2012 State Tournament (set weight classes)

[Ranger123 43]

They only use it for pee wee and bantan, so up to about 8 years old. The rest uses USA weight classes. It would be interesting to hear why they choose to mix it up. Seems a bit odd.

[raidercoach 51]

They only use it for pee wee and bantan, so up to about 8 years old. The rest uses USA weight classes. It would be interesting to hear why they choose to mix it up. Seems a bit odd.

I emailed their tournament director to find out why. Hopefully, I'll get a response.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

As an outsider looking in, not to step on anyone's toes or overstep my bounds, one thing I see and it is just my opinion. You need 1 governing body for school wrestling and one for non-school related. KSWA (Kentucky state wrestling association) They oversee the weekend tournaments, weigh in's and co-ordinate the state events. I have to say, Kentucky wrestling has grown at an impressive rate over the last 10 years, my hats are off to you! Indiana's model is not perfect by any means, but the orginization and structure keep things flowing smoothly! http://www.iswa.com/

Coach Danny Struck at Jeff high is either president or VP and would be more than helpful to help anyone needing some questions answered. We attended the USA Kentucky State at Central in Louisville this year, not the best showing for Kentucky! Hard to find literature, event was moved, facility was not great. Just my 2 cents, I try and support Kentucky wrestling as much as possible, better competition makes for better wrestlers and God knows our region can use all the help it can get. Keep up the good work.

As far as the tourney at Central, that was an off-season tourney. Unfortunately not as many kids wrestling in the off season and not really representative of what you would see during a regular season tourney. I been to a few off season tourneys in Indiana also and can't really say there turnout was much better.

[hoosierdad 1]

I absolutely agree that some of the local off-season tourneys in Indiana have a horrible turnout, I am by no means bashing Kentucky and praising Indiana. There is room for much improvement in both. What I was saying is communication, website content, organization and some form of governance would improve Kentucky wrestling immensely. "The KY USA Wrestling State Folkstyle Tournament on March 31st has been moved from Male to Louisville Central." If Indiana had a tourney called Indiana "State" there would be 1000 kids there, the best from all over the state. We assumed that this was a state championship event. Apparently we were confused. Like I said, I am not bashing Kentucky wrestling, I want to be a part of my son wrestling in some tough tournaments in Kentucky, just want things to be a positive experience for everyone involved. In Indiana you have a few months of individual sanctioned tournaments and at the end of the folkstyle season you have the state championship. Seems fairly cut and dried to me. Now they do throw in the MS state event which confused me a bit, but the rest of how it is laid out, where you find the schedules, all the rules, weights and everything else is very straightforward and user friendly.

[Ranger123 43]

It is relatively straightforward, if you are a KY person who has been involved. I can see where you were confused on the USA state. The KSWA and KYSWA govern the "normal season" which includes regional and state events. There are typically a few "off season" events sanctioned through USA wrestling from March through May. While the event at Central was called a state championship, it is not considered by most around the state as a true championship event. It is completely outside our season.

[hoosierdad 1]

But until it is fairly straightforward to anyone who wants to come wrestle a tourney in Kentucky it's not straightforward at all. So during season you don't have tournaments? Indiana has sanctioned events that run with their season starting maybe 3 or 4 weeks after regular "school" season begins. ISWA state finals are about 3 or 4 weeks after end of regular "school" season. You go to their website, click on tournaments and you find 3 or 4 tournaments every weekend all around the state with the State tournament held in Indianapolis at the conclusion of Folkstyle, you then have 6-8 weeks of Freestyle/Greco and the then State finals for them and may have a triple crown winner if they win all 3 styles.I see 18 tournaments listed as non-sanctioned on KYSWA and not real sure if there is anything or what is going on in the sanctioned folder. Now I'm not the sharpest tack in the bunch, but I am fairly competent, doesn't seem very user friendly to me. And "KSWA and KYSWA govern the "normal season" which includes regional and state events" which one is it, which website and is there a KSWA site? Is it jointly controlled? Just seems very confusing and not set up for a USA style wrestling season outside of the regular school season.

Now all that being said, High school cannot compete in an ISWA tournament until their season is over. I am completely referring to youth wrestling k-8.

[Ranger123 43]

We can chat in Mason in a couple weeks. I don't think we are that different, especially at the middle school level. The problem at the youth level (we consider this elementary) is that there are not that many in state events. In NKY we compete in OH most weekends.

[hoosierdad 1]

Hey, I think the competition level in Kentucky is right there with us in Indiana now, and that couldn't always be said. The year round programs and the HS programs have grown by leaps and bounds, no animosity intended in the least, I have alot of respect for you and anyone else dedicating their time to all our kids. Wish I could get more matches between Indiana and Kentucky. We do have the battle of the bridge for the HS all-stars which is nice, but not much for the middle school guys, our middle schoolers aren't allowed to compete in HS events either, that is a huge advantage for your MS kids. I look forward to talking and meeting you in Mason.

[sbfraz 8]

I have to agree with Hoosierdad on things not being simple when it comes to finding youth tournaments in KY. This is my son's first year wrestling, and he has mostly competed independently (without a team). Therefore, we have had to find tournaments on our own. We are in central KY, so most events in KY are within an acceptable distance. But many weekends we drove to TN, IN or OH just because their websites were easier to navigate. All the events are listed in order of date, and most have fliers attached with all the contact info needed. We haven't been able to find anything like that for KY youth wrestling. We just see events posted on this forum a week or two before they are held, nothing where all the state youth events are listed together. We would much prefer to wrestle every weekend in KY, but finding events can take a lot of time, much more than in our surrounding states.

[MLee 68]

I have to agree with Hoosierdad on things not being simple when it comes to finding youth tournaments in KY. This is my son's first year wrestling, and he has mostly competed independently (without a team). Therefore, we have had to find tournaments on our own. We are in central KY, so most events in KY are within an acceptable distance. But many weekends we drove to TN, IN or OH just because their websites were easier to navigate. All the events are listed in order of date, and most have fliers attached with all the contact info needed. We haven't been able to find anything like that for KY youth wrestling. We just see events posted on this forum a week or two before they are held, nothing where all the state youth events are listed together. We would much prefer to wrestle every weekend in KY, but finding events can take a lot of time, much more than in our surrounding states.

I couldn't agree more. KY Youth Wrestling is experiencing many "growing pains" we're dealing with. Getting more organized and improving our communication in particular. I suggest creating a thread w/ more suggestions and comments regarding this important topic. This topic is in reference to set weight classes vs 10% rule differences.

[stalling 7]

I couldn't agree more. KY Youth Wrestling is experiencing many "growing pains" we're dealing with. Getting more organized and improving our communication in particular. I suggest creating a thread w/ more suggestions and comments regarding this important topic. This topic is in reference to set weight classes vs 10% rule differences.

Mlee, I only brought up using Ohio as an example because a couple people on this thread used Cincinatti Youth organization as an example of how well the 10 percent rule worked. Yet you keep saying you can't compare Ohio and Ky because there were more kids in Cincy than the whole of Ky. That's ridiculous. Especially when you have the whole of western Ky doing their own thing with their own season and their own State tourney. I've seen arguements on here about which one was the REAL State Championship. Get them in line, and your numbers will easily sustain a district/set weight method. With set weight classes, you have kids wrestling where they are supposed to. And with district eliminations you have kids that are at State because they earned it, not because they floated in on some shuffling around in the brackets. Not only will having set weights established make it cut and dry for wreslers and coaches, but it will ease the amount of work the organisers are doing with the brackets (something I hear a lot of complaing about). No more alleged favoritism by host teams. You make weight, you're put in a bracket and lace em up. Or you don't make weight and you go home. SIMPLIFY.

[MLee 68]

Mlee, I only brought up using Ohio as an example because a couple people on this thread used Cincinatti Youth organization as an example of how well the 10 percent rule worked. Yet you keep saying you can't compare Ohio and Ky because there were more kids in Cincy than the whole of Ky. That's ridiculous. Especially when you have the whole of western Ky doing their own thing with their own season and their own State tourney. I've seen arguements on here about which one was the REAL State Championship. Get them in line, and your numbers will easily sustain a district/set weight method. With set weight classes, you have kids wrestling where they are supposed to. And with district eliminations you have kids that are at State because they earned it, not because they floated in on some shuffling around in the brackets. Not only will having set weights established make it cut and dry for wreslers and coaches, but it will ease the amount of work the organisers are doing with the brackets (something I hear a lot of complaing about). No more alleged favoritism by host teams. You make weight, you're put in a bracket and lace em up. Or you don't make weight and you go home. SIMPLIFY.

Not sure why you're getting so defensive. I agreed w/ you. I simply would like this topic stay on track and be constructive. For some reason, everyone gets so heated and angry, it becomes counter-productive. I was asked to compare our format to others, so I did. I started w/ Ohio's TOC and USA Wrestling.

Now, regarding the rest of your comment. Not sure where to begin? First, I don't believe it is the association's job to "get them in line." The fact is: WKY has gone rogue and decided to do their own thing. They have their reasons. I might not agree with it, but at least they're wrestling.

And if you've followed the bouncing ball, you should have seen the MAJOR problems w/ set weight classes in our youth state. The evidence is there. You can choose to ignore if you'd like, but until someone SHOWS the association a format that is better (not just "lace them up" attitude), the 10% rule shouldn't go anywhere.

As far as the "don't make weight and go home" comment. I'm at a complete loss for words. You do realize we have 6 year olds attending our tournament? What a great way to promote our sport..."Sorry Mr. Johnson, your 6 year old was overweight. He can either put these plastics on and cut that half a pound or go home." We might as well be handing out basketball sign ups while we're at it!

[raidercoach 51]

Mlee, I only brought up using Ohio as an example because a couple people on this thread used Cincinatti Youth organization as an example of how well the 10 percent rule worked. Yet you keep saying you can't compare Ohio and Ky because there were more kids in Cincy than the whole of Ky. That's ridiculous. Especially when you have the whole of western Ky doing their own thing with their own season and their own State tourney. I've seen arguements on here about which one was the REAL State Championship. Get them in line, and your numbers will easily sustain a district/set weight method. With set weight classes, you have kids wrestling where they are supposed to. And with district eliminations you have kids that are at State because they earned it, not because they floated in on some shuffling around in the brackets. Not only will having set weights established make it cut and dry for wreslers and coaches, but it will ease the amount of work the organisers are doing with the brackets (something I hear a lot of complaing about). No more alleged favoritism by host teams. You make weight, you're put in a bracket and lace em up. Or you don't make weight and you go home. SIMPLIFY.

Stalling,

Comparing Ohio and Kentucky youth wrestling at this point is ridiculous. They have more kids wrestling youth in just Southwest Ohio than our entire state. Keep in mind that isn't including Northwest, which is their hotbed, or Central Ohio which is as big as Louisville and Lexington combined. They have an established system of many large teams all across the state. I'm just speculating, but they probably have more youth wreslters than Kentucky has youth, middle and high combined. Here is a crazy Ohio wrestling stat: in 2002, 3 graduates from St. Ed's in Cleveland earned D-1 All-American status at the same weight class! Kentucky has had 3 D-1 All-Americans in our entire history. Could you imagine having 3 kids from Trinity or Union County all-american at the same weight? Think about that for a second.

There are some things that make sense to take from and compare to Ohio and some that things that don't. Ohio's numbers clearly support having qualifying tournaments whereas ours clearly do not. Last year, Cincinnati's City-Wide tournament had over 200 more participants than our state tournament and they don't have a qualifying tournament and they use 10% rule.

Having set weight classes makes running a youth tournament more difficult, not easier. The 10% rule was desinged to simplify as you suggest. With 10% rule, tournament directors have way more flexibility to evenly spread the distribution of particpants. With set weight classes, we'll have such a log jam at certain weights that you will have to split those weights into mulitple brackets anyway. So to claim having set weight classes proves something more or less than brackets set up by 10% rule is a farse. If so many people claim there is favoritism with the brackets, there is a much simpler solution: just have a committee comprised of coaches from all over setting the brackets so you don't leave it to one team.

I was in the room for a while as Coach Lee put the brackets together last year. I assure you, there was no favoritsm going on. There was barely enough time to get them done. Coach Lee was up to almost 4:00am fixing someone else's mistake and what thanks does he get? A bunch of paranoid people claiming he deliberatly "left off 40 kids from a rival club" and people with no evidence suggesting he was fixing brackets...its pathetic. Turns out he had nothing to do with the kids being left off the brackets and that coach from NKY who made that claim has yet to come on here and apologize for his accusation. Coaching, running tournaments and helping run the state tournament is a thankless job and people like Coach Lee and Ranger (yes, even I respect all that you do Poobah) should be commended.

Many of us think getting WKY on board with the rest of the state is a top priority. There is way too much talent and tradition in that part of the state to ignore. I think some coaches down there want to change the dates of the season to much later which would be a big step back from our perspective. I don't think anyone up here has an answer to that problem, but I'm sure we'd love to figure it out.

[stalling 7]

Let me say first, MLee, I didn't mean to come off defensive. If you perceived it that way, I apologize. I was merely pointing out that a few people were using Ohio youth as an example. So, using that as your example, you do realize that they hold district meets for youth. If Ky simply doesn't have the numbers to hold districts, maybe people shouldn't use that example as a model. If numbers are so low, why does there seem like there are a ton of issues that coaches want to resolve? Growth is one thing, but apparently somethings are in need of rearranging. With such low numbers (Cincy has more wrestlers than the entire state of Ky), then why all the desire to ease the chore and make it easier? Btw, I never said there was favoritism by host clubs... a couple others on here did. I just pointed out that set weights would eliminate that. And yes, Make weight or go home. If a 6yo weighs in at 50 lbs at the beginning of the season, then allow for a 3 or 5 lb growth allowance at State. Keeps people honest. If you come in wheighing 60 plus, sorry, but somethings not right. My own son just turned 15 2 weeks ago. 6ft, 220. He never gained more than 20lbs a year, so a kid gaining only 3 to 5lbs in 2 to 3 months is reasonable. Set weights, no shifting on brackets equals less work for people running the event. Ohio also has odd brackets with a lot of kids and some end up with just a handful. Its just the nature of the beast. I don't claim to have all the answers, but an open discussion without attitude is required to grow Ky wrestling. Btw, I understand western Ky went rogue. That's not the rest of Kys fault. But, as one poster said, elect ONE governing body to run youth wrestling. Either get on board, or be left out.

[Ranger123 43]

Just my 2 cents (for what it is worth ) on the bracket issues. The feedback I heard from those organizing the event (who I trust) and the discussions I was involved in on that Saturday night indicate to me that there was no monkey business by Coach Lee with the brackets. He was asked to help resolve the issues and presented the very best option to deal with the problems in a short time frame. So hopefully we can move past that issue. We do get very competitive and emotional at times (especially up here in N KY) and want to find a reason to dislike people and/or programs. But this one doesn't work. No wrongdoing here.

[stalling 7]

Just my 2 cents (for what it is worth ) on the bracket issues. The feedback I heard from those organizing the event (who I trust) and the discussions I was involved in on that Saturday night indicate to me that there was no monkey business by Coach Lee with the brackets. He was asked to help resolve the issues and presented the very best option to deal with the problems in a short time frame. So hopefully we can move past that issue. We do get very competitive and emotional at times (especially up here in N KY) and want to find a reason to dislike people and/or programs. But this one doesn't work. No wrongdoing here.

I absolutely agree with you. I personally doubt any wrong doing was done with any brackets. I was just saying with set weights it would remove that arguement from people that would and have implied such. Keep working, people like you are what makes this sport better and better. It takes a few good discussions sometimes to hammer things out, and that's ok.

[raidercoach 51]

I absolutely agree with you. I personally doubt any wrong doing was done with any brackets. I was just saying with set weights it would remove that arguement from people that would and have implied such. Keep working, people like you are what makes this sport better and better. It takes a few good discussions sometimes to hammer things out, and that's ok.

Amen!

[hoosierdad 1]

I feel for all of you and can truly relate, You seem to assume that since I am from Indiana that I have not nor do I understand the issues with Kentucky wrestling. I am in New Albany, may as well be Louisville, and have seen good tourneys in the state and very bad tourneys in the state. Southern Indiana with the exception of the Evansville area, has horrible turnouts for most tournaments, we do try and find a few Louisville area events to attend to keep our kids on the mat but usually only find 2 or 3 a year that are well orginized and easy to get into!. You want to fix the issues? Use the resources you have available, Indiana is not your enemy nor do we hold any animosity at all. On the contrary, I think you would find we want Kentucky wrestling to prosper almost as much as you do. As I said before, you need one governing body! Period! For Pee-wee - Junior! not just youth. Please, someone, whoever has taken the bull by the horns to get the ball rolling, talk to Coach Struck from Jeffersonville High school! He is a wealth of information and goes so far above and beyond to help the sport. I'm not sure but maybe the difference in the middle school issues between Southern Indiana and Kentucky is, we have about 12 - 14 meets, local schools which their usually is a handful of kids that are good the rest not so much, so the ISWA meets are very important as they are our competition, the time when our kids improve the most. We usually try and do about 15 - 20 The 10% rule in my opinion isn't the answer, give a 2 pound allowance, 15 lbs. on a 150 pound kid makes a big difference in a match, especially at the middle school level. Most of our tourneys are in the Indianapolis area so almost every weekend we're driving 2 hours 1 way. You want to compete with Northern Indiana and Ohio? Have year round wrestling clubs, bring in guest clinicians, better matches make for better wrestlers, travel to where the competition is! ISWA doesn't sit and do brackets for local tournaments, the school and people who put it on do, some use trackwrestling, some don't but from what I hear, it really helps things. The state tourney should have districts but as is it's a free for all and most weight classes have between 25 and 75 kids +\- On site weigh ins or satellite sites are the only way to go, honor system doesn't work, and only causes people to scream of cheating. Start with getting with Western Kentucky and get the ball rolling, don't hesitate to ask for help, you might be surprised at who is waiting in the wings!

[Ranger123 43]

This is probably easier to discuss and answer questions in person rather than typing, so we will talk in Mason on July 14. But we are doing great at the middle school level. Plenty of in-season meets, growth, ever-improving competition. We are growing at the youth level and the state tournament is a great event. Much of this discussion is simply about making it better and taking the next step in our evolution.

[MLee 68]

bump

[JDamron 4]

I like the current system. Never going to stop kids from cutting weight not sure what the problem is with the system we are currently using. I didn't see any kids at state who wrestled out of weight (wasn't really looking). I think most of our coaches are honest (may be naive). I like how the weights were checked before awards were given. If there were a lot of kids wrestling much higher than they were reported THEN we have a problem. But, IMO, weigh ins are a huge headache at a event this big. Can't see how we could have weigh ins the night before with high school wrestling going on. No need to try and fix a problem we don't have ie......Kids wrestling under false weights.

[raidercoach 51]

I like the current system. Never going to stop kids from cutting weight not sure what the problem is with the system we are currently using. I didn't see any kids at state who wrestled out of weight (wasn't really looking). I think most of our coaches are honest (may be naive). I like how the weights were checked before awards were given. If there were a lot of kids wrestling much higher than they were reported THEN we have a problem. But, IMO, weigh ins are a huge headache at a event this big. Can't see how we could have weigh ins the night before with high school wrestling going on. No need to try and fix a problem we don't have ie......Kids wrestling under false weights.

I agree. I don't understand why so many people want to tinker with things when the current state of Kentucky wrestling has never been better. I don't have hard numbers, but I'd guarantee that our state has never had more kids wrestling at all levels than it does now. We haven't had nearly as many kids wrestling in college as we do now. Our best kids and teams are far better now than they ever were when comparing them to the rest of the country. I've never seen Kentucky have so many kids ranked in national rankings as we have now. Teams like CC and UC won team titles in out of state tournaments that no team from Kentucky ever won in the past. Our youth numbers continue to grow in both number of participants and number of teams. We now have solid college wrestling in the state.

You can go on and on about how great it is. I talked with two coaching legends, Joe Carr and Mike Bankamper, at youth state this year about this exact topic. Both were praising how great youth wrestling has gotten in KY in such a short time. Why change something that isn't broken?