2012 State Tournament (set weight classes)

[Ranger123 43]

Heck, sometimes I cant trust myself, lol. I know we cant trust ALL parents, coaches, or athletes, but the same ones who are'nt willing to help regulate the cutting of weight are probably the same ones still doing it even with the 10% rule in place. Maybe we should weigh them all in at the beginning of the season and let them know that will have some sort of bearing on where they will be allowed to wrestle at the end of the season.

Excellent point Mike. With the current process we "trust" way too many coaches. Most of us have a pretty good hunch that some areas are either not really holding regions or the weigh ins are extremely suspect. And those coaches/parents that we don't trust are likely going to make that bad decision even under "the new President".

[MLee 68]

Heck, sometimes I cant trust myself, lol. I know we cant trust ALL parents, coaches, or athletes, but the same ones who are'nt willing to help regulate the cutting of weight are probably the same ones still doing it even with the 10% rule in place. Maybe we should weigh them all in at the beginning of the season and let them know that will have some sort of bearing on where they will be allowed to wrestle at the end of the season.

Well, obviously there is no perfect solution/format. We seem to dance back and forth between weight cutting and bracket issues w/ this topic.

I concede (you win), 10% rule will not ELIMINATE all weight cutting. In addition to consulting w/ CYW officials and having over 20 years involvement in the sport, I have 2 years of State weigh ins, Raider Rumble weights (10%) vs MS Tournaments, IN State Tournament, TOC Tournament, Border Wars weights (set weights classes). One thing cannot be disputed: the kids that wrestle in both, tend to weigh more at 10% rule tournaments! Draw whatever conclusion you'd like, I'm done trying to convince everyone.

Back to the bracket issues. What is everyone's take on that? Is there a 4th format out there we can look at to compare?

[Ranger123 43]

Matt. Try the KY Youth weights that you created today. It will be perfect.

[raidercoach 51]

I don't think anyone is claiming the 10% rule is the silver bullet for all of our problems, but it has proven to do a better job of distributing the participants evenly, reduce weight cutting, an helps make tournaments run smoother than fixed weight classes. All of which have been problems in the past with youth wrestling in our state.

JW, Plantman, Ranger- you guys seem to be for changing to weight classes, what do you think we will benefit from this change?

[MLee 68]

Matt. Try the KY Youth weights that you created today. It will be perfect.

Ha, picking up on your sarcasm.

[MLee 68]

Excellent point Mike. With the current process we "trust" way too many coaches. Most of us have a pretty good hunch that some areas are either not really holding regions or the weigh ins are extremely suspect. And those coaches/parents that we don't trust are likely going to make that bad decision even under "the new President".

I'd like to see this issue resolved, too. I got an anonymous call last year that a Region submitted weights w/out a weigh in. Major problem.

[Ranger123 43]

Ha, picking up on your sarcasm.

No sarcasm. Show us your creativity.

[raidercoach 51]

Ranger, why does he have to show creativity, he believes what we are doing now works? If you guys want to change to weight classes, then you guys should create something that you can prove works better than what we already have.

[Ranger123 43]

Because he has the data; not us. Plus, apparently I don't have the credentials.

[raidercoach 51]

Awww...did poor little Ranger get his feelings hurt? If you don't have the data or the credentials to make the change, then I guess we can just assume no changes will be made. Good, I'm glad it has been settled.

[Bearcats Coach 94]

Before any bashing starts. I believe that Ranger was only try to help. Although I do not get on these boards that often, I find them somewhat humorist. I also think that we ALL at times can take others messages out of the content. It happens. However I have had the opportunity to be a coach for the Raider Youth Program years back. Now Im at the MS level coaching. I personally think we have outstanding People that are always trying to improve wrestling in KY at all levels. Stan Martin did a great job with the youth league and Raider program. I think Mall Lee has taken that program a step further and has done great job. He has surround himself with great people that care about all these kids. Darren Thomas comes to mind. Now on the MS level Ranger has done a great job with the MS Assoication and I have had hours of discussions with him on how to make this sport better throughout the state. My point to all this is that we ALL need to set EGOs aside, HS records college creditals and work together. I mean really work together. This isn't about me, you or anyone's program. It's about these kids and help grow the sport of wrestling. Now me replying to this thread isn't me bashing on anyone but to hopefully trying to keep everyone focused on what's most important..... These Kids!!!!!!

[Bearcats Coach 94]

Yes I know I have some grammar issues!!! LOL!

I'm on my phone!!! Haha

[MLee 68]

Before any bashing starts. I believe that Ranger was only try to help. Although I do not get on these boards that often, I find them somewhat humorist. I also think that we ALL at times can take others messages out of the content. It happens. However I have had the opportunity to be a coach for the Raider Youth Program years back. Now Im at the MS level coaching. I personally think we have outstanding People that are always trying to improve wrestling in KY at all levels. Stan Martin did a great job with the youth league and Raider program. I think Mall Lee has taken that program a step further and has done great job. He has surround himself with great people that care about all these kids. Darren Thomas comes to mind. Now on the MS level Ranger has done a great job with the MS Assoication and I have had hours of discussions with him on how to make this sport better throughout the state. My point to all this is that we ALL need to set EGOs aside, HS records college creditals and work together. I mean really work together. This isn't about me, you or anyone's program. It's about these kids and help grow the sport of wrestling. Now me replying to this thread isn't me bashing on anyone but to hopefully trying to keep everyone focused on what's most important..... These Kids!!!!!!

I concur, Ranger is the man! I don't and never will deny how valuable he is to Kentucky Wrestling. I respect him, his opinions and ideas.

I am working on a 16 man bracket version of the 10% rule. I'll post it as soon as I get it done. Right now I'm too busy shopping at Mall Lee.

[Ranger123 43]

I concur, Ranger is the man! I don't and never will deny how valuable he is to Kentucky Wrestling. I respect him, his opinions and ideas.

I am working on a 16 man bracket version of the 10% rule. I'll post it as soon as I get it done. Right now I'm too busy shopping at Mall Lee.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Matt. Hey, they have a pretzel shop at Mall Lee?

[MLee 68]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Matt. Hey, they have a pretzel shop at Mall Lee?

Yes they do. I'm about to grab a Cinnabon and get the heck out of here.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

Mall Lee,KY pronounciation=MOLLY

[MLee 68]

No sarcasm. Show us your creativity.

Not sure how creative it was, but I ran the tournament using 16 man brackets w/ the 10% rule. Here are the results:

65 total brackets (exact same as TOC, which I found odd).

48 full 16 man brackets (one 17 man)

17 less than 16

Major problem bracket sizes (6,4,5,5,5,3,2,3)

At first glance, some of the positives:

• More competitive. I don't know a lot of the top youth kids outside on NKY, but I saw some really tough brackets. Would be fun to watch.
  
• Less brackets, less cost. We spend quite a bit on the medals, this would naturally save $$.
  
• Evenly distributed size weight classes. Other than the 8 oddball fringe classes, 48 out of 65 is pretty good. Having the same size classes helps the tournament run smoother.
  
• Less concern w/ moving kids out of bracket. If we agreed on only 2 kids from same club per 8 man, is it save to assume 4 per 16? If so, this somehow worked out better. I didn't look at every team, but I did look at our club. We didn't have one bracket where we had more than 4.
  

Negatives:

• With larger brackets comes larger spread rate. With 8 man, it is pretty easy to keep the majority of the weight classes under 5% spread. 16 man opens the door to more 8-9% brackets. Most looked good, but there were some close.
  
• Less brackets, less medals for kids. I think it is a good thing to have more kids leaving w/ medals. (I realize I have this as both a positive and negative for all you wise guys out there!)
  

[J.W. 21]

MLee,

Still would like to have that spreadsheet to do an autopsy / disection myself - please share.

JW

[MLee 68]

MLee,

Still would like to have that spreadsheet to do an autopsy / disection myself - please share.

JW

I've tried attaching the spreadsheet 3 times and it doesn't seem to work. PM me your email and I'll send it that way.

[stalling 7]

Not sure how creative it was, but I ran the tournament using 16 man brackets w/ the 10% rule. Here are the results:

65 total brackets (exact same as TOC, which I found odd).

48 full 16 man brackets (one 17 man)

17 less than 16

Major problem bracket sizes (6,4,5,5,5,3,2,3)

At first glance, some of the positives:

• More competitive. I don't know a lot of the top youth kids outside on NKY, but I saw some really tough brackets. Would be fun to watch.
  
• Less brackets, less cost. We spend quite a bit on the medals, this would naturally save $$.
  
• Evenly distributed size weight classes. Other than the 8 oddball fringe classes, 48 out of 65 is pretty good. Having the same size classes helps the tournament run smoother.
  
• Less concern w/ moving kids out of bracket. If we agreed on only 2 kids from same club per 8 man, is it save to assume 4 per 16? If so, this somehow worked out better. I didn't look at every team, but I did look at our club. We didn't have one bracket where we had more than 4.
  

Negatives:

• With larger brackets comes larger spread rate. With 8 man, it is pretty easy to keep the majority of the weight classes under 5% spread. 16 man opens the door to more 8-9% brackets. Most looked good, but there were some close.
  
• Less brackets, less medals for kids. I think it is a good thing to have more kids leaving w/ medals. (I realize I have this as both a positive and negative for all you wise guys out there!)
  

It looks like there are more positives than negatives in your breakdown. But I have to ask, why use the T.O.C. as a model? Because of the one day format? The OAC does a very good job with Ohio youth State. I think you're right on by mimicking another program that's had success, raher than trying to reinvent the wheel. And why limit the amount of wrestlers from the same club? Ohio has a handful of clubs that are the "ones to beat" and almost always have a couple boys facing off at State. But, they also have Districts for youth. That eliminates having to choose who goes and who doesn't. Top 4 placers in each weight go. Simple. One more question, does Western Ky have a different season than the rest of the State? Wouldn't that help complete some lower number brackets if they joined in the majority schedule?

[BadMadDad 16]

MLee: If one of your major concerns is that less kids would be leaving with medals, why not place out to 6 kids like KY MS? There is no shame in a kid winning 6^th in a 16 man bracket.

[MLee 68]

It looks like there are more positives than negatives in your breakdown. But I have to ask, why use the T.O.C. as a model? Because of the one day format? The OAC does a very good job with Ohio youth State. I think you're right on by mimicking another program that's had success, raher than trying to reinvent the wheel. And why limit the amount of wrestlers from the same club? Ohio has a handful of clubs that are the "ones to beat" and almost always have a couple boys facing off at State. But, they also have Districts for youth. That eliminates having to choose who goes and who doesn't. Top 4 placers in each weight go. Simple. One more question, does Western Ky have a different season than the rest of the State? Wouldn't that help complete some lower number brackets if they joined in the majority schedule?

Stalling,

I am ok w/ the current format, but am open to making changes/improvements. I was asked to look at other formats (TOC, USA Wrestling) weight classes to compare the differences. I'll take a look at OAC, but I believe they use USA weight classes if I'm not mistaken.

This has been discussed before, but we cannot compare ourselves to OH. It's like comparing apples and soccer balls in my opinion. They have more kids in Cincinnati than we do in our whole state; hence, their need for quailifiers. We're on track to need qualifying tournaments in the future, but I don't believe we're there yet. This is something the association should discuss at the next meeting: how many kids before we have qualifiers?

I don't mind having multiple kids from one club in the same bracket. However, who wants to see a bracket of 8 kids from the same club? Unlike OH, we have a handful of large clubs and the rest are much smaller in comparison. An effort has been made to separate the kids a bit for everyone (kids, coaches, parents).

I don't have any answers regarding WKY. It would be great to get more WKY kids to our state tournament. I was told they started their season after ours, but not sure.

[MLee 68]

MLee: If one of your major concerns is that less kids would be leaving with medals, why not place out to 6 kids like KY MS? There is no shame in a kid winning 6^th in a 16 man bracket.

Makes sense to me. I was told cost was one of the reasons coaches voted against team scores (trophies), so I just wanted to throw that out there. I'm all for more medals for kids vs less, regardless of cost.

[hoosierdad 1]

As an outsider looking in, not to step on anyone's toes or overstep my bounds, one thing I see and it is just my opinion. You need 1 governing body for school wrestling and one for non-school related. KSWA (Kentucky state wrestling association) They oversee the weekend tournaments, weigh in's and co-ordinate the state events. I have to say, Kentucky wrestling has grown at an impressive rate over the last 10 years, my hats are off to you! Indiana's model is not perfect by any means, but the orginization and structure keep things flowing smoothly! http://www.iswa.com/

Coach Danny Struck at Jeff high is either president or VP and would be more than helpful to help anyone needing some questions answered. We attended the USA Kentucky State at Central in Louisville this year, not the best showing for Kentucky! Hard to find literature, event was moved, facility was not great. Just my 2 cents, I try and support Kentucky wrestling as much as possible, better competition makes for better wrestlers and God knows our region can use all the help it can get. Keep up the good work.

[raidercoach 51]

I just found out that Minnesota uses 10% rule for their youth state tournament and it appears they use qualifiers as well. Here is a link to their tournament info:

http://assets.ngin.c...ormation_2_.pdf