Weight classes and weigh ins in youth wrestling

[J.W. 21]

As we get ready for the off season meetings, the many discussions that take place theoughout the year between coaches (without the history lessons and emotions)......

How many coaches, teams would like to see kentucky wrestling begin transitioning to standardized weight classes, weigh ins?

Just a poll, no persuasion, emotion or animosity needed or intended!

[Bluesdad 73]

This guy would

[sbfraz 8]

We would

[MLee 68]

Loaded question...

 

Not me

[tiltfor3 20]

Affirmative

[JC1 4]

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[Chris Duke 284]

YES, Yes, YES 

[G.W.S 2]

Without a doubt. Yes to weigh-in and weight classes

[raidercoach 51]

No to weight classes.

Yes to weigh ins for qualifying tournaments and state.

[MLee 68]

"My question is why would you not support, weigh-ins before an event? 
Every coaches submits the roster with names and weight class prior to the events to build brackets or then you can match up the kids accordingly, 10% rule or whatever other means.....
Keep everyone honest and safety for all....Confused why anyone would object..."

 

Let me be clear.  I'm ALL for weigh ins, but I don't mind the way we do them now.  The problem is...not everyone is doing them! 

 

I would be in favor of set weight classes if we could prohibit weight cutting (never going to happen) and have manageable bracket sizes (I haven't seen a format that looks good yet).

 

If someone has a set weight class format you like, please let me know.  I'll gladly run the #'s and post the results.   

[sbfraz 8]

What were the results of the weight checks at state? We're there many discrepancies? Those results would give a good idea if the current system of club weigh ins is legit.

[J.W. 21]

Cmon, i wanted a poll without influence and you have to try to argue your point. It is as bad as having a president that does not care what the people think. Let your thoughts go and let people have a say.

[MLee 68]

JW, I had someone PM me a message (in quotes) about weigh ins; therefore, I felt the need to respond.  I highly doubt my comments will influence the 6 people that read and care about this issue.  If you haven't noticed, it seems to be the same 5-10 people voicing the same opinions. 

And by the way, if I recall, I forwarded you the master spreadsheet last year.  You said you'd like to look at the kids weights to see if you could create a format that would be better.  It's been a year..come up with anything?

[J.W. 21]

I came up with you watched an 8 to 1 vote going on and couldnt control yourself from the mlee history lesson. 8 to your one on weigh ins. I think it migh be 7 to 2 on weight classes.

But what do others opinions really matter, when you put so much stock into yours.

[MLee 68]

JW, you are far off w/ your analysis. I respect everyone's opinion. Not sure where that came from. I loved your idea on stalling. I think it should get implemented.

 

But as a reminder, we had this debate a year ago.  Versus picking apart the current system, come up w/ a better format, that is all I ask. I'm not sure what good it does to get a few people all fired up about it. It doesn't help...it only continues to drive a wedge between various parts of the state. You seem to be very passionate about changing it. Once again, I'll send you THIS year's master spreadsheet..give it another try and propose your new format at the spring meeting. I look forward to hearing it.

[raidercoach 51]

I came up with you watched an 8 to 1 vote going on and couldnt control yourself from the mlee history lesson. 8 to your one on weigh ins. I think it migh be 7 to 2 on weight classes.

But what do others opinions really matter, when you put so much stock into yours.

Lets call a spade a spade. Many of the people on here aren't coaches and have very little experience with the sport as a coach or a participant. Does a vote on a message board from a parent who doesn't coach and never wrestled mean as much as someone's vote who actually coaches and has been in this sport for over 25 years....I say absolutely not. You can put all the stock you want in these random votes while deciding to "ignore the history lesson", but its hardly accurate nor is it any indication of what is actually good for the sport.

[raidercoach 51]

I came up with you watched an 8 to 1 vote going on and couldnt control yourself from the mlee history lesson. 8 to your one on weigh ins. I think it migh be 7 to 2 on weight classes.

But what do others opinions really matter, when you put so much stock into yours.

Furthermore, you are one to criticize someone for "not controlling yourself". I personally witnessed you getting thrown out of a youth tournament for not "controlling yourself". You don't have the experience, knowledge, respect of the state, nor temperament to lead the youth association in any way. All you attempt to do is divide the state with your broken record debates.

[J.W. 21]

I have never been thrown out of a youth, hmiddle school or high school event, and yes i have coached at each level in this state and others. Wrong guy on that false accusation. But good try.

As far as splitting the state isnt it coaches from your program that always threaten to .head to the cywl.

I want change for the better and alot of others want the same thing. If you choose not to liaten because of selfish pride, you will find a split. Not what i want but also not afraid of it if it is good for the sport to allow a league that grows not only in quantity but also in quality and performance.

Again, this was to give people an honest chance to express their vote and you find a way to make it a personal issue. Read the original post and it specifically said take emotion out of it, again you could not do it.

[raidercoach 51]

I have never been thrown out of a youth, hmiddle school or high school event, and yes i have coached at each level in this state and others. Wrong guy on that false accusation. But good try.

As far as splitting the state isnt it coaches from your program that always threaten to .head to the cywl.

I want change for the better and alot of others want the same thing. If you choose not to liaten because of selfish pride, you will find a split. Not what i want but also not afraid of it if it is good for the sport to allow a league that grows not only in quantity but also in quality and performance.

Again, this was to give people an honest chance to express their vote and you find a way to make it a personal issue. Read the original post and it specifically said take emotion out of it, again you could not do it.

There were many people there who witnessed you getting escorted out of the state tournament two years ago after blowing up after a loss. You can deny it if you want, but many people know the truth.

You must be pretty arrogant to think your proposed changes could improve the tremendous success our youth has had under the current system. What evidence do you have to support that your changes are going to "improve things"? What exactly are you going to improve? Are you suggesting that our youth wrestlers have only improved in quantity and not quality? If so, you are way off base. The quality of wrestling in this state at every level has never been better and this is the direct result of youth wrestling. How are you so sure that your changes are going to improve our PROVEN success?

You claim our coaches "always threaten to head to the CYWL". We have never threatened anyone..who would we be threatening? CYWL have an awesome tournament that happens to be scheduled the same time as our regional tournament and we considered attending it instead of our regional tournament. I don't know why that would bother you or anyone outside of our region considering most regions don't have a regional tournament. The fact is our program has done nothing but support our entire state which has been proven with our involvement with hosting or helping host the state tournament since I can remember and letting kids from neighboring programs attend our practices. What have you done?...other than try to tinker with a proven system while offering no solutions (we're all still waiting with bated breath on your response to Coach Lee about the weight classes.....from last year).

I respect everyone's opinion, but sometimes we have too many chiefs and not enough indians. Most of the people who are on here and are supporting weight classes weren't around when we tried that. They didn't see that we had to have 4 70 lb brackets, while having many brackets with only 2 or 3 kids. The people who are demanding weigh ins, probably haven't helped run a youth tournament with 300 kids, much less 1000 kids. Most of which won't be around when their kid moves up to middle school. They aren't thinking long term because they won't be around long term. You don't want a history lesson, but how can you be educated on this when you didn't experience these issues? You are making assumptions that you can improve things while ignoring the history that got us here while not presenting one shred of evidence that it will improve anything.

[sbfraz 8]

I honestly don't care about weight classes nearly as much as I do weigh ins. Lets find a way to make weigh ins work. I agree that weighing the morning of the tournament is not feasible. Maybe we can have 4 tournaments the weekend before state that anyone can attend and do weigh ins at these tourneys. That way we could have some legitimate competition instead of the current regional system that we have in place. It just seems that we have too many regions, some very large and others extremely small.

Our region only had about 50 wrestlers. Each school is over an hour from the other. It's just not ideal. If there were 4 options around the state that teams could choose from, it would make for decent tourneys. Then we do official weigh ins that morning and use those weights for state. If we do if all in track, we can spit the brackets out pretty quickly.

[J.W. 21]

My comment was about the quality of the state tournament, I mean state gathering.  All of your facts always relate to growing and numbers. 

 

I understand you had problems with brackets when you only had 400 kids state wide wrestling, and no I was not here then.  But you have grown to over 900 kids last year.  over 900 kids this year.  I think the growing part is fine, it is now time to have a regional qualifier, and have weight classes that determine state champions.

 

Again, for you another time - I was not escorted out, thrown out, or even asked to leave the tournament.  It was the last match of the day that you are referring to, a NH boy wrestling a Raider kid.  The referee made about 10 horrible calls, both ways.  2 more referees came down to the mat and made it even more of a debaucle.  I walked away from the mat when the match was over and made a comment to the one of the officials that they should be ashamed to wear stripes.  And I think they should be.  If we were as bad at coaching as some of the officials are at officiating, I would quit coaching and I think you would to.  No reason the guys in the corner should know the rulebook better than the official calling the match - it is their profession. 

 

Furthermore - send me the list, with the kids actual weights (you can't do that because nobody knows the actual weights), region they are assigned, and I will look at it based off of weight classes.

 

I also have another proposal that would meet the intent of all that we can discuss or you can just shoot them down, make false claims on peoples character, and defend your point to the bitter end like it is the only one that matters.    Your choice, let me know.

[raidercoach 51]

My comment was about the quality of the state tournament, I mean state gathering. All of your facts always relate to growing and numbers.

I understand you had problems with brackets when you only had 400 kids state wide wrestling, and no I was not here then. But you have grown to over 900 kids last year. over 900 kids this year. I think the growing part is fine, it is now time to have a regional qualifier, and have weight classes that determine state champions.

Again, for you another time - I was not escorted out, thrown out, or even asked to leave the tournament. It was the last match of the day that you are referring to, a NH boy wrestling a Raider kid. The referee made about 10 horrible calls, both ways. 2 more referees came down to the mat and made it even more of a debaucle. I walked away from the mat when the match was over and made a comment to the one of the officials that they should be ashamed to wear stripes. And I think they should be. If we were as bad at coaching as some of the officials are at officiating, I would quit coaching and I think you would to. No reason the guys in the corner should know the rulebook better than the official calling the match - it is their profession.

Furthermore - send me the list, with the kids actual weights (you can't do that because nobody knows the actual weights), region they are assigned, and I will look at it based off of weight classes.

I also have another proposal that would meet the intent of all that we can discuss or you can just shoot them down, make false claims on peoples character, and defend your point to the bitter end like it is the only one that matters. Your choice, let me know.

You asked Coach Lee to send you the brackets so you could work your magic LAST year...he did, and you did NOTHING. What makes you think anyone is interested in YOU fixing problems that don't exist.

For the record, our state tournament does have weigh ins. Every team is supposed to weigh in. I agree that we need to formalize how it is done to prevent any cheating or concerns of cheating. Our region weighs everyone in as a region, so I am confident we do it right. I can't speak for other teams and regions, but all of us should be doing it the same way.

Regional qualifiers and weight classes present consequences that I believe outweigh the benefits. First, it would be next to impossible to have the tournament at Alltech if we have half the participants. We'd end up having it at a high school or middle school gym. That would be a HUGE deterrent in my opinion. Having it there the day after high school makes that tournament special. Having it at a high school or middle school gym would make it just any other tournament. Having regions as a qualifier would never work because of the distribution of participants significantly favor a few areas over others. We'd have to set it up like other states with select tournaments as "qualifiers" which would be easy to do, if we wanted to have state in a high school gym. You act as 900 kids is significant. In my opinion we shouldn't think about qualifiers until we double that.

Your mockery of our "state gathering" shows your intent. You believe it should be more competitive, intense, and more prestigious, like our middle and high school tournaments. This is where I think you lose sight of what should be the goals of youth wrestling, particularly in our state. We are introducing this sport to kids, some as young as 5 years old, and families and are still very much in the EARLY growth stages. When parents see people like you act the way you did after that loss, they get turned off. Winning a youth state tournament in any state is not prestigious. There is never a reason to act that way in front of young kids. Someone who acts the way you did in front of a couple of 7 year olds shouldn't be lecturing to people like Coach Lee about your vision of what we should be doing better.

[J.W. 21]

Its not about working magic, as you say, and I understand supporting something you believe in, but it it is not what everybody wants statewide, why is it so hard to allow others to voice an opinion, discuss things.  You always want facts, I was trying to get a poll of the facts. Numbers of people who want change and numbers who don't.  The only thing know right now is there were a number of people starting to voice their opinion and it was overtaken by you trying to call me out on somehting totally outside the subject. 

 

I did run the numbers and ran them again this year - but the only thing that will show is some brackets are huge and others are small, but that would not be the case if you ran a regional or a points system throughout the year which limited each weight class to no more than 16 qualifiers.  Some work would have to be done to figure out the right way, but that is what committees do, its not impossible. 

 

With the current number of kids with the turned-in weights, utilizing USA Weight Classes and age groups, if you limited each bracket to 16 person brackets - you would have had 653 kids wrestling that day.with forty of those brackets having between 10 and 16 wrestlers, four having 7-8 wrestlers, and six brackets having 5 or less kids.  That would be a total of 60 brackets. 

 

I agree, that if your intent is to allow every single kid who buys wrestling shoes to come, than it is crazy on the size of some brackets.  Largest ones being: 46, 45 and 40.  Two of them would be at 34, one at 31 and twenty of them in the 20's.  The 20's would be doable, but over 30 would be ridiculous to keep at double elimination.

 

Yes I understand that there were 300 more kids involved in the tournament, but we could probably have a "Rookie" State tournament every year that would allow wrestlers with 2 years and less experience to wrestle and become a Rookie State Champion, provide another club or team an opportunity to host a pretty big event.  This would also allow those 1st and 2nd Year wrestlers that are 10 and 11 to wrestle in a tournament where they aren't 3 and 4 years behind in experience.  Still meeting the introduction stage.

 

I don't have the region breakdown or the team list to start trying to figure out regions, I would like to look at it.  Not saying I am right and you are wrong, just saying that there are others that would like to see some change and anytime people talk about it, you turn it into a childish argument instead of the topics. 

 

 I will ask again that you grow up, act like a professional, and quit trying to paint a bad picture of me.  You are overexageratting an issue to try to steer the conversation away.

[raidercoach 51]

Its not about working magic, as you say, and I understand supporting something you believe in, but it it is not what everybody wants statewide, why is it so hard to allow others to voice an opinion, discuss things. You always want facts, I was trying to get a poll of the facts. Numbers of people who want change and numbers who don't. The only thing know right now is there were a number of people starting to voice their opinion and it was overtaken by you trying to call me out on somehting totally outside the subject.

I did run the numbers and ran them again this year - but the only thing that will show is some brackets are huge and others are small, but that would not be the case if you ran a regional or a points system throughout the year which limited each weight class to no more than 16 qualifiers. Some work would have to be done to figure out the right way, but that is what committees do, its not impossible.

With the current number of kids with the turned-in weights, utilizing USA Weight Classes and age groups, if you limited each bracket to 16 person brackets - you would have had 653 kids wrestling that day.with forty of those brackets having between 10 and 16 wrestlers, four having 7-8 wrestlers, and six brackets having 5 or less kids. That would be a total of 60 brackets.

I agree, that if your intent is to allow every single kid who buys wrestling shoes to come, than it is crazy on the size of some brackets. Largest ones being: 46, 45 and 40. Two of them would be at 34, one at 31 and twenty of them in the 20's. The 20's would be doable, but over 30 would be ridiculous to keep at double elimination.

Yes I understand that there were 300 more kids involved in the tournament, but we could probably have a "Rookie" State tournament every year that would allow wrestlers with 2 years and less experience to wrestle and become a Rookie State Champion, provide another club or team an opportunity to host a pretty big event. This would also allow those 1st and 2nd Year wrestlers that are 10 and 11 to wrestle in a tournament where they aren't 3 and 4 years behind in experience. Still meeting the introduction stage.

I don't have the region breakdown or the team list to start trying to figure out regions, I would like to look at it. Not saying I am right and you are wrong, just saying that there are others that would like to see some change and anytime people talk about it, you turn it into a childish argument instead of the topics.

I will ask again that you grow up, act like a professional, and quit trying to paint a bad picture of me. You are overexageratting an issue to try to steer the conversation away.

All you have ever done on these boards is criticize the state tournament and offend the hard working people who put the association together and help run the tournament. I'm meerly defending those people because I personally know them, their good intentions, and how hard they work. You clearly like stirring the pot, which is demonstrated by your broken record debates about the same topics every year. Bring your ideas to the Spring meeting and we'll see how they are received. I'll attempt to refrain from going back and forth with you until then.

[raidercoach 51]

My solution to everything is move to 16 man brackets using 10%, place the top 6, and demand every region weigh in with a certified official.