Youth Wrestling in High School

[Tim Reynolds 7]

This question reminds of the debate a generation ago. I'm not sure when it ended, sometime in the late 1980s I think, but the DII and DIII national champs and AAs were allowed to compete in the NCAA DI national tournament. Most failed to reach AA status at the DI level but a few dominated--anyone heard of Carleton Haselrig for Pitt-Johnstown? The NCAA disallowed in part because of fairness issues. The lower division wrestlers didn't have the grind, it was argued, during the season and were more fresh in March.

I'm not saying any of that applies to middle school kids. I just believe that a kid should be a kid and worry about high school championships when he's actually in high school. I don't begrudge any kid or his coach/parents who wrestles up. I can't help but think of Felipe Martinez who was virtually burned out in many folks' opinions by his senior year.

[JCB0577 17]

This question reminds of the debate a generation ago. I'm not sure when it ended, sometime in the late 1980s I think, but the DII and DIII national champs and AAs were allowed to compete in the NCAA DI national tournament. Most failed to reach AA status at the DI level but a few dominated--anyone heard of Carleton Haselrig for Pitt-Johnstown? The NCAA disallowed in part because of fairness issues. The lower division wrestlers didn't have the grind, it was argued, during the season and were more fresh in March.

I'm not saying any of that applies to middle school kids. I just believe that a kid should be a kid and worry about high school championships when he's actually in high school. I don't begrudge any kid or his coach/parents who wrestles up. I can't help but think of Felipe Martinez who was virtually burned out in many folks' opinions by his senior year.

In my opinion if you are good enough, then why not wrestle varsity as a middle schooler. My example is Johnny Meiman. He qualified for state as a 7th and 8th grader at a heavier weight class. Last year as a 8th grader he beat the state runner up in regions and also put Kevin Cooper on his back in the finals at regions. If the kids are gamers why not let them show off their talent.

[Mpire 76]

Felipe is a great kid but a but out of the mold of most Graham wrestlers e had a lot of skill and a wild spirit great kid I really liked him and his family a bit of a showman and that made

Me like him even more the graham schedule may have burnt him a but but I would not Doubt there was a lot more going on up there , because I know there was.

He was the most talked about and feared wrestler in jr high history in oh with the exception of maybe Taylor ,

I know some other past jr high kid that spread some fear but Felipe talked the smack himself , he had many skills I loved his honesty even if it was a compliment for someone wrestling one of his own teammates he said why he felt , very admirable .

[Tim Reynolds 7]

Read on another site Felipe is in Kansas at a junior college and is wrestling again. Hope he succeeds as there were some awful keyboard cowards ripping him the last few years in Ohio.

Seems like this is like debating the election. Everyone has an opinion and minds aren't being changed.

[Mat Addict 20]

I totally agree with JCB0577, if you are good enough to show up these high school wrestlers, why not do it? For example, I have seen middle school kids that wrestle extremely well in High School tourneys and impress the coaches of high school teams across the state. My point is would'nt it be great to impress the coach of one of your possible future schools? Because then when you actually get to high school to already know the coach and some of the wrestlers, so it is easier to adapt to the high school setting.

[Mpire 76]

Good point I guess . I would like to think it was all honorable and focused towards the wrestler themselves improving , the comment about coaches getting to know the kids hints of dirty politics , I never thought of it as a coach getting to know a kid an impressing them and in case anyone never noticed and I think I hit the nail on the head the better public school kids generally disappear by fresh yr to a private school so getting to know a HS coach is kind of pointless , im sure people would debate my point but I have too many examples within a 100 mile range of where I'm setting . Guaranteed over half the jr champs"well over " and many placers in our area and it is Cincy area all ended up at private schools after going to public middle schools

[Mat Addict 20]

Good point again, but for the kids that have no way to get into a private school, the need to personalize with the team and coach early on, really will lead to a better sense of belonging with the incoming freshman.

[Mpire 76]

I know and you are right but that is also the reason many will be against it ,a stud jr high kid will steal all the thunder get more attention because a coach knows his work will pay off and he will look the better for it and this is one of the reasons many do not want the jr High kids in the HS tournys , a HS kid or parent does not want a jr high kid getting their spot. In ky the private school thing is not that bad as far as kids going to a private school to wrestle at least not in NKY LOL I do not think any private schools have wrestling and if they did Ryle CC and SK are hard acts to follow in the area not to forget what Walton is putting together. , seems Louisville has more of a private school wrestling following with X and Trinity . I like the jr high kids getting the shot but there are many sides some opposing and none really wrong , For now I would keep it in Ky

[Zeus 117]

A question...

If a middle school student was off the charts academically would you support him/her skipping a grade, or however many they are able to, in order to continue stimulating and challenging them? I personally would be in favor of it because I would not want to hold back a talent like that, one that has the potential to achieve things that normal people do not. Whatever answer you have to this question I think should be your answer to the wrestling question. If at 13 years old a kid is destroying wrestlers his age on the mat then why would you want to hold him back? Wouldn't you want to continue to challenge, stimulate and push him to be the best he can, whatever that might be? Very few have the ability to compete with those much older than him. Who knows, maybe Brock Ervin is going to be the first NCAA DI champ ever from KY. If he had not been able to compete in high school while still in middle school then most would agree that he would not be as good as he is today. As an educator and coach I am in favor of pushing all people to be the best they can be in whatever discipline they choose. If that means skipping grades or competing athletically beyond their years then so be it.

[eville dad 17]

Just to play the other side of this issue the difference between academics and sports is the MS student is not taking a spot from a HS Student in the classroom. Isn't there something for the talented MS wrestler to learn from mentoring his MS teammates? Wouldnt the MS teammates benefit from having such a talented wrester to practice with and learn? I understand people wanting to field the best team at all cost, but there are pros and cons to both sides of the issue.

[Mpire 76]

There again it would only hold the middle school kid back "unless he is with other talented middle schoolers " I'm sure the kid and his parents who have paid the price for success,main concern is their selve and their kid lets be honest half the kids on whatever team the kid is wrestling on would pound him for his spot ,it's a funny outlook for someone to have yes be a team player but it's wrestling and like every sport you may play the team game but it's eventually about personal goals .

[Mpire 76]

Kind of a sore spot , why on earth would a kid hold himself back and in doing so hold back his potential that would help his HS teammates even more when he got there .

Now that's a nice percpective , the real one and it may not be true everywhere but I have been to a lot of places and never once have I not seen or heard of a coach of some sort on every football team / wrestling team not playing politics or doing or saying something out of line , it's horrible in youth sports from day one our first head coach was great the dad coaches were horrible and most of them probably should have been smacked for their bs lol I know my rep and I rarely ever said anything to my kids while practicing on breaks and after a different story I was just a little ruthless , duiring practice had I said half the stuff some of the kids parents dif to their kids while mine were wrestling them the world would have erupted into gossip and by the next day everyone would have been saying I beat someone up with a tire iron ,I have stories on stories , better to push your kids take the bs push them through the system and train their ass off on your own and that is what separates the best kids from the rest anyway the extra work by HS it's not the talent it's the volume of work put in on home time , no middle school coach or youth coach cares anywhere as much as a parent and most of the other parents are ticked someone is doing something different with their kids , easy for lasy parents to leave it to the coaches but in my experience most coaches at least the head ones are won over by a kids work ethic .I have had some goo coaches say never change what you do and untill I couldn't stop it I never did , and it shows , you work you win you slack you lose always push yourself with the beat at your disposal then when you kid goes home after practice have him train for real ,if it's worthy of more then iti deserves more if its beyond middle schoolers why stay for a false sense of team and helping your teammates when it hurts you that's sad , that's why ky needs club teams that can up the level of jr high wrestling .

[hoehn.marcus 22]

Mpire, I can agree with a good portion of what you are saying. However, there is one small statement that I am having difficulty digesting: "no middle school coach or youth coach cares anywhere as much as a parent." Unfortunately, this may be the majority; but I personally know of a few coaches who care every bit as much as the child's parents about his success.

[Mat Addict 20]

That is true. Parents can get out of control with their dreams for their child and when the child loses, they can flip out.

[Mpire 76]

Well that may be true of some parents but trust me no coach wants to see my kids win as much as me , that's laughable ,yeah parents can flip out so can kids so can coaches , a coach can set calmly and be somewhat dismayed at a loss a parent who has trained with their kid and spent the time over years with them easily has more interest than a coach in seeing their kid win and may be dismayed

On different levels for different reasons , youth parents are a bit insane those that withstand the test of time generally chill out you win and lose life goes on , My kids have and will only ever have one coach who knows them what they can do and how they will respond under what circumstances As well as me because he spent five years with them no other coach will scratch the surface and no way any coach wants my kid to win as much as me he's not paying for their college and he doesn't tuck them in bed at night and say prayers with them .......

[raidercoach 51]

The current rules in Kentucky allow for the option for a middle school kid to wrestle up if he, the parents, and the coaches involved agree it is in the best interest for the kid. The point is, they currently have the choice to factor in all the pros/cons to do what's best for the kid's development. Changing the rule to prevent middle school kids from competing in high school takes that choice away. That's what I disagree with. Lets have rules that give the people closest to the situation the choice to do what's best for the kid.

[eville dad 17]

I agree with Raider the rules allow it, so manage within the rule. My only concern is that its not all about the one kid, its about the kid(s). The kids include the one thats being considered to move up and the one or more that are going to be affected the most by allowing the kid to move up. In some cases there is a high school wrestler that isnt going to be able to wrestle because of the decision and that bothers me.

[Mathound 4]

If the argument for allowing 7th and 8th to wrestle in high school is to not hold anyone back, then why arent we letting 6th, 5th, 4th. Why is the line drawn at 7th.

I believe the line should be at 8th, but with the same practice rules as today. I think the growth potential is mainly in the practice room, not in the match.

[Mpire 76]

Well im sure there have been sixth graders who could actually place in the lighter weights at state ,?? But are the grade schoolers in KY allowed to wrestle jr high ?? Pretty much the same isnt it .holding back the 7th graders or even the 6th kind of takes away from the point of it all ruins the shock factor the thing that makes it special .

[naplesme 58]

So Mathound you're saying that if given the opportunity in 1997 & 1998 you wouldn't have taken the opportunity to wrestle varsity? No one was complaining when Joe Carr, Livingston Merritt, Damien Leavell & etc were wrestling High School while in middle school. Then in the 2000's when Harrison Courtney, Josh Johnson, & others were competing there were very little complaints. I agree with tekejew: why take away from those who can compete? Wrestling is unique in that each of the competitors weighs the same. I love that middle school competitions have gotten better, but wrestling, especially in the Western part of the state didn't start to get better & it's numbers increased when middle school wrestlers were allowed to compete on the high school level again. I say we leave it as is. Those programs that need middle school wrestlers to compete will use them and those who don't won't. If it's not broken why fix it?

[raidercoach 51]

If the argument for allowing 7th and 8th to wrestle in high school is to not hold anyone back, then why arent we letting 6th, 5th, 4th. Why is the line drawn at 7th.

I believe the line should be at 8th, but with the same practice rules as today. I think the growth potential is mainly in the practice room, not in the match.

I agree grade shouldn't matter. I'd love to see a 6th grader win state. Keep the rules as they are unless you have evidence that it is harmful to the kids and/or it hurts the sport.

[Mpire 76]

It would be fine to see a sixth grader with exceptional talent place at state top eight and I know I have seen some that could , but to actually have a sixth grader win a state title would mean there were some pretty weak HS wrestlers in the state and while Hall came close and was a seventh grader and I think was held back again he almost did , but he is an exception one of the best of the best syne keeping it to seventh and eighth isn't a bad thing after all isn't sixth considered grade school still.

[Mat Addict 20]

Well I mean, Even if the middle schooler takes the high school kids place in wrestling, that is not the fault of the middle school kid. If you are taking a spot from a high school kid, there is obviously a reason. (and the reason is probably because the middle school kid is better than the high schooler) So, if that middle school kid can prove to be better than the high schooler at wrestling, let him pass and let the high schooler take one for the team.

[hrvstrofsrrw 0]

I coach high school wrestling and middle school baseball. I've also coached wrestling at the middle school level. I've seen this issue from almost all possible angles, minus that of a parent, in multiple sports.

This is a very broad issue, with broad implications. First off, I personally feel that the spirit of the KHSAA is to provide extracurricular athletic opportunities for high school children. I don't think a middle schooler should be allowed to move up and compete in any sport if he/she is going to be taking away an opportunity from a high schooler. I don't care how good he/she is. Especially since nowadays, most middle schools have those same types of opportunities available for their students, at that level.

Believe me, I love winning, whether it is for myself or the players that I coach. And there is a part of me that has a hard time saying that fielding the best team possible, or facing the best competition, or winning - period, is not what the goal should be. But those really aren't the goals. Getting kids involved and teaching them the lessons that come along with being part of a team sport, are the ultimate goals. The younger kids will have their time.

Every year, the high school baseball coach in my county asks around 7-8 of my middle school baseball players to bump up and play freshman/JV. In my 6 years of coaching this baseball team, I've had 1 kid out of around 50 who obliged his invitation, and he (the kid) doesn't even play baseball anymore. All the other kids have wanted to stay at the middle school level, playing with their group of buddies, playing every inning of all 30-35 games that we play in a season, with a shot at winning a conference championship. Converesely, they could have gone to the high school team, been with kids they aren't really that close to, playing here and there on the freshman/JV, "taking their lumps," and getting to watch the older varsity kids potentially revel in all the glory of a district or regional title.

It's a game. It should be fun. Let kids enjoy their time, their friends, and being a kid in general. There's plenty of time for hyper-competition, over-stress, and the dog-eat-dog culture of the "real world" after they turn 18 and graduate high school. High school sports should give opportunities to all high school kids. The same goes for middle school sports and middle school kids.

In the end, there has to be a blanket rule. And if potential exists under a particular system to take away opportunities from the very population for which it claims to work and support, then the system should be changed.

[Mpire 76]

Well you may have good intentions but your way Of thinking will keep wrestlers from Ky behind those from the rest of the country , with limited numbers in jr high and not that many if any club teams that are competitive on a National level the options should remain open to kids who want to up their game the rules stopping jr high kida from competing in other states are generally overcame one way or another , The better teams in most states ". Usually private schools " have club teams that do not follow the same rules as public schools thus getting better comp , in Ky this can be done with letting the youth kida compete up ,

Looking at this years crop of wrestlers in ky it seems things are on the rise why anyone would move to change something that I working is beyond me or many people . As for the High school kids who would lose a spot to a jr high stud well that's how life is if your a jr or sr and cannot beat a fresh you lose your spot why should it be any different against an 8th or 7th grader win your spot move to another or get better , that's how all sports are except in wrestling the other dirty tactics are taken out replaced with a kids performance ,