385 109 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 170 looks evenly spread out and wide open--Is Ryan Woolf a favorite now? Top 3 ranked wrestlers in the state are on the same side of the bracket. Not very even in my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Top 3 ranked wrestlers in the state are on the same side of the bracket. Not very even in my opinion. That's only if the rankings are 100% accurate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger123 43 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 That's only if the rankings are 100% accurate. Well that's a given GOO! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
takedownartist 6 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 The KHSAA or coaches association should have an official person that works for either of the two parties rank the kids. Week of state after regions, seed the wrestlers based on criteria/rankings as if it were a reg tournament up to say top 4, after that their all about equal anyway. Heck after top 2 or 3 there's a big drop off in skill set. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger123 43 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 I think you need the coaches input. They would revolt if it was left up to one person and I would agree. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Who at KHSAA would be qualified to do this? Heck hardly any of them know what a half nelson is or a single leg. I however would have no problem if they picked the top 4 regional champs in each wt. class and separated them with a random draw. That way the supposed top 4 would not meet until the semi's. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firemans34 33 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Ranger, I don't think I've ever put you on the spot.....BUT will there be a 2015 Ranger Report? I make no demands, just wondering. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Well that's a given GOO! Oh snap !?!? How could I forget. Ranger, I don't think I've ever put you on the spot.....BUT will there be a 2015 Ranger Report? I make no demands, just wondering. With all this snow and no practice you should have all the time in the world. (looking over my shoulder to make sure there is not a baseball bat heading my way) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger123 43 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Ha ha. Snow doesn't slow down my real work schedule (I work from home full time). Updated rankings coming later tonight. Dutch and I will be chatting later working on the tournament preview. Hope to post it by Wednesday morning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
takedownartist 6 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Coaches would be there for the seed meeting, it would be like a reg tournament. Seeds based on record, head to head, previous state finish ect. As others have posted, having the top 3 guys in one side of the bracket is a crime for everyone involved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger123 43 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Oh I agree 10000%. That's why I pushed to seed the ms state tournament and those coaches have proven it can be done. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Playing devils advocate here. When would this meeting happen? And how would all the coaches be there? Are the WKy teams going to travel all the way to Frankfort, then back home again? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
takedownartist 6 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Hypothetically it would happen sometime after regions prior to state obviously. That is a good question I do not have an anwser for, coaches would have to show up to be heard. IMO coaches who refused to show up and wanted to come in morning of state and do seeds should be left out of the conversation, why should a few ruin it for the masses? Seeding is the responsible and right thing for ky wrestling, imo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger123 43 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 The ms has done this the last 2 years with no issues (to my knowledge). We have a conference call the Sunday or Monday night after region. This year the call lasted less than 2 hrs. (Including delays for background noise and waiting for all the beeps to stop as folks dial in and doing a roll call). It's not really all that hard. We have about 90% participation rate. The couple of coaches who don't participate just have their kids thrown in unless another coach has information to share. Actually, it would be easier for HS because of all the information on track. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
neverbreak 10 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Why your at it lets just not seed the NCAA's or the Big ten championships, that should go well LOL. Seeds are done for a reason in all the big sporting events, sometimes there are upsets yes but Ive watched several state finals where the top 4-5 guys are on one side and the best one prevails wrestling someone who couldnt beat one one of those 4-5 guys and the finals is awful, a tech fall or a pin in the first period So yeah that randown draw is pretty good, always gets the best two guys in the finals Sounds like you or someone close to you was bit in the butt by the random draw. I myself met my demise in the semis 2 years in a row lost to the #1 guy both times once as the 3rd ranked guy and once as the 2nd ranked guy! My senior year all but two of the state placers came from my side of the bracket. So, I feel your pain, if my previous statement is true. I still think trying to seed the state tourney would be a nightmare and would not change the outcome other than possibly the finals match-up. When it all shakes out the champ is still undefeated while second and third still have one lose. What I am saying is the top guy is going to come through regardless! Hypothetically it would happen sometime after regions prior to state obviously. That is a good question I do not have an anwser for, coaches would have to show up to be heard. IMO coaches who refused to show up and wanted to come in morning of state and do seeds should be left out of the conversation, why should a few ruin it for the masses? Seeding is the responsible and right thing for ky wrestling, imo Though the phone conference would negate the whole argument I am about to make, just bare with me while I try to explain the life of most coaches. Those few that are left out might have a wife and small kids or teach in the district where they give up personal days to even coach on Friday of the State Tourney. I for one know if they had an in person seed meeting a third or better of the coaches would not make the meeting due to other responsibilities (i.e. job, family, cost not only personal but from the school district, travel to a from, etc.). So anything other than a phone conference and the idea of seeding is out the window. Who at KHSAA would be qualified to do this? Heck hardly any of them know what a half nelson is or a single leg. I however would have no problem if they picked the top 4 regional champs in each wt. class and separated them with a random draw. That way the supposed top 4 would not meet until the semi's. Sorry GOO I usually agree with what you say, but here I disagree. If you only seed the "top 4" (barring the rankings are correct), you are still throwing 28 guys into the random draw. Even if you seeded the top 8 region champs, that leaves 24 random draws. Now my point with only seeding region champs, some regions have 4 of the top 8 ranked guys so the brackets could be top heavy still. You can never completely eliminate the lopsided brackets without seeding based off of some other criteria, other than region champs being seeded. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
takedownartist 6 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Never break, no that is not the case. I wrestled when they had district region state and qualifying was quite difficult. I didn't realize that seeding a high school tournament was harder than seeding the NCAA,S, I missed that memo. The difference with the finals is great match between two great wrestlers vs one great wrestler and one guy who really doesn't deserve to be there and ends up getting teched or pined. That's part of a responsibility of being a head coach, if you can't commit then don't put your name down as head coach, be the assistant. Seeding is in the future of this great sport Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
neverbreak 10 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 I also wrestled pre 2002 (the first 32 man state tourney). Not sure what that has to do with the discussion, but okay! I have no idea how hard it is or isn't to seed the NCAA's. (please fill us in!) Also, I do know how hard it is (in some years) to seed a regional tourney and in most cases you are only seeding top 6 not 8 and the bracket is 16 men or less. So I could imagine seeding the state would be just as hard if not harder. Especially when factoring in teams like region 6 who have very few in state matches and going off of a ranking system mostly done by one or two people. You keep working hard to get the state tournament seeded and I will enjoy watching what is still (regardless of random draw or seeding) the greatest show in the state of Kentucky maybe even the world. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
takedownartist 6 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 I see that reason and reality are not on your radar. Generally people who are anti change don't seem to quite grasp the big picture and that's what's best for the kids, remember the ones actually wrestling here lol. And those people are left out of the decision making process all together Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
8798 45 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Last year on this forum we were talking about seeding the State Tournament and I believe it was GOO who had a great idea. We run the current Regionals as Districts, which they essentially were before the 32 man bracket at State, and allow the top five to qualify for a Regional tournament the next weekend. The Regional would consist of two combined Districts, again what they used to do, and the top eight qualify for State...wrestling back to ninth for the alternate. This way, we allow the kids to seed themselves based on their performances. The seeds would be 1 vs 8, 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6, and 4 vs 5. This would separate the 1s and if the best two kids were in the same regional, it would keep them in opposite brackets. I understand this makes for three weekends rather than two, but we would just start the series one weekend earlier. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Oh Geez someone actually listened and maybe even agreed with me. Man there must be a really really big earthquake coming or a huge comet coming our way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
B10grapple 7 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 I would stop short of 'doesn't deserve to be there' for any kid that made the final. You talk about seeding it, but honestly that isn't a perfect system either. Honestly go back to last year, where would Brandon Johnson have been seeded...6th? Didn't he pin through and in the first period everyone? The state in my opinion is not yet big enough in the sport to justify a 3 weekend 'playoff'. Are there kids in the tournament you wouldn't rank as the top 32 for the weight class? Absolutely. I believe I even saw a few losing records. If it is going to be seeded it would be best at this point to just seed a general consensus of say the top 16 and let them random draw from the rest, then go from there. Even in the very deep 138, this should allow the cream to rise to the top while still allowing for one of the others to have a chance. I'm definitely not against seeding the tournament, but there has to be a logical method that fits the field and the sport in the state. 3 weeks just seems a bit much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 B10grapple: Three weeks of wrestling happened for about 30 years. We have only had the 32 man bracket for about 13 years with no district. And as far as I can remember no one ever asked about seeding the state tourney when there was the three weeks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
8798 45 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 I would stop short of 'doesn't deserve to be there' for any kid that made the final. You talk about seeding it, but honestly that isn't a perfect system either. Honestly go back to last year, where would Brandon Johnson have been seeded...6th? Didn't he pin through and in the first period everyone? The state in my opinion is not yet big enough in the sport to justify a 3 weekend 'playoff'. Are there kids in the tournament you wouldn't rank as the top 32 for the weight class? Absolutely. I believe I even saw a few losing records. If it is going to be seeded it would be best at this point to just seed a general consensus of say the top 16 and let them random draw from the rest, then go from there. Even in the very deep 138, this should allow the cream to rise to the top while still allowing for one of the others to have a chance. I'm definitely not against seeding the tournament, but there has to be a logical method that fits the field and the sport in the state. 3 weeks just seems a bit much. If we feel we are large enough to allow 32 wrestlers at state...which is debatable...I think it appropriate to consider a three weekend series. (We actually had three weekends when we allowed only 16 in State and it worked quite well.) Doing so allows the kids to determine their seedings and it takes the rest of us out of the equation. Seed the first meet in the series and then let the kids determine where they end up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 One of the reasons the MS is able to seed is because they do have a district, region and state. Its a 16 man bracket (not saying I want to return to this) with only 8 regional champs to seed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
neverbreak 10 Report post Posted February 17, 2015 Why act like I am lost on reality and reason. Seems a person who keeps kicking a dead horse would be the one out of touch with reality. Like I said in my previous post, You can keep kicking the dead horse trying to changing the minds of the KHSAA on a message board. Has anyone of any importance tried to submit a proposal to the KHSAA takedownartist have you? In order to do it right the whole post season schedule would have to be different. Finally, your comment about the "kids" what is the difference between second and third? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
