Discussion: Fargo & State

[TheGuru 0]

1. There are many, many, many, many, many more USA/AAU wrestlers than there are High School wrestlers.  Many wrestlers start off with USA when they are 4 y/o or there about.2.  If you look at Europe, you can see FILA wrestling continued and there is no such thing as HS wrestling.

So, sorry, you are wrong again - GURU

:-D :-D :-D

That I am Dinibus!  I misspoke in my post when I said "but most kids are more into high school wrestling than freestyle & greco", and you called me on it good job man.  I didn't think I had to explicitly say "most HIGH SCHOOL aged kids are more into HIGH SCHOOL wrestling than freestyle & greco", I thought it would be understood that I was not including 4 year old kids when talking about high school wrestling since a 4 year old kid can not wrestle in high school state.  If you include all USAW/AAU card holders, aged 4-100, you got me there are probably more.  But there are not more high schol aged kids wrestling fs/gr in this country than there are high school aged kids wrestling folkstyle.  It's not even close, don't try to argue.  I don't care about Europe, that's irrelevant because those kids can not wrestle in our high school states.

Ok so hopefully we are clear on that.  You said "any high school kid that places a higher importance on a state championship than being an ALL AMERICAN, must be in special needs classes", I'd say being an All American is more prestigious but most high school kids want to be a state champ first.  Most high school aged wrestlers have a goal of being a state champ with a fargo AA being icing on the cake.  My point in my original response to you was if they had to choose between the 2, they would not skip their state tournament to go to Fargo.  Most kids are shooting for a state title.  I'm not saying what is harder or what will earn them a scholarship.  I'm saying what is more important to a high school aged wrestler.  I know you'll have some sort of rebuttal, if you do, fine you win we just can't agree.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Finally, you spelled college as "collage" for the second time.  I misspell words all the time, but they typically are not the same exact word every time, so I figured I would help you out here.

I believe that is my most misspelled word.  (I also have touble with the word "the" it comes out "teh") My fingers just don't want to spell it correctly and spell check doesn't find it.  Maybe I will just start using university.  Like when porky pig can't say a certain word he changes it.  :-D

Thats all folks.

[dinubus 2]

:-D :-D :-D

That I am Dinibus!  I misspoke in my post when I said "but most kids are more into high school wrestling than freestyle & greco", and you called me on it good job man.  I didn't think I had to explicitly say "most HIGH SCHOOL aged kids are more into HIGH SCHOOL wrestling than freestyle & greco", I thought it would be understood that I was not including 4 year old kids when talking about high school wrestling since a 4 year old kid can not wrestle in high school state.  If you include all USAW/AAU card holders, aged 4-100, you got me there are probably more.  But there are not more high schol aged kids wrestling fs/gr in this country than there are high school aged kids wrestling folkstyle.  It's not even close, don't try to argue.  I don't care about Europe, that's irrelevant because those kids can not wrestle in our high school states.

Ok so hopefully we are clear on that.  You said "any high school kid that places a higher importance on a state championship than being an ALL AMERICAN, must be in special needs classes", I'd say being an All American is more prestigious but most high school kids want to be a state champ first.  Most high school aged wrestlers have a goal of being a state champ with a fargo AA being icing on the cake.  My point in my original response to you was if they had to choose between the 2, they would not skip their state tournament to go to Fargo.  Most kids are shooting for a state title.  I'm not saying what is harder or what will earn them a scholarship.  I'm saying what is more important to a high school aged wrestler.  I know you'll have some sort of rebuttal, if you do, fine you win we just can't agree.

I don't know why I bother with you and you cannot seem to comprehend, but after reading this post I had a question.  Who asked any kid to skip the state tournament in order to wrestle at Fargo?  I don't get your logic.  Sorry.

[dinubus 2]

I believe that is my most misspelled word.  (I also have touble with the word "the" it comes out "teh") My fingers just don't want to spell it correctly and spell check doesn't find it.  Maybe I will just start using university.  Like when porky pig can't say a certain word he changes it.  :-D

Thats all folks.

I do the "teh" thing all the time too.  My fingers just cannot seem to get it right when I am trying to type something fast.

[TheGuru 0]

I don't know why I bother with you and you cannot seem to comprehend, but after reading this post I had a question.  Who asked any kid to skip the state tournament in order to wrestle at Fargo?  I don't get your logic.  Sorry.

The feeling is very mutual.  Apparently you can't comprehend, please re-read my posts on this thread.  It's all there you can figure it out.  Maybe get your kids to help you understand the big words.

[dinubus 2]

So, what you are really saying is:

I'm not even sure I know what I am talking about.

Thats okay, we all already knew that.  :wink:

[grappler-of-old 44]

If you really want to get more kids to attend these type of tourneys then one major obstacle must be removed.

That obstacle is the rule about high school coaches not coaching their athletes in the summer.  If Ky high school coaches could attend and coach kids on their team I truly believe there would be more Ky kids at these tourneys.

One reason this would happen is because these coaches would help set up these kids with transportation and information on these tourneys. 

Even though I may disagree with the importance of these tourneys, I would still like Ky kids to have easier access to these tourneys.

[Charger Coach 14]

If you really want to get more kids to attend these type of tourneys then one major obstacle must be removed.

That obstacle is the rule about high school coaches not coaching their athletes in the summer.  If Ky high school coaches could attend and coach kids on their team I truly believe there would be more Ky kids at these tourneys.

One reason this would happen is because these coaches would help set up these kids with transportation and information on these tourneys. 

Even though I may disagree with the importance of these tourneys, I would still like Ky kids to have easier access to these tourneys.

Both an excellent and very valid point there GOO.  As for the whole "would a kid rather be a state champ or an AA", well I think that would depend on the individual and can't be just a generalized point.  If a kid knew he had no shot at being an AA at Fargo or wherever, but knew he had a shot to be a state champ, obviously I think they would choose being a state champ.  However, if a kid had already won a state championship, was truly looking to make a name for himself, looking to attract attention from major college coaches and / or also thought they had a shot at placing at a large national tournament, I think they would choose being an AA.  I think when most kids start wrestling and eventually make their way to high school, being a state champ would foremost in their mind.  However, as a kid begins to notice their potential or lack there of, that's when the aspirations of being more than just a state champ or not begin to take priority and things like being an AA at a major tournament or obtaining that college scholarship for wrestling become more important.  If I had to say which one "most" kids would rather be, I would say most would rather be a state champ because they don't have any aspirations beyond high school wrestling.  But there are those few who want more and being an AA is what they would rather be.  I think the same thing holds true for other kids who play other sports.  When kids 1st start out playing football or whatever, they can't wait to play on their high school team.  Once they realize their potential, they start thinking bigger like all-state, then maybe college scholarship.  If they get that college scholarship, they begin thinking of starting for their college team, then making all-conference, etc.  If they excel at that next level then dreams and hopes of playing professional start to take priority.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion anyway.

[dinubus 2]

If you really want to get more kids to attend these type of tourneys then one major obstacle must be removed.

That obstacle is the rule about high school coaches not coaching their athletes in the summer.  If Ky high school coaches could attend and coach kids on their team I truly believe there would be more Ky kids at these tourneys.

One reason this would happen is because these coaches would help set up these kids with transportation and information on these tourneys. 

Even though I may disagree with the importance of these tourneys, I would still like Ky kids to have easier access to these tourneys.

That same rule exists in all the other states as well.  Why should KY be different?  What makes it toware we are weaker and cannot get these things done when they are dealing with the same rules?  We can and will succeed when we push for more summer tournaments, more organization in USA wrestling within the state, urge more parents who seem quite willing to work during season to work out of season with our competitors...

[dinubus 2]

Both an excellent and very valid point there GOO.  As for the whole "would a kid rather be a state champ or an AA", well I think that would depend on the individual and can't be just a generalized point.  If a kid knew he had no shot at being an AA at Fargo or wherever, but knew he had a shot to be a state champ, obviously I think they would choose being a state champ.  However, if a kid had already won a state championship, was truly looking to make a name for himself, looking to attract attention from major college coaches and / or also thought they had a shot at placing at a large national tournament, I think they would choose being an AA.  I think when most kids start wrestling and eventually make their way to high school, being a state champ would foremost in their mind.  However, as a kid begins to notice their potential or lack there of, that's when the aspirations of being more than just a state champ or not begin to take priority and things like being an AA at a major tournament or obtaining that college scholarship for wrestling become more important.  If I had to say which one "most" kids would rather be, I would say most would rather be a state champ because they don't have any aspirations beyond high school wrestling.  But there are those few who want more and being an AA is what they would rather be.  I think the same thing holds true for other kids who play other sports.  When kids 1st start out playing football or whatever, they can't wait to play on their high school team.  Once they realize their potential, they start thinking bigger like all-state, then maybe college scholarship.  If they get that college scholarship, they begin thinking of starting for their college team, then making all-conference, etc.  If they excel at that next level then dreams and hopes of playing professional start to take priority.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion anyway.

I don't know because I was never like most kids, but I do know that most of the kids I competed against while in high school had high hopes and dreams and all desired to be on the team Michigan to go to Fargo and other trips.  Since each weight class allowed for 4 spots, there were always plenty with alternates.  Of course, I look at the roster now and see that Michigan has far fewer athletes than in the past.  This could be attributed to the fact that everyone is moving out of MI during this economy, to that disaster of a league called Myway, or (and I won't believe this one) to the lack in desire in todays youth.

[grappler-of-old 44]

That same rule exists in all the other states as well.  Why should KY be different?  What makes it toware we are weaker and cannot get these things done when they are dealing with the same rules?  We can and will succeed when we push for more summer tournaments, more organization in USA wrestling within the state, urge more parents who seem quite willing to work during season to work out of season with our competitors...

I don't believe that is true.  Not all other states have the same rule.

Ky is at a disadvantage because we barely have enough coaches to coach the high school teams let alone finding other coaches to coach a summer team.

This rule in Ky does not just affect head coaches or assistant coaches.  It affects anyone who helps with a high school team and acts as a coach in any way for a high school team.

[TheGuru 0]

I don't believe that is true.  Not all other states have the same rule.

Ohio high school coaches have no problems coaching fs/gr in the summer.  In fact they have summer leagues up there.  The rules must be a little different there.

[TheGuru 0]

Both an excellent and very valid point there GOO.  As for the whole "would a kid rather be a state champ or an AA", well I think that would depend on the individual and can't be just a generalized point.  If a kid knew he had no shot at being an AA at Fargo or wherever, but knew he had a shot to be a state champ, obviously I think they would choose being a state champ.  However, if a kid had already won a state championship, was truly looking to make a name for himself, looking to attract attention from major college coaches and / or also thought they had a shot at placing at a large national tournament, I think they would choose being an AA.  I think when most kids start wrestling and eventually make their way to high school, being a state champ would foremost in their mind.  However, as a kid begins to notice their potential or lack there of, that's when the aspirations of being more than just a state champ or not begin to take priority and things like being an AA at a major tournament or obtaining that college scholarship for wrestling become more important.  If I had to say which one "most" kids would rather be, I would say most would rather be a state champ because they don't have any aspirations beyond high school wrestling.  But there are those few who want more and being an AA is what they would rather be.  I think the same thing holds true for other kids who play other sports.  When kids 1st start out playing football or whatever, they can't wait to play on their high school team.  Once they realize their potential, they start thinking bigger like all-state, then maybe college scholarship.  If they get that college scholarship, they begin thinking of starting for their college team, then making all-conference, etc.  If they excel at that next level then dreams and hopes of playing professional start to take priority.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion anyway.

You're dead on the money in my opinion.

[TheGuru 0]

That same rule exists in all the other states as well.  Why should KY be different?  What makes it toware we are weaker and cannot get these things done when they are dealing with the same rules?  We can and will succeed when we push for more summer tournaments, more organization in USA wrestling within the state, urge more parents who seem quite willing to work during season to work out of season with our competitors...

toware did you go to collage at dinubus?  :-D :-D  Ok, seriously i give up now.  poke fun of me or goo all you want but that's worse than collage right there.

[Ranger123 43]

You're dead on the money in my opinion.

Yes, I think dragon master said what goo and I were getting at.  Right on.

[TheGuru 0]

Yes, I think dragon master said what goo and I were getting at.  Right on.

Oh! Oh! Oh!  And me too, don't forget about me! 

[Ranger123 43]

Oh! Oh! Oh!  And me too, don't forget about me! 

And guru too.  I think I got distracted by the "discussion" between you and dinubus.

I guess I'll follow up on an earlier post.  This whole Fargo thing is off topic.  If we're going to continue, let's move it to the Fargo thread.

[dinubus 2]

Okay, I don't wish this to get moved over to the Fargo thread and cover up the accomplishments of the three KY wrestlers with a drive to become an All American or at least give it a shot and get good competition, so this will be my last post on this topic.  Evidently you all, having been KY wrestlers yourselves, know more about the drive of other KY wrestlers than me.  I guess I just expect more drive than is available here and I need to get used to more apathy.  Thanks for clearing this all up Ranger, GOO, Dragon Master, and of course Guru.

[ubtappin 1]

So, how about those rankings?

[Mathound 4]

I will say this...

I don't think you will see any ranking changes based on this years Fargo results (ervin and fahy are already #1 and murphy is #3 behind two great wrestlers).

Maybe we'll get to see some interesting matchups this weekend at BGSG.

[big77 0]

Unfortunately I can read between the posts of Dinabus, his interests are of good nature (I hope) that better overall competition breeds excellence, (I agree) it teaches your strengths and weakness and give you an overall look at what you need to have a productive practice, and lets you know what works and doesn't, with that being said , I think in all of the years of coaching , pushing your on ideas, whether they are correct, may come out sounding like you are disregarding the valiant efforts of many, and that does not go over well and then you find yourself fighting (argue), you do have a great point , but the needs of the many do not out weigh the needs of the few and we do not need  everybody trying to be an AA, there are a select motivated few athletes and coaches, with the financial, and work schedule, and family support who deserve a shot, but like it has been said , most wrestlers are interested in a state title(which in its own takes alot of sacrifice and support) but remember the many athletes that are not interested in AA status are the ones that keep the programs alive (Middle school, Elem. and High School ) there are more kids wrestling that are there to be part of a team atmosphere, enjoy the sport and are using it to keep in shape  or learn the skills of wrestling to enhance other sports (football) do not alienate these kids, but do keep driving the ones who want to make the next step(college) with the opportunity to be at Fargo and a chance to be an AA, this is just like any other sport, we fight the same battles in Football, and Baseball, and Basketball, the ones who are willing to go the extra mile always have the opportunity, the ones who do not can still have goals and can still be apart of the sport, not everyone wants to be Dan Gable or Cael Sanderson, but for the ones who do Dinabus (and others) be there for them and we will make sure they get the due respect they deserve , and hopefully they reach the goals they have set...

[Kentucky10 0]

i would think the pressure would still be on at state. its your state!! you are representing yourself and trying to declair that no matter what im the best in the state. and you can say that, but at fargo all you can say is "im the best at fargo" im the best out of who decided to go. there might still be someone out there better but ill never know because that person didnt "man up" and come. and i agree it comes down to the wrestler, if the wrestler loves giving up his summer to spend alot of money to travel to these tournys, than fargo is where he belongs. but if the kid likes to bust his butt in season, put in the time when the time comes, but also has maybe another passion, whos to say that state should mean nothing to that kid compared to fargo. i would like to see someone go up to harrison courtney and say your 4 state titles are nothing compared to the kid that won fargo last year.

[dinubus 2]

Wow, don't talk until you have attended Fargo.  You can say I am the best in the Nation when you go there. Far better than the best in Kentucky.  Don't even go there.

[dinubus 2]

Under your idealogy Kentucky10, no one should go to the Olympics, because all you can say is that "I'm the best at the Olympics" there could be someone better, but they didn't "man up" and come.  What a stupid perspective on it.

[TheGuru 0]

Is there anyone on this site that is not crystal clear on the fact that Fargo is by far harder than our state tournament?  No, I didn't think so.  Dinubus, why are you beating this dead horse?  Everyone knows this.  Yes, it poops all over our state tournament.  But some kids are just weird and know this but still just aspire to be a state champ.  Some kids  :-o :-o :-o don't even like to wrestle freestyle or want to wrestle in college.  Some of those kids go to sleep every night dreaming of being a Ky state champ, and don't know or think anything about Fargo.  That doesn't make these kids wrong.  But they will still feel a lot of pressure at state when the time comes.  Don't get your feelings hurt, I'm just respectfully presenting you with another perspective.