, five other Gray kids who were tough, nowhere near the Grandstaff's, would be placed in other brackets and "Win" a state title. I also remember when Conner clearly won a state title three years ago, yet Ryle won the title when the scores were read. Only after Conner coaches reviewed the brackets figured out that Conner should have won by 40 points. After reviewing this Conner was rightfully awarded a state title, after Raider coaches threw arguably the biggest hissy fit that comes to mind. Conner went from losing by 60 points to winning by 40. Odd right??

As a former coach of a successful Middle school team as well, I am supportive of getting rid of team scoring in both youth and at the middle school level. Very successful wrestling states such as New Jersey, Penn., and Ohio run their tournament this way. I firmly believe in state dual tournament formats to determine a team champion but I like the idea of an individual state tournament being just that for individuals and not team. That’s just personal preference. Also I will say this over and over again; the idea of having 4 state champs at one weight class is beyond insane. I have spoke with one very influential person about this on numerous occasions and he has provided insight on why that is, but I don't agree with it at all. Thunder I know you support the decision and we have talked about it at some middle school events, but I think the state would only get better if we only put one state champion out there and not 4.

And raidercoach, "haters just going to hate"??? Seriously? Are you a coach, a kid, or a punk? I would never associate a coach of youth sports to have that kind of mentality. Maybe you’re trying to live through your kids or something. Some of the comments that you have posted have made me scratch my head. Not every school has the ability to "get a bigger room, or get more mats". Stan Martin did wonders for that program getting the mats and room to practice, but not every school has a Stan Martin, or Pat Lee running their program. Some programs don’t have the support Ryle does, not only in the community but with the parents/family as well.

Suck it up, the majority voted, if I had a vote I would have voted the same way. If you’re really concerned about your state title keep your own score and brackets and award your kids with an imaginary trophy.

Zach, let me be clear, I'm all for revising the team scoring in some fasion, but removing them all together eliminates the element of team competition which helps drive teams to get better. I love the current team scoring system, because it pushes each team to get more participants in order to compete. I've helped coach at Connor Middle and Raider youth (I believe I coached you when you were much smaller!) and getting participation up should be a priority as a coach. There is no question, that as coaches and as competitive people, that trying to win the youth team state title has motivated the Raider coaches to get more kids out every year, which in turn puts pressure on Connor, CC, SK and everyone else to do the same in order to compete. I'm just concerned that by eliminating the team score all together, that competitive spark between coaches/teams will go away and stunt the great growth we have seen over the years. At the end of the day, I want Raider youth to win, but I LOVE seeing how good ALL of NKY wrestling has gotten over the years, largely in part to the competitive dynamic between the youth teams.

Also, I remember the Connor/Raider incident and none of the current coaches from Raiders were even around when that happened. Also, the Grandstaffs did not have to wrestle each other the year we hosted. In fact, I know their dad very well and he personally thanked us for not putting them in the same bracket. To be honest, we didn't separate them, but it was just the way it worked out. They wrestled each other when CC hosted, not Raiders.

As far as my "haters going to hate" comment, you have to understand that there is a large contingent of people who hate Raider youth because they are successful. You don't have to look further than this message board for proof. Its the same reason people hate the Yankees and UK hoops, its because they win. No one will ever admit it, but I assure you a big part of the motivation to eliminate team scores had more to do with the hate and jealousy for Raider youth than anything productive. I can safely say that because there is no logical benefit to eliminating team scores. It benefits no one other than the people who are sick of losing and have convinced themselves they can't compete.

I know Stan Martin and Pat Lee very well and I assure you they aren't special! They just had a "can do" attitude and didn't accept no as an answer to things like "we don't have a big enough room" or "we don't have enough mats". They are very motivated people and were very good at the administrative part of running a team which I would argue is more important with youth than being a good technician. Stan handed the torch to Matt Lee and he's kept the fire going at Raider youth. Those dudes had regular meetings in the offseason to discuss the transition from Stan to Matt like they were a Fortune 500 company transitioning between CEO's.

[MLee 68]

Ha! I had no idea this topic would snowball like it has. I do love how there is so much passion about youth wrestling in the middle of June. I'm convinced, we need to bring back State Duals at the youth level!

[grappler-of-old 44]

I am one that is not in favor of keeping team scores at the individual state tourney. If you want a state champ make a dual state tourney. I believe this should happen on every level Youth, Middle and High school.

Raider: How would you measure your team against others? Very easily. I don't need team scores to know if the kids I coached were not competitive enough.

How would it benifit? Easy teams can focus on their kids individually and not worry about trying to win a team title. Seeding meeting will be more true (I know they don't have those at youth). I've seen it many times when coaches don't vote for the right seeds so that it benifits their "Team points".

As for the Youth. These are kids in elementry school. I remember when GOO Jr. was in Youth and I told him his team were champions he said oh cool. It didn't really matter to him. All he cared about was he and his freinds winning as many matches as they could. I would say that the coaches and parents are the only real people who care about the team title. The kids could care less all they want is their individual wins and titles.

[raidercoach 51]

I am one that is not in favor of keeping team scores at the individual state tourney. If you want a state champ make a dual state tourney. I believe this should happen on every level Youth, Middle and High school.

Raider: How would you measure your team against others? Very easily. I don't need team scores to know if the kids I coached were not competitive enough.

How would it benifit? Easy teams can focus on their kids individually and not worry about trying to win a team title. Seeding meeting will be more true (I know they don't have those at youth). I've seen it many times when coaches don't vote for the right seeds so that it benifits their "Team points".

As for the Youth. These are kids in elementry school. I remember when GOO Jr. was in Youth and I told him his team were champions he said oh cool. It didn't really matter to him. All he cared about was he and his freinds winning as many matches as they could. I would say that the coaches and parents are the only real people who care about the team title. The kids could care less all they want is their individual wins and titles.

I'm all for a dual tournament. I suggest we do both just like high school, that would be better than not doing anything.

I disagree with your take on being competitive. Goals need to be measurable, not simply pass the "eye test". You are selling yourself short as a coach if you don't set clear and measurable goals as a team.

Your take on the benefit makes no sense. As a coach, we don't change our practices around winning a team title nor do we worry about it. I know you've been around state championship teams. How intense and productive were the practices leading up to the state tournament? Our practices the weeks leading up to state are always our best because all of our kids our focused as a team because of the team's goal. This in turn improves their individual perfomances in practice and in the tournament.

GOO Jr might not care, but I promise you kids care. Our kids love being apart of a "state champion" team, no matter how diluted or rigged people claim it is. It helps us market the team to other kids. It is basic marketing...people want to be associated with winners...not whiners.

I'm done debating over this. Other than GOO's failed attempt no one has even tried to present any logical benefit to eliminating the team scores. I just wish the people who voted would just be honest with themselves and admit the real reason why they got rid of it. Naturally, the only people who are going to be upset over this are from the team that wins it....which has been Raider youth for the past few years. Everyone else is either not going to care or against it, which I think is gutless. Like I said earlier, if everone is so afraid to lose, then why don't we just hand out "Participation" ribbons at state to everyone that shows up? Why is it okay to compete on an individual basis with youth kids, but it makes no sense on a team basis? Why is okay at Middle School and High School to keep team scores, but its not with youth? You can't make a case for it without being hypocritical. Competition should drive us to be better, not scare us into not wanting to compete.

[grappler-of-old 44]

I would aslo contend that the tournament would run faster and smoother without team scores. I know we have computers now but there is always mistakes. It may not seem much but saving 15 seconds on each match can add up to a lot of time saved over the day.

With competition comes longer matches with longer matches comes longer tournaments. If there is one individual thing that is hurting our sport the most is the long saturdays. How many other sports practice 5 days a week then spend an entire 6th day at their sporting event? We who love wrestling don't care about the time however those we are trying to get hooked on wrestling do care and those are the ones we need to get involved and interested in our sport. If we can shorten the day on elementary then we can get those parents hooked and they won't care about the long saturdays when they get to high school.

Giving every kid a ribbon or medal in gradeschool is not a big deal. That is what youth sports are about, getting the kids excited about that sport. I know in baseball (T-ball) they don't have wins and loses the first 2 or so years and no champion. It's so they get the kids excited about the sport.

RC: Don't stop debating because some have turned this issue into a witch hunt against your team. (That is not my intent) Good debates lead to better understanding and overall better decision making by all. Even I have been known to bend my opinion a little over a good debate. Mrs. GOO and I "DEBATE" all the time, I usually have to bend my opion when that happens.

[Ranger123 43]

Oh, where do I start.

First, let's go back to youth state tournaments past. I believe the year of the Conner/Raider debacle we were the host. I don't believe it was a "Raider" issue. They may have thrown a fit, but that is somewhat understandable to have a trophy taken from your team.

Second, last year's re-bracketing. Saturday night I walked by the room as the coaches were dealing with the bracketing problem. A number of coaches were talked to about the issue and everyone agreed that Matt Lee was the best guy to deal with the issue due to his knowledge of the program. And to the best of my understanding he was not alone is fixing the problem.

So, on both of those issues there is no witch hunt in my mind. Nothing wrong with Raiders in any way.

[Ranger123 43]

NOW, team scoring at the state tournament. I will admit I was one of the voices against keeping team scores. Showed up at the meeting and voiced my opinion. And just in case you are wondering raidercoach, it has nothing to do with my fear of competing against you. I'll line up my best and take on your guys any day of the week. GOO hit the nail on the head for my major gripe. The team scoring is a nightmare. Because of the random nature of scoring kids it is virtually impossible to automate or computerize the scoring. That is why the snafu came up a few years ago. I remember watching Pat Lee franticly try to tally the scores a few years ago and admit he couldn't possibly get it right. Running this event is enough of a logistics headache that in my mind team scoring shouldn't contribute to that pain. If the Raiders want to take the brackets, score the event, buy a trophy, and announce you are the winners I am all for it. But under the current format (no weight classes) I DO NOT support team scoring. Set the weight classes so we can run a standard scoring program and I will be on board.

One last thing. The big problem I have with the numbers argument is those numbers should be kids that practice with you all season. I get a little ticked when I see a kid show up at the state tournament wearing a different singlet than he has worn all season. Compete for Team A or Team B.

[MLee 68]

I believe I stated this before, but I can care less about the results. The final results of the tournament should not be our focus. My concern is what happens when the competitiveness is removed.

As Raidercoach mentioned, Youth Wrestling in our state has increased dramatically. To me, that should be the fundamental goal of all clubs but certainly that of our Youth officials. If we are achieving our primary goal of attracting more kids/parents/coaches to our sport, why the rush to get rid of teams scores w/ one vote? Why not listen to a few different ideas first? Do the team scores help draw more kids? Does the spectacle of the tournament help retain kids? If so, then under no circumstances do I say we change it.

Also, sorry Ranger, I refuse to believe someone with your intellect cannot figure our our team scoring. It couldn't be more easy and I have been baffled how it gets messed up. For those who don't know, here is our youth scoring system: 1st place=4pts, 2nd=3pts, 3rd=2pts, 4th=1pt. Only one participant from a team can score per bracket. THAT IS IT! No advancement points, pin/tech/major pts....NOTHING. Ranger, not sure how in the world you do your rankings, but I'm quite sure it is more complicated than this. All the host team needs to do is receive all brackets and have the ability to add. I'm aware of a few obstacles we have w/ receiving the brackets and blah, blah, blah, but come on! S Oldham did the team scores when we hosted (so we're not taking any credit) and they had it done 5 minutes after the final match and it was accurate. I know, because I triple checked after the tournament.

Once again, I'm in favor of exploring all other options before dismantling what appears to be working. We all can agree that Youth Wrestling in our state is much better today. I just would hate for us to take a step backwards after all the hard work.

[raidercoach 51]

NOW, team scoring at the state tournament. I will admit I was one of the voices against keeping team scores. Showed up at the meeting and voiced my opinion. And just in case you are wondering raidercoach, it has nothing to do with my fear of competing against you. I'll line up my best and take on your guys any day of the week. GOO hit the nail on the head for my major gripe. The team scoring is a nightmare. Because of the random nature of scoring kids it is virtually impossible to automate or computerize the scoring. That is why the snafu came up a few years ago. I remember watching Pat Lee franticly try to tally the scores a few years ago and admit he couldn't possibly get it right. Running this event is enough of a logistics headache that in my mind team scoring shouldn't contribute to that pain. If the Raiders want to take the brackets, score the event, buy a trophy, and announce you are the winners I am all for it. But under the current format (no weight classes) I DO NOT support team scoring. Set the weight classes so we can run a standard scoring program and I will be on board. One last thing. The big problem I have with the numbers argument is those numbers should be kids that practice with you all season. I get a little ticked when I see a kid show up at the state tournament wearing a different singlet than he has worn all season. Compete for Team A or Team B.

Ranger/GOO, The long Saturdays aren't directly linked to keeping team scores. In fact, the last two state tournaments were over early compared to most of the youth tournaments we attened and the state tournament is the only tournament we attended (that I recall) that kept team scores AND it had way more kids participating than the other tournaments. I know in the distant past there were issues, but the last two years the tournament was over at a reasonable hour. I think it is safe to say that the team scoring kinks have been worked out. If you want to cut down time, there are many better options than getting rid of the team scores. Get rid of or modify the hour long face offs, that would be a better option.

I'm not in full support of having weight classes for many reasons that have already been beaten to death. However, if our only choice is to have weight classes with team scoring or no weight classes and no team scoring, I suppose I'd change my stance. Ranger, you were in the meeting, was it ever discussed to modify the state scoring or move to a dual format?

I firmly believe that team scoring at state has helped drive up numbers for some teams which at the end of the day is a huge benefit. I like the current scoring because it does reward teams with big numbers, which is a good thing. If I were a youth coach on a small team, I would be committed to driving up numbers to perform better at state...its just that simple. If you look around at the growth in youth, particularly in NKY, its hard to argue that what we are doing isn't working. You may disagree with my claim that team scoring helps drive up numbers, but consider this: if only one team is committed to driving up numbers to be competitive, then isn't it safe to say that their competition will follow suit in order to compete with said team? I think that has happened in NKY to a certain degree. I could care less about the trophy or the claim that we are state champs because I am well aware of how flawed the scoring is perceived.

I don't expect anyone to come on here and claim their motivation to eliminate team scores was partly due to their belief they can't compete with the Raiders or Connor because of the numbers. But, I know deep down that it had something to do with the decision. I've been associated with 4 teams in NKY in my career, so I've been on the other side of the Raider machine longer than I've been with them. I know how people outside their program feel about them, there is a deep rooted envy and I've seen it first hand. While people are going to get on here and claim their decision was for whatever reason, I KNOW deep down some (maybe not all) of the people who were behind this decision did so because of their dislike of the Raiders.

As far as the kids wrestling for different teams, we have youth aged kids wrestle middle school during the season and compete for us at state. In every instance that I can think of, they wrestled their youth with us in the past and not with another team. I don't really like it, but if the kid wants to wrestle both its hard to say no. Its no different than a middle school kid wrestling at both middle and high school state.

[Ranger123 43]

The different team issue is not isolated to Raiders; heard it happens in the Louisville/Oldham area as well. The big difference in your example is that wrestling for the high school will require you to be in the same school system. I can only speak to the Raider kids, but I know that is not the case at the youth level. Kids are going to different schools and competing for other middle school programs then showing up with a Raider singlet at state. Yes, the kids I know competed for Raiders at the youth level, but it just rubs me wrong when they compete for another program during the season, then Raiders at state. My question is do they pay the club fee to join the team or do they get a "deal"?

As a coach in one of the most successful programs in this state that has grown and flourished over the last few years, I can say with 100% certainty that team finish at the youth state tournament has absolutely NO impact on our participation. And I don't see that changing. To this point I have heard 1 club make that claim.

Back to fear and envy, again, I couldn't care less how many youth state titles the Raiders win. Great for you guys. I know you have a lot of great wrestlers and good coaches. And with your numbers your results are what I would expect. Does that hurt me or my program? Not one bit. Our focus is preparing these kids for middle school and high school wrestling. And as I recall those titles are sitting somewhere else in Northern KY.

As far as options, there really were not many ideas discussed. Those in attendance were in favor of getting rid of the scoring rather than debate an alternate plan. I'm sure I coulld devise some plan for automating the scoring, especially if we discussed alternate plans. But I'm not prepared to spend the time or brain power on that right now as I don't see it contributing to growth outside of your program. I'm all for a dual competition; imagine it would be a blast. But again, that would require set weight classes.

Come on Matt. Dismantling? We are just saying don't mess with team scores at the event. No one is keeping you from doing that when you get home.

[raidercoach 51]

The different team issue is not isolated to Raiders; heard it happens in the Louisville/Oldham area as well. The big difference in your example is that wrestling for the high school will require you to be in the same school system. I can only speak to the Raider kids, but I know that is not the case at the youth level. Kids are going to different schools and competing for other middle school programs then showing up with a Raider singlet at state. Yes, the kids I know competed for Raiders at the youth level, but it just rubs me wrong when they compete for another program during the season, then Raiders at state. My question is do they pay the club fee to join the team or do they get a "deal"?

As a coach in one of the most successful programs in this state that has grown and flourished over the last few years, I can say with 100% certainty that team finish at the youth state tournament has absolutely NO impact on our participation. And I don't see that changing. To this point I have heard 1 club make that claim.

Back to fear and envy, again, I couldn't care less how many youth state titles the Raiders win. Great for you guys. I know you have a lot of great wrestlers and good coaches. And with your numbers your results are what I would expect. Does that hurt me or my program? Not one bit. Our focus is preparing these kids for middle school and high school wrestling. And as I recall those titles are sitting somewhere else in Northern KY.

As far as options, there really were not many ideas discussed. Those in attendance were in favor of getting rid of the scoring rather than debate an alternate plan. I'm sure I coulld devise some plan for automating the scoring, especially if we discussed alternate plans. But I'm not prepared to spend the time or brain power on that right now as I don't see it contributing to growth outside of your program. I'm all for a dual competition; imagine it would be a blast. But again, that would require set weight classes.

Come on Matt. Dismantling? We are just saying don't mess with team scores at the event. No one is keeping you from doing that when you get home.

Ranger,

Raiders are a club team. We have kids that will go on to wrestle for WV, Ryle and possibly Cooper. The emergence of WV's and Cooper's youth teams will eventually create a scenario where Raider kids will mostly go to Ryle and some to WV, but that is up to the family, not us. They have the same issue in Louisville. CC doesn't have nearly as many youth programs to compete with, so you guys don't have this issue. We have 4 large youth programs cranking in Boone County now, where you have Newport and CC, which geographically speaking are pretty far apart compared to our 4 teams. It is a lot different over here.

If it rubs you the wrong way to see some middle school kids wrestle for the youth team they grew up in, it must have really bothered you to see those two state champions lead CC to that high school title you are boasting about after transferring midseason, right? You walked right into that one! I agree with you on this topic. I don't like it when I'm coaching a kid at state I haven't seen all year long. But, it is the kid's right to wrestle both and until every middle/high school team has a youth feeder, this issue will always be there.

I think you are wrong about the state tournament scoring not having ANY impact on your team. I've said it before; it helps fuel the competition between our teams, in particular with the coaches, which motivates your team to be bigger and better. I doubt in a lot of instances coaches are even conscious of the effect, but I'm sure its there. I have had many conversations with coaches from other teams about how bad they want to kick our butts. Well if they are chasing us and getting bigger and better in the meantime and we are chasing the team state title, then wouldn't that be a beneficial cause and effect of the team scoring?

You know good and well that having your team recognized by the state as team champion is a lot different than doing it yourself when you get home.

[trithis 34]

So, after all of this debate back and forth....where should I send my youngest son who is 4 years old to wrestle?

[MLee 68]

Our payment policy is as follows:

$100 for new kids

$50 for returning state champs

We pay Middle School placers $50 to wrestle for us

$25 bounty for beating any CC wrestler

[raidercoach 51]

We've done extensive research into how the University of Miami Hurricanes recruit and how the New Orleans Saints motivate players. We have used these invaluable techniques to build an empire.

We also implemented Eastern European and Lance Armstrong training methods to maximize our wrestlers' full potential.

[trithis 34]

Wow! This has turned into entertainment for the masses.

[raidercoach 51]

So, after all of this debate back and forth....where should I send my youngest son who is 4 years old to wrestle?

Where do you live? If you live near Union or anywhere in Campbell County, he should wrestle for the Raiders. Also, if your last name is Carr, Cooper, Ervin, Merritt or Gable, then he should wrestle for the Raiders regardless of where you live.

[tiltfor3 20]

So, after all of this debate back and forth....where should I send my youngest son who is 4 years old to wrestle?

If you live in or near Jefferson County, I could speak to you about the benefits of a faith based education/club. We are looking into forming a Colbert type PAC for donations to compete with the NKY teams.

[trithis 34]

raidercoach and tiltfor3 - I appreciate your help with trying to guide me and my son in the right direction. I currently live in NKY and just hope my son shares the same passion and exhuberance for the sport that we all have...or learn to have. I have a pretty good idea of what program(s) I will start my son out in. Thanks for your help.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Right here is another beniit to no team scores. No more confussion on why a team wins or how.

I'm not sure how the rules are for Youth, but if a kid is wrestling for say Newports middle school program they have no right to wrestle for Campbell's Youth program. This would be true on any level. (And your correct I have a problem with the way CC won the high school title and it will always have an asterik in my minds eye).

Competitiom between the coaches may be true but that does not travel down to most of the kids. If you say coaches will coach harder if they are trying to catch up or stay ahead. Then those coaches are coaching for the wrong reason.

I personally will help anyone from any school that needs help, if I can give it. This is exceptionally true at the Youth level. Way back when I had my own team I helped other teams who competed against my kids. I even told my kids weaknesses, in the long run it made both kids better.

[rideemout 16]

Why is their a scoreboard if the score doesnt matter? of course their should be a team sccoring, they just need to revise the age sepertion, should only be 1 weight class with no age restrictions beyond having to be apart of the youth program. This way all the "smaller schools" will stand a chance and wont have this argument for taking away team scores. I know as a youth wrestler i loved for my team to win, and as a high school wrestler i love it just as much. So why take away the scoring? instead of simply taking away all the age groups, who wants to partake in a sport where there is no winner? losers

[raidercoach 51]

Right here is another beniit to no team scores. No more confussion on why a team wins or how.

I'm not sure how the rules are for Youth, but if a kid is wrestling for say Newports middle school program they have no right to wrestle for Campbell's Youth program. This would be true on any level. (And your correct I have a problem with the way CC won the high school title and it will always have an asterik in my minds eye).

Competitiom between the coaches may be true but that does not travel down to most of the kids. If you say coaches will coach harder if they are trying to catch up or stay ahead. Then those coaches are coaching for the wrong reason.

I personally will help anyone from any school that needs help, if I can give it. This is exceptionally true at the Youth level. Way back when I had my own team I helped other teams who competed against my kids. I even told my kids weaknesses, in the long run it made both kids better.

GOO,

There is no confusion on our part. Every kid that competes for the Raiders is a legitimate part of our team. We have had a handful of kids that live outside of the Ryle district (either in WV or Cooper), but they started with us. With the emergence of the other programs, they either elected to stay or go. We have LOST kids and coaches to WV and Cooper, but we haven't taken any kids from other programs in the few years I've been here. I don't know why that is being made an issue at all. In fact, CC has it made compared to us. We have the top 2 programs in the state from the same county and 2 others emerging faster than Newport. Furthermore, Newport and Alexandria are on polar opposite sides of the county geographically. Walton, Union, Florence and Burlington are on top of each other. You guys are on an island out there compared to us.