marriedtothemat 13 Report post Posted February 25, 2015 If you really want to make a fair comparison, look at the percentage of kids participating who were actually youth aged in those weights compared to the weights in high school. I'm totally guessing, but I would expect the lightest 5 weights in middle school have a very high percentage of youth aged kids participating in middle school, at least much higher than the lightest 5 weights in high school. Just looking at Ranger's rankings, there are way more kids that are youth aged in those 5 lightest weight classes compared to the amount of middle school kids ranked in high school. How many middle school kids actually weigh 70lbs or less? I'm an average sized adult and was average sized in 8th grade and I weighed over 120lbs. Lets face it, those weight classes are filled with youth aged kids, hence you are going to have a high percentage of youth aged champions coming from those weights. All the more reason to let them wrestle at youth state! That was my point to raidercoach. You can't compare middle school placers that are eligible for youth state and high schooler placers that are eligible for middle state. The middle schoolers don't have the same success at high school as youth do at middle school. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 25, 2015 That was my point to raidercoach. You can't compare middle school placers that are eligible for youth state and high schooler placers that are eligible for middle state. The middle schoolers don't have the same success at high school as youth do at middle school. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Its not comparing apples to oranges when you eliminate those weights at middle school that are filled with youth aged kids. If you look at the weights in high school that actually have a higher percentage of middle school kids participating, they are obviously more successful. If you had an 85lb weight class in high school, don't you think you'd have many more successful middle school kids? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Braves coach 82 Report post Posted February 25, 2015 The Association has to decide is youth wrestlings main objective: GROWTH or competitiveness ? I don't believe you can have both. I personally think it is absurd that a wrestler of the correct age is not allowed to compete due to their placing at MS State! What's the next rule, they can't compete if they place at a national event? That being said; Somehow, I was elected VP of the youth. I was lead to believe that growth at the youth level was priority. #1. If that is truly the case, I would keep all MS placers out of youth. Top 6. This would keep youth state a feel good tournament. Before the haters jump all over me Rember this is not my personal belief but my position as VP. The association is clear GROWTH is our top priority!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 25, 2015 The Association has to decide is youth wrestlings main objective: GROWTH or competitiveness ? I don't believe you can have both. I personally think it is absurd that a wrestler of the correct age is not allowed to compete due to their placing at MS State! What's the next rule, they can't compete if they place at a national event? That being said; Somehow, I was elected VP of the youth. I was lead to believe that growth at the youth level was priority. #1. If that is truly the case, I would keep all MS placers out of youth. Top 6. This would keep youth state a feel good tournament. Before the haters jump all over me Rember this is not my personal belief but my position as VP. The association is clear GROWTH is our top priority!! I don't understand this thinking at all. What evidence does anyone have that by allowing these kids to compete, we are somehow restricting our growth? If we are going to make a rule that takes opportunities AWAY from kids who earned it to compete, I would hope that decision would be based on common sense and/or evidence. How does having these kids in the tournament hurt growth? Can anyone give one example or piece of evidence that justifies that claim? Saying that we just want other kids to have opportunities to medal or possibly win the tournament that probably wouldn't had these kids wrestled does not have any correlation to growth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westKYwrestling 2 Report post Posted February 25, 2015 Does anyone know if their was more kids this year at the tournament than last year? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLee 68 Report post Posted February 25, 2015 I had a wrestler decide not to attend KY youth tournaments because of lack of competition. He's no longer in our club because they wanted more than what KY youth wrestling (and us) could offer. There were other factors, but you could probably make a better argument that weaker competiton hinders growth, not helps. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Braves coach 82 Report post Posted February 25, 2015 My suggestion: All coaches concerned show up to the spring meeting. Force a vote with all your concerns. Accept the vote or continue complaining and do nothing. Leave me off the next ballot! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 25, 2015 The Association has to decide is youth wrestlings main objective: GROWTH or competitiveness ? I don't believe you can have both. I personally think it is absurd that a wrestler of the correct age is not allowed to compete due to their placing at MS State! What's the next rule, they can't compete if they place at a national event? That being said; Somehow, I was elected VP of the youth. I was lead to believe that growth at the youth level was priority. #1. If that is truly the case, I would keep all MS placers out of youth. Top 6. This would keep youth state a feel good tournament. Before the haters jump all over me Rember this is not my personal belief but my position as VP. The association is clear GROWTH is our top priority!! If you want growth, offer up $500 and a trophy to the team at state that has the highest percentage of growth compared to year prior. Nothing motivates like the almighty dollar. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jbrown1405 11 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Youth winning Middle School State Championships isn't that common. How many 3 time State Champions are there? Last year was only the 3,4,and 5 time a 5th grader has won. 70 pound winners last 3 years 13 Zeke Escalera 5th geade 12 Zach Holub 8th grade 11 Tanner Yenter 8th grade. USA National Duals start at 75 KY is about the only team that has any youth on there team. The ones that are winning the national duals don't have any. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Braves coach 82 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 I nominate raidercoach for the next VP. Good luck to you sir. This doesn't work in reality like it does in your mind/heart! I accepted the position with positive aspirations for change as well . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLee 68 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 This might be an odd year, but it looks like every placer from 70-80 #'s are youth wrestlers. 18 of 18 kids. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sbfraz 8 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 The biggest issue I see with trying to compare youth kids wrestling MS to MS kids wrestling HS is that there is a huge overlap in MS/youth eligibility. Most MS wrestlers are still youth eligible until 8th grade, so saying those brackets are full of youth kids is a mute point. Only the 7th graders with late birth days or held back kids are not youth eligible prior to 8th grade. Of course those brackets are full of youth kids. Many states do have 70 and 75 pound MS weight classes. IN, OH, And IA are three huge wrestling states that do. There are many more but no need to list them all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 The biggest issue I see with trying to compare youth kids wrestling MS to MS kids wrestling HS is that there is a huge overlap in MS/youth eligibility. Most MS wrestlers are still youth eligible until 8th grade, so saying those brackets are full of youth kids is a mute point. Only the 7th graders with late birth days or held back kids are not youth eligible prior to 8th grade. Of course those brackets are full of youth kids. Many states do have 70 and 75 pound MS weight classes. IN, OH, And IA are three huge wrestling states that do. There are many more but no need to list them all. You are actually making my point. EVERY middle school kid is technially elgibile to wrestle in high school unless their high school doesn't allow it. Yet why aren't there as many middle school aged kids placing at high school state compared to youth aged kids placing at middle school state? It has nothing to do with elgibility...its the weight classes. Our lowest weights in middle school are not reflective of what middle school kids weigh, hence they are filled with youth aged kids. High school weights do a better job of reflecting what high school kids weigh, hence there are more high school aged kids placing at the high school state tournament. If high school had an 80lb and 90lb weight class, don't you think we'd have a lot more middle school kids placing and winning those weights? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sbfraz 8 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 MS starts at 6th grade where we live, so according to that, all the champions except for one are MS kids. Actually, I believe all the champions were 6th grade or higher. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLee 68 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Not sure of grade, but birth years of youth in KY is 2002 and younger. Not 100%, but I bet the vast majority of our participants and placers from 70 to 80 were 12 or under. OH starts at 74, not 70. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sbfraz 8 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Not sure of grade, but birth years of youth in KY is 2002 and younger. Not 100%, but I bet the vast majority of our participants and placers from 70 to 80 were 12 or under. OH starts at 74, not 70. Right on the 74, but the post I was referring to said we may be the only state with 70 or 75. I would venture to say almost every state has 75 and many have 70. I really don't care if MS placers can wrestle youth state. My point is just that most actual MS kids are still youth eligible until 8th grade. There is an overlap between the two. For example, 2002 is schoolboy which is officially MS on the national level. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jbrown1405 11 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 How many 12th graders are 106 probably about the same 8th graders at 70lbs. Look who is favorites at 106 freshmen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marriedtothemat 13 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Correct me if I am wrong but does the rule for youth state read must not turn 13 by January 1st?? If that is the case then my son who has a late January birthday would be 13 and still be eligible for youth state. That just blows my mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REscalera 189 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Braves Coach---I love the breath of fresh air. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REscalera 189 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Raider Coach----if your youth wrestler placed in the top 4 at middle school state and wishes he hadn't so that he could've wrestled in the youth tournament then I see a problem with that. Maybe too much of a focus on winning and not really seeing the big picture. I hope that you, as his coach, helped him see the folly in that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raidercoach 51 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 How many 12th graders are 106 probably about the same 8th graders at 70lbs. Look who is favorites at 106 freshmen. Of the 29 kids in Ranger's rankings at 106, only 5 are in middle school. Obviously, there is a much higher percentage of youth aged kids wrestling at the lowest weights at middle school. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLee 68 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 I don't believe I've ever had an 8th grader eligible for youth state. That cannot be common. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sbfraz 8 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 I don't believe I've ever had an 8th grader eligible for youth state. That cannot be common. But, the majority of 7th graders are hence the overlap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REscalera 189 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Marriedtothemat---blows my mind too. 2002 is schoolboy at USA national wrestling tournaments this year. Our years were off. It should have started with 03-04. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sbfraz 8 Report post Posted February 26, 2015 Marriedtothemat---blows my mind too. 2002 is schoolboy at USA national wrestling tournaments this year. Our years were off. It should have started with 03-04. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. There is way too much overlap between youth and MS. Youth should be for elementary kids. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
