Safety vs.Competitiveness

[Has Been 11]

Might be interesting discussion to see what everyone has to say?

With everyone's concern on kids safety, cutting weigh, competitiveness ect..

The lower weights are 5-6 pounds and goes up from there: 70, 75, 80, 86, 92, 98, 105, 113, 121, 130, 140, 152, 168, 190, 230

Every years most wrestlers dropping weigh classes are in the 75-105 range and probably the ones that don't need to be cutting weigh.

Safety vs.Competitiveness, the current system encourages kids to lose weigh to be competitve

So should we:

A: Eliminate growth allowance (expect for a second day weigh-ins)

B: Allow a one pound growth allowance after 1 Jan.

C: NO change

We use to be able to create a poll and I don't recall how, if someone knows please assist....

[J.W. 21]

Personal opinion is to get rid of weight allowance all together at Middle School. There is no need with weight classes as close as they are to have an allowance. If you are going to have an allowance it should only be 1 lb and that should only be after making scratch weight prior to Christmas....then it is an allowance for a kid that is growing instead of a change in the weight class.

The MS bylaws say each wrestler will get a 2 lb allowance, but that is not how they are doing it, they are growing the weight class by 2 lbs. Not the right way. Got it, some will say that is how high school is.... only in KY.

Here is how some of your bigger wrestling states interpret that same rule:

California (they send more kids to high school nationals than any other state)

The CA Weight Wrestling Weight Management Program awards a two-pound growth allowance on January 15 of each wrestling season.

(2) The growth allowance may not be utilized to achieve a lower certified minimum wrestling weight for a wrestler.

(3) In order to utilize the growth allowance a wrestler shall compete at “scratch weight” in the desired weight class at least once prior to the first qualifying tournament in the CA State Championship series.

Ohio (Bordering state, highly competitive wrestling)

GROWTH ALLOWANCE

1. The OHSAA Weight Monitoring Program includes growth allowance. A two pound growth allowance will be given on December 25.

2. Growth allowance may not be utilized to achieve a lower minimum weight for a wrestler.

3. In order to utilize the growth allowance, a wrestler shall compete at “scratch” (lowest allowable) weight in the desired weight class at least once prior to using the two pound growth allowance.

Iowa (Iowa Wrestling speaks for itself)

wrestling weight for wrestlers. must make scratch weight at least one time before using the growth allowance.

Illinois (bordering state, competitive wrestling)

D. After December 25th, a wrestler may only get growth allowance for the lowest weight class that he/she has made scratch weight at or one weight class above that scratch weight. This is true, even if the wrestler plans to go down one more weight class. Before a wrestler can get the growth allowance at that next lower weight, he/she must make scratch weight the first time down to that weight class after December 25th.

Pennsylvania (Premier Wrestling State)

G. The growth allowance may not be utilized to achieve a lower certified minimum wrestling weight for a wrestler.

West Virginia (bordering state, highly competitive): After December 25th, a wrestler may only get growth allowance for the lowest weight class that he/she has made scratch weight at or one weight class above that scratch weight.

Get rid of the weight allowance all together for Middle School or lets make them wrestle at the weight class before getting the allowance.

[Ranger123 43]

The problem is this. How does eliminating the growth allowance increase safety or limit weight cutting? Kids will cut weight at the end of the year no matter what. Short of implementing some sort of testing/monitoring process it will happen. Instead of the 85 pound kid cutting to 82 (which was 80), you would instead have the 83 pound kid cutting to 80. Just changing the kids that are doing it. I'm not a big proponent of adding an administrative nightmare for middle school coaches; they already struggle to complete the few items we ask of them now. This has to be handled more by the culture the coach sets about weight loss. Coaches enter kids in weight classes; not the kids, not the parents. Coaches can control weight loss as much as they want to.

[J.W. 21]

Ranger - Agreed, There will always be weight cutting in wrestling. But as it stands now it is not a growth allowance. A growth allowance is an allowance to allow a kid who weighed something at the beginning of the season (ie: scratch weight) to have the ability to grow naturally and still wrestle where he has competed all year. Natural growth of a child.

what we are doing is not a growth allowance, it is having one set of weight classes at the beginning of the season and a second set of weight classes at the end of the season.

Here is an example of where it is worse with the 2 lb allowance: Kid who weighs 89 at the beginning of the season drops to 86 to wrestle. He has sucked 3 lbs and keeps it off the whole season. But when you change the weight class 2 lbs he now sucks another 4 to go to 82. You gave him a reason to suck weight again. different weights, but this is a factual story that happened this year. Giving 2 lbs does encourage additional weight loss. If you did not have it they would have only sucked the weight once. Just something to think about.

[Ranger123 43]

Agree the wording of weight allowance is not exactly accurate, but I don't think it changes anything. With or without a weight allowance there will be ill-advised weight cutting. If the coach is properly managing this situation from the beginning it doesn't matter what we do with weights and allowances. He has ultimate control. Here is how I see it and how we handled similar situations this season. Kid at 89 would begin the season at 92. If he "naturally" drops a couple pounds then making 88 when the weight changes is an option (not a given). No discussion about dropping to 82; the kid needs to weigh 106 pounds in the next couple years to be a high school wrestler. Plus, I fill out the lineup for duals and enter the kids in the district brackets.

[BadMadDad 16]

I think that every wrestler should have to certify before Dec 25 at the weight class they choose to wrestle. Once a wrestler has certified at scratch weight, then 1-2lbs worth of allowance should be given for normal growth. If a MS wrestle grow/gains more weight throughout the season, he should be free to move up without restrictions, but not down. When you allow kids to “drop weight” prior to District/Regions/State, you are in fact promoting cutting weight. But if a kids has certified in December at his/her weight class, in most cases that wrestler is at that said weight they should be at. No problems/no controversy! Thus allowing kids to “wrestle up” for better competition.

[Ranger123 43]

But what prevents a kid from cutting an unhealthy amount of weight to "Certify"?

[J.W. 21]

I think all have agreed that wrestlers are going to cut weight, but if they certify at least when they say they are a 98 lb state champion it is because they actually made 98 lbs that year (or pick a weight class)....which is not the case for most of the state champions.

Why start the season with one set of weights and the last month have a separate set of weights?

Again, if they have to lose a couple of pounds at the beginning of the year to make a weight, why tempt them to do it again at the end of the year by giving them a 2 lb incentive. We all know that this happened on many cases this year. At least if it is one set of weight classes they are less likely to go for that second weight drop.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

Lets not forget the team aspect. Should a coach have to potentially give up a dual tournament so kid can make scratch?

[J.W. 21]

mataholic: Not following. If they don't make the actual weight class before 25 DEC, they should not be wrestling that weight class anyways...therefore from the coaching perspective of being for the kids, you only have an issue if you are telling them to suck weight. That is why it is called and written as a growth allowance. Not a let us grow the weight class by 2 pounds to have a stronger dual team and state finals allowance.

I will stick to the point that changing the weight class by 2 lbs only gives kids a reason to lose weight twice. They lose the 1-3 pounds at the beginning to get to the weight class that they want to wrestle. We will use 75 as the example. The kid comes in around 78 lbs. He loses 3 pounds to make 75 (first time he loses weight). The KY Middle school now says we will change the weight classes to 72 / 77 / 82....and so on. You have now given the kid the reason and incentive to lose weight a second time in the same season as he should be growing but now decides to lose another 3 lbs, because it is now 72 instead of 70... so what the heck he will be stronger there and the team will be stonger. There are 100 examples of this throughout the weight classes. That is why getting rid of the allowance all together makes the most sense. Having 2 sets of weight classes does not make sense.

High school has a 2 lb weight allowance but it is also regulated. Why do we have a 2 lb allowance but no mandatory regulation on kids that are at still growing more than a HS kid. Either regulate it through medical checks at the beginning like high school or get rid of the allowance all together.

But as long as there are people who benefit from having kids lose weight 2 x a year for the team aspect, I guess it is what we are stuck with.

[BadMadDad 16]

mataholic: Not following. If they don't make the actual weight class before 25 DEC, they should not be wrestling that weight class anyways...therefore from the coaching perspective of being for the kids, you only have an issue if you are telling them to suck weight. That is why it is called and written as a growth allowance. Not a let us grow the weight class by 2 pounds to have a stronger dual team and state finals allowance.

I will stick to the point that changing the weight class by 2 lbs only gives kids a reason to lose weight twice. They lose the 1-3 pounds at the beginning to get to the weight class that they want to wrestle. We will use 75 as the example. The kid comes in around 78 lbs. He loses 3 pounds to make 75 (first time he loses weight). The KY Middle school now says we will change the weight classes to 72 / 77 / 82....and so on. You have now given the kid the reason and incentive to lose weight a second time in the same season as he should be growing but now decides to lose another 3 lbs, because it is now 72 instead of 70... so what the heck he will be stronger there and the team will be stonger. There are 100 examples of this throughout the weight classes. That is why getting rid of the allowance all together makes the most sense. Having 2 sets of weight classes does not make sense.

High school has a 2 lb weight allowance but it is also regulated. Why do we have a 2 lb allowance but no mandatory regulation on kids that are at still growing more than a HS kid. Either regulate it through medical checks at the beginning like high school or get rid of the allowance all together.

But as long as there are people who benefit from having kids lose weight 2 x a year for the team aspect, I guess it is what we are stuck with.

It has already been established that kids in wrestling are going to cut weight. All we can do as coaches and parents is take a stand. I know that there are some bigger kids that have the extra weight to lose, but when I see it in the smaller weights it makes me wonder. I know that everyone on here pays lip service to that fact that cutting weight is not a condoned. However, it happens. We as parents/coaches need to be protecting these wrestlers, not just for now, but for the long term as well. If they are led to believe that cutting weight is going to give them a competitive advantage then the wrestler will continue to do so. I for one, will never tell a kid to cut weight because it will give them a better chance to win. Get to the practice room, train hard & give it everything they can. After all, we are talking about MS wrestling, not solving world peace. Our kids are looking at us and our actions. We need to be the role models for our kids to follow. If we as a collective group of parents/coaches don’t care about the welfare of our wrestlers, who will?

[Ranger123 43]

JW - dropping the growth allowance isn't that big a deal. what i don't like is introducing a certification process that requires all of the coaches to do a lot more work and keep up with paperwork and then something else for district hosts to have to deal with, and in the end not really impact the issue. if we can't come up with a process that we know will improve the safety for kids (like the program the hs uses) i am not for changing just for the sake of change.

[BadMadDad 16]

JW - dropping the growth allowance isn't that big a deal. what i don't like is introducing a certification process that requires all of the coaches to do a lot more work and keep up with paperwork and then something else for district hosts to have to deal with, and in the end not really impact the issue. if we can't come up with a process that we know will improve the safety for kids (like the program the hs uses) i am not for changing just for the sake of change.

Ranger123-With all due respect, JW is absolutely correct in the fact that as the system is set up right now with 2 different weights. One for the regular season and a second set of weights for the post season. The point of the matter is, as a coach, I bring paperwork with me to each and every tourney and duel match. Asking a kid to certify before Christmas is not going to be the paperwork crisis you think. As it is right now, it is required that each team send in their roster by Dec 15. How difficult is it for the coach to add a weight to that roster? Then, not only do you have the roster for each team, you have the weight for each kid as well. Therefore, once we get to the new year, using the list, there can be no issues about using the growth allowance for its intended purpose, allowing a wrestler to stay where he has been all year long and letting him grow into his body.

On the other hand, I know that it takes the mystery out of who will be where for Districts and such. But, with a system like this in place, the coaches in the state will be on notice not to play any games with weight as well as knowing what wrestlers can and cannot use the allowance. As I stated before, if a wrestler has a growth spurt during the season, he may move up as much as he needs to fit his growing and changing body. But most MS wrestlers don’t need to be moving down especially at the lower weights. Now, I know the next point someone will make is, that some coaches/kids like to move their boys up for duels and tourneys to “give them better competition” or to fit another kid in the lineup. But if a kid is at a lower weight before Christmas, weigh him in, get it on record and move forward by way of “bumping him up” as each coach sees fit.

Because of the school my kids are at, they get a physical every year to participate in sports. I have no issue with my kids Dr running a body-fat test to see what is safe to lose and what is not. If you have nothing to hide, put your cards on the table. Because if you don’t, you are only confirming what a lot of us are thinking and that is in fact coaches are encouraging MS kids to lose weight. Do I have a problem with this, yes I do when a kids health is put in jeopardy.

[BadMadDad 16]

But what prevents a kid from cutting an unhealthy amount of weight to "Certify"?

Not a thing other than the fact he has to make it before Christmas and again at Districts/Region/State. Odds are if he can make it before the holidays it will not be difficult for him to maintain it. If he did it the wrong way then he will suffer badly while doing it again. This is the chance to tell our wrestler that this is not the best weight for him to be wrestling.

Lets not forget the team aspect. Should a coach have to potentially give up a dual tournament so kid can make scratch?

Yes, what is more important a win at a duel or the long term health of your wrestler?

[tiltfor3 20]

snip-

Because of the school my kids are at, they get a physical every year to participate in sports. I have no issue with my kids Dr running a body-fat test to see what is safe to lose and what is not. If you have nothing to hide, put your cards on the table. Because if you don’t, you are only confirming what a lot of us are thinking and that is in fact coaches are encouraging MS kids to lose weight. Do I have a problem with this, yes I do when a kids health is put in jeopardy.

You are overlooking the club aspect of MS wrestling. Until there is an official governing body for schools, it is what is. If you wish to further divide clubs and schools, schools are going to lose and Kentucky wrestling is general will suffer. Look at little attention is paid to weights on the USA freestyle.greco circuit. Show up, weigh-in, and wrestle.

[Dixie Tino 3]

I think the Club aspect is a whole different issue. This is also something that gets abused throughout Middle School Wrestling in the State of Kentucky! The purpose of the "Club" team is to allow wrestlers that attend a School that does not have a wrestling program the opportunity to participate in the great sport of wrestling. Instead, kids that attend a School that has a wrestling program participate on a club team because of all kinds of reasons, few of which are good reasons. Middle School Wrestling has increased in size and competition greatly over the past few years. We need to put in place rules/guidelines for our future. We should try to eliminate "Clubs" altogether within the next few years. We should be working towards mirroring the High School rules/regulations. This is even more so when it comes to the Weight Cutting! It's crazy that at the HS level their are strict rules regarding weight loss but at the MS level there is NONE, other than make weight and we give 2 pounds for the post season. It should be as strict or more! I think it's extremely sad that many coaches/parents allow competitiveness to come before safety/health/sportsmanship! I do like ThunderStrucks idea of putting the "certified weight" on the rosters that get turned in by December 15th. That seems too simple.......

[Tim Reynolds 7]

Matside weighins will fix everything. If a kid is on the brink of being over then maybe he should move up for the next tournament? If he's cutting too much weight, it'll be obvious on the mat.

Isn't the important thing at this age developing strong technique and a love of the sport?

[tiltfor3 20]

I think the Club aspect is a whole different issue. This is also something that gets abused throughout Middle School Wrestling in the State of Kentucky! The purpose of the "Club" team is to allow wrestlers that attend a School that does not have a wrestling program the opportunity to participate in the great sport of wrestling. Instead, kids that attend a School that has a wrestling program participate on a club team because of all kinds of reasons, few of which are good reasons. Middle School Wrestling has increased in size and competition greatly over the past few years. We need to put in place rules/guidelines for our future. We should try to eliminate "Clubs" altogether within the next few years. We should be working towards mirroring the High School rules/regulations. This is even more so when it comes to the Weight Cutting! It's crazy that at the HS level their are strict rules regarding weight loss but at the MS level there is NONE, other than make weight and we give 2 pounds for the post season. It should be as strict or more! I think it's extremely sad that many coaches/parents allow competitiveness to come before safety/health/sportsmanship! I do like ThunderStrucks idea of putting the "certified weight" on the rosters that get turned in by December 15th. That seems too simple.......

What started off as a safety concern thread and has degenerated into bashing youth club programs. Let me just say that schools need clubs more than clubs need school programs. I do not think weight cutting is a big deal.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

Eliminating clubs?????????? Is this guy serious????? Talk about killing a sport people have fought hard to grow. Dont know what small town you are from that probably has one middle and high school all togethor but here in Louisville where we have more than 30 middle schools and more than 30 high schools, your idea just doesnt work. JCPS would never allow the funding it would take to put teams in place in all these schools and some kids who might be great wrestlers may have little to no support at all within that school. Every child I know of who goes to a school that has a program but chooses to go to a club has done it for legitimate reasons such as having someone in his weight class to work out with.

[Ranger123 43]

You must be misinterpreting my response. I am totally fine with making changes to more strictly monitor weight loss. What I am not in favor of is creating a paperwork nightmare or some "fake" certification just to make everyone feel good about themselves. I can only speak for my kids and my team. Body fat test, certification, X number of weigh ins at such and such weight, high school descent plans, whatever. Would NOT have changed our district lineup a bit. In fact, I've had more questions posed to me by parents about why I didn't have a kid drop weight than every before. Because that is the culture I want to have in our program. Is that the case for every kid and team around the state? Probably not.

To say adding the weight class to the roster is no big deal is naive. You were obviously not aware of the issues with simply creating rosters in trackwrestling this season. Coaches and programs across the state whined and cried and fought it up to the last minute. Some had legitimate issues. Others just didn't want to do the work, if you want to call it that. But let's say we have coaches add the "weight certification" to track wrestling. Who is going to verify that those certifications are accurate? If we don't validate them then it is a collosal waste of time.

And thunderstruck, the mystery of district weights is not a reason to create some fancy weight rule. Knowing where kids will be competing at can be nice to know, but is not a necessity at all. Wrestle the kid in the bracket whether he wrestled there all year or not. He made the weight, live with it.

[dagger 7]

Its the same for all teams, anyone can use the 2 pounds to drop a weight class if they want to. That being said I wouldn't care if they did away with the 2 pounds and wrestled the weight classes the same all year. If you want a change tell your coach to get to the state meeting this spring and bring it up for a vote. Just talking about it won't change anything.

[bigedcoach 27]

As a guy who has coached Middle and High School Wrestling, Having certified referees and an opposing coach to sign weigh in sheets at meets and 1 form turned in with the date of certification and a copy of that weigh in sheet attached to that roster and turned in to the district seed meeting is not a paperwork nightmare. Making scratch before Jan 1 then 2lbs after is an easy policy to enforce with little paperwork. I really believe that you need to go to the 50% rule in MS since there is no fat testing or decent plan

[J.W. 21]

Bigedcoach: Sir you are correct. Can't be a paperwork nightmare when it is already being done. We already weigh in with an official. The official is already writing weights down. The tournament director is already making copies for each coach at the tournament. So what, he has to make 1 copy for the league / or representative that would compile the weighins. He could either mail it (costing a whopping $2.00) or give it to the league prior to 01 January at any tournament (free). All of these weigh-ins could be compiled on one spreadsheet, sorted and determined who is eligible for the 2 lb allowance or certain weight class. If the issue is having someone compile the weights all year - I will do it and it looks like there are more volunteers that would to see this through.

[BadMadDad 16]

I asked my son’s last night if they had to make the decision about rules for MS wrestling this year, how would they do it. After all, they are the ones competing, not me. My oldest said that they should have to certify in December before being allowed the extra weight allowance. My younger boy said we should drop the extra weight allowance period. Both boys made weight all year long and when they were asked to bump up a weight, did so with no questions asked.

After talking to them and hearing their thoughts on the issue, it is hard to blame them. Both boys worked their tails off all year and did have to watch what they ate, but none of them had to cut a single pound. Since this is MS wrestling, our rules should be even more strict than the HS as MS is when you see the biggest growth spurts. Not one time did ether of them complain when kids dropped down to their weight class. They knew, if you want to beat the best, you better put in your time in the practice room.

When the track wrestling program was put in place, out team did what was asked of them by way of entering in our matches and records. I believe that if we are asked to do thing as coaches, than they need to be done. I do know that a ton of work behind the scenes has to go on to make everything work right. But, just like my paying job, if things need to be done you have to get it done. No excuses!!!!

[Ranger123 43]

All I can say is you guys obviously did not hear a fraction of the crap I did on trackwrestling. The board spent hours on the phone and working emails to get this done. That doesn't even take into account the issues with getting league USA cards. And believe me (or check with Keith Smith), there are issues here as well. I'm not saying it is a nightmare for me personally, but many around the state would say it is. And I personally do not believe this will do much to impact weight cutting.

JW - it is being done at the high school level where coaches and programs are much more structured, have more help, and managed by administrations. While we all expect that to happen everywhere even at the middle school level, the reality is that many programs are not run at the same efficiency level. There may only be one coach involved who is not a teacher and tries to juggle everything. The job should get done, but the bottm line is that it doesn't.

As far as what the kids want, my son may love candy bars and ice cream, but that doesn't mean it is the best thing in the world for him and everyone else. Kids generally only consider what is affecting them and maybe a couple of their buddies in the last week. Again, I'm for making smart, logical change for the better, not change for the sake of change.