KWCA rankings

[grappler-of-old 44]

This discussion is difficult without putting out a disclaimer 1st.

***  None of my arguments are intended to hurt, or belittle anything that Ranger123 has done with his rankings.  I admire the time and dedication that he gives to the rankings and to wrestling in general by trying to give us something to keep wrestling in the forefront of our minds.  Thank you Ranger123 for all your time and effort.

now on to the discussion.  By now you should know that I like to use numbers in my points so here we go.

1.  The reason they are mentioned at the state tourney is so that people in the stands can watch some of the premier matchups at the state tourney.

2.  The reason the KHSAA "endorses" and I use this word lightly is because it is put out by the KWCA.  Why would they take rankings from someone they don't know and is not associated with KHSAA in any shape or form?  ***please view disclaimer above****

3.  As I stated before, KWCA will not take info from anyone but head coaches or known confidants.  Without the KWCA starting the rankings there would probably be no rankings at all today.

4.  Don't blame KWCA for the coaches that do not send in info.  (I personally think that tournament directors should be the ones responsible for results.)

5.  I do however believe that if Ranger123 is a coach at a school and a member of KWCA then he should possibly help with these rankings.  (This is something that KWCA would need to vote on or at least discuss)

[grappler-of-old 44]

I don't think we should be mad or upset with him but the coaches who are not taking the time to fill out the survey. If we should revolt against anyone it should be them.

Those coaches that do not turn in the survey are probably those coaches that do not want their kids ranked for fear of distraction.

[Ranger123 43]

1) I would agree that we can't hold Coach Coomes completely responsible for the lack of data used in the rankings.  But I will say that at least he has some "connection" to the coaches that should help.  I do accept information from a wider variety of sources, but on use what I feel is accurate and then only after it has been verified or is from a trusted source.  I'm not going to say that he should make the time to do it differently, but to the point of credibility, it could be done better.  I have a full-time job, family, and also help out in the wrestling room 5 days a week (minimum).  It doesn't take much to look at the papers, especially thanks to those posting articles/links on this site.

2) When I was a coach I submitted information and never received any acknowledgement that I sent anything.  As I have said many times, I was a member of the KWCA before I decided that it was a complete waste.  Maybe it was because I was from a small school that wasn't really important.

3) I have offered my services.  Not going there again.

4) I would not expect the KHSAA to use our rankings (and I say ours because everyone is helping to make them the best in KY!) because they need that credibility.  But when they do "endorse" the KWCA rankings it validates them to all of the wrestlers, coaches, parents, and fans in attendance.  Would you be happy with the KHSAA announcing some of the rankings we are seeing right now from KWCA?

[Superfly 0]

These rankings were the worst i have ever seen how is North Hardin ranked 13. That is crazy who ever did the ranking needs to do middle school rankings. :mrgreen:

[GB-The-Sportsman 0]

It's not like the rankings matter.

Coach C doesn't have to do these rankings for everyone.

So just take them for what they are.

If you don't like it look at rangers, and if you don't like rangers,look at coach C's.

Just pick ones you like and shut up!

We should be greatful that someone would take his time to make this sport more known and interesting, and boosting wrestlers to step their game up.

Its pointless to argue about rankings just because they are different.

So just let it go! The state tournament will tell who the studs are.

[Ranger123 43]

It's not like the rankings matter.

Coach C doesn't have to do these rankings for everyone.

So just take them for what they are.

If you don't like it look at rangers, and if you don't like rangers,look at coach C's.

Just pick ones you like and shut up!

We should be greatful that someone would take his time to make this sport more known and interesting, and boosting wrestlers to step their game up.

Its pointless to argue about rankings just because they are different.

So just let it go! The state tournament will tell who the studs are.

The whole point of this site is to NOT shut up.  Not to defend complaining, but the argument is not about being different.  Everyone has their own opinion.  But everyone wants reasonability.  If the KWCA, the closest thing Kentucky High School wrestling has to an organizational body, is going to produce something it should at least be of some value.  I would be embarrassed to see those in a newspaper.  There is one kid I know on there who is jv and the varsity guy isn't ranked at all.  The jv kid gets into tournaments that allow extras, but won't be on the mat come post season.  I will be the first to admit that I'm not perfect.  BUT you can be confident that I have put 100% effort into my work each week.  I don't get all of the results and probably miss one or two items from the results I do get.  But I check the papers daily and send notes to coaches, fans, and wrestlers to get as much info as possible.  I'm not saying the KWCA should do all of that.  But they should do something better.  Heck, they should have the results of every match, they're the coaches.

[Ranger123 43]

I will add that I think Union Co has a great shot at winning the state dual title.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Heck, they should have the results of every match, they're the coaches.

Here lies the root of all of this arguing.  NO the KWCA does not have all the results, heck my guess is that the majority of the coaches are not members of the KWCA.  Many of the others don't send info (I'm speaking of mostly Nky here), because they wrestle out of state the majority of the season, therefore the results are meaningless. 

1st the state should require sending results to a central site.  This may happen since the wt. loss program site offers this, even though KY is not using it yet.  This would be a huge step forward to getting accurate information for everyone.

Once again Ranger I am not dismissing the huge effort that you put into these rankings.  I applaude your dedication to helping wrestling stay in the forefront of our minds.

Keep up the good work

[eville dad 17]

Here lies the root of all of this arguing.  NO the KWCA does not have all the results, heck my guess is that the majority of the coaches are not members of the KWCA. 

All Head Coaches are not members of the KWCA?

Why wouldnt a Coach be a member?

Is there a fee?

How many of the high schools coaches are members of the KWCA?

[kdsmith27 14]

I have been a member of the KWCA for the last 3 years and have gone out of my way to inform and report tournaments. I have also as most of the coaches know endorsed and encouraged coaches to join. Needless to say over those 3 years my input has been ignored. Apparently I am not in the click. Coach Coomes is a nice person, but input with him is held to a small group. I have been approached by our College Coaches to help improve our State Duals with great Ideas. The one idea that we were trying to explore was to incorporate a College meet at the State Duals Cumberland vs. Campbellsville to help increase our attendance and overall experience. He was Called, left messages by the College coach with no response. The association is recognized by KHSAA because of the old coaches that have been coaching forever and run the association. as was said in another blog, they are comfortable with status quo, and seem to be resistant to change. Just my opinion. This year I will pass on membership.

[kdsmith27 14]

All Head Coaches are not members of the KWCA?

Why wouldnt a Coach be a member?

Is there a fee?

How many of the high schools coaches are members of the KWCA?

In my 3 years with the KWCA I have never seen or heard who is an active member of the KWCA. Other then sending in my money, I have never recieved anything from our coaches organization. The only time KWCA is discussed is at the coaches meeting at state.

[Guest wrestler92]

I will agree with much of what has been said.   Having been on the other side of the mat from Coach Coomes for many years and many matches he was very receptive to certain coaches and only wanted that input.  It is a shame that he is the one in charge of the KWCA and in a few years when he does retire and someone else hopefully picks it up that it may change.   I will also say that he has an air to him,(that he emits) believe that because he has been around for awhile that people owe him something or should give him more respect.  the bad part is I don't think he shows it in return and that's also a reason why some coaches don't bother with returning their sheets and if/when they did there was never a response to it or an acknowledgement of it.  So if it doesn't help then why would you bother doing it from that point on?  Just my history on the subject.  I will also agree that there was never enough group participation for the organization to do anything or have any power, but it wouldn't necessarily have been what the general population wanted anyway, instead just what one person would have wanted.

[overweight 0]

I do not know that much about all of everyones' claims, I did see a kid ranked so high (that I like) it was way out west, at the class he will lose double digits.

There is a fee for KWCA, the website is usually under construction, my out-of town members of my family make fun of that (for the second year). Copy and paste, scan it, are easy ways to keep up I would think.

Ranger has taken the time to put some kids where they COULD be, rankings are rankings, if you disagree, send actual multiple stats, real ones, I have seen some playing (with results) on here already. Those will get it close to most rankings. I see most arguments from people that wrestle the same people over and over, you have to spread your greatness over a larger group, sorry but that is true, you can beat some good guy ten times, but where are you good at (what area, what person)?

Good job Ranger, too much work for me!

Merry Christmas to all!

[overweight 0]

Overall, I think the rankings look good.  Thank you to Coach Coomes for doing them.  I did see one omissions that kind of shocked me.  Terry Turner was not ranked at 189.  I saw other Central Hardin wrestlers ranked so I know their coach is turning in the results.  Anyone know what's up with that

Do you really think Coomes had anything to do with this?

[bulldog-leader 56]

In the 20+ years I have been a coach, in which most of those years I was a KWCA member.  I have done little more than vote for coach of the year at the state tourney.  

The only significant event that I can remember the KWCA discussion and implementing was the development of the State Duals. Which is still run by KWCA.  Other than that I have not been informed of any meetings (other than the state tourney) or voting procedures.

The meeting before the state tourney never seems to solve anything.  Most coaches are focused on the event ahead and can't give full attention to other topics that need to be addressed by the KWCA.

As far as the collage match occurring during the state duals.  I do think this was mentioned and most coaches thought that it would lengthen the day (which is already a long day).  

[ccbcdeke 43]

OK, so what other "duties" or "responsibilities" does the President of the KWCA have?  And is this an elected position by the members of the association?  What does the KWCA, as an association, do?

I believe that when the middle school started their association, they elected a president from those who were members.  Maybe this is an alternative for ousting the old regime, if that is what is indeed needed.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

I would like another attempt in trying to explain my perspective on the KWCA ranking issue. I don't believe anyone is personally attacking an individual from KWCA. I believe I am speaking for every single person who has ever been on this web site when I say; We all love wrestling!

I am only advocating for the advancement in quality, respect and credibility of Kentucky wrestling in all aspects of the sport. Kentucky is undoubtedly known as a  powerhouse in high school basketball. Objectively, Kentucky wrestling does not have much regional respect, being overshadowed by Ohio and Indiana, and certainly does not even register on a national level. Not to say we have not had some great individuals from Kentucky, but lets face it, we still have alot of work to do. I have, in the last few decades,however, seen exponential improvements in both the quality of the wrestler and the quality of our state tournament. We are getting better. But when I see the KWCA ranking it does make me embarrassed for Kentucky wrestling. Afterall, those rankings would make an outsider believe the 160 lbs weight group only has 5 wrestlers and the 145 lbs group has 7 wrestlers in the entire state.  It simply looks bad. 

I have neither seen nor even know Coach Coomes. I am sure he is a fine man and he certainly has my respect and admiration for all of the years of service to the Kentucky wrestling athletes. This man has done more for wrestling than I have and I will bow to him anytime! Everyone is busy. But quality and accuracy most not be sacrificed in the interest of time. When this occurs the entire sport of wrestling suffers. Those individuals placed in a position of power must take their position seriously and attempt to disseminate accurate information. If they are unable to do so, then delegate to those who have the time. For example, it is now half way through the season and one of the 112 lbs wrestlers ranked by KWCA quit at the beginning of the season and has never even wrestled a varsity match. What kind of credibility is that? I am not arguing about opinions, but please, at least know some of the minimum facts as if a wrestler even  exists and if so, what weight group. Integrity should be at all levels starting with the state leaders and moving down to the coaches, wrestlers, officials and fans.

I do have a  suggestion. It is quite apparent that few coaches return their stats to KWCA. Therefore, I suggest the coaches agree to delegate the job to an objective, unbiased individual, or small group of people to generate a serious, accurate ranking. Perhaps Ranger could be the person or chairman of the committee.  Naturally, I would want Coach Coomes to have veto power to make adjustments before he signs off as the representative for KWCA. Once this occurs, KWCA will begin to have some credibility. Until then, their ranking is useless.

Most importantly, I truly cherish KentuckyWrestling.com. Finally, all of us old farts, who have more time than muscle and joint flexibility, can engage in discussion about a sport we all truly love. Let face it fellows, we have to come up with some controversial topic so we all have reasons to interact with each other and still be involved in the oldest and best sport ever created. Thanks to everyone who participates in ongoing discussions.

[overweight 0]

I think there should be a person voted (or volunteer) in to keep up with the web site and the rankings. There are people that have the time to keep track of it better than it is being taken care of by the KWCA, Ranger and Mathound are on it. Just from the boosters' systems I have been involved with, there are several people that could keep up with it better, willingly,,,,,,

Maybe it is a job that Coach does not really like anymore because of the internet, paper notes are not the "up-to-the-minute" as it used to be. We just need a more internet savvy person to keep up with what is going on, I think we have it here.

Merry Christmas to All!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[GB-The-Sportsman 0]

Well there is no need to dis the work of the KWCA rankings.

Respect them and take them for what they are.

There isn't any rankings in the world that are perfect,

Yes there are some over rated and under rated wrestlers on there.

And your aren't different.

I can point out millions of thing wrong with your rankings, as well as Coach C's.

Not to be disrespectful, if your going to sit there and dis the man who most likely made i change in kentucky wrestling, as well as his staff then you must not have a clue. if you all have such a problem with his rankings then start sending results to him, and stop crying about it its just that simple. :wink:Trust the sportsman, it really is.

[Ranger123 43]

Well there is no need to dis the work of the KWCA rankings.

Respect them and take them for what they are.

There isn't any rankings in the world that are perfect,

Yes there are some over rated and under rated wrestlers on there.

And your aren't different.

I can point out millions of thing wrong with your rankings, as well as Coach C's.

Not to be disrespectful, if your going to sit there and dis the man who most likely made i change in kentucky wrestling, as well as his staff then you must not have a clue. if you all have such a problem with his rankings then start sending results to him, and stop crying about it its just that simple. :wink:Trust the sportsman, it really is.

No, it's not that simple.  First, we're not dissing the man.  I'm sure he has done more for KY wrestling than I ever will.  All we're saying is that he obviously doesn't put a huge effort into the rankings.  We can argue all day over the usefulleness and point of rankings, but the fact is that he publishes them and they are referenced in papers and by the KHSAA at the state tournament.  So there needs to be some level of credibility (as has been brought up before).  By producing what we saw last week I think it makes everyone question if the KWCA has any idea what is going on around the state.  And as a few of us (very credible posters) have pointed out, we have personally sent information to Coach Coomes in the past that was flat out ignored.

By the way, if you have found a million things wrong with my rankings then I guess you must be sitting on a load of info that you haven't passed on as well.

[dragonballz 0]

rankings make kids feel good about their hard work. they also give the parents some thing to brag about at work. if you look at any ranking there is always going to be disagreements. i see kids in both that dont belong and can think of others that do. one thing i do know....the good up and comers use them as a hit list.