Discussion: Fargo & State

[dinubus 2]

If more of you all would have went to Fargo, you would laugh at the pressure of state!  It is a great trip and a shame that only 3 wrestlers from Kentucky were able to man up and go and only two of which went Junior.

[big77 0]

:roll: 

[grappler-of-old 44]

If more of you all would have went to Fargo, you would laugh at the pressure of state! 

Wow the more I hear statements like these the more irritated I get.

1.  No matter if you went to Fargo or not there would still be more pressure at state than Fargo.  Being a state champion is the ultimate goal of high school wrestlers. 

2.  How is it pressure going to a summer tourney that means nothing.  (Before you ask no I have never been to Fargo)  As a wrestler I went to many many large tourneys, but never felt any pressure from summer tourneys.  That includes the Jr. Olympic Tourney and the AAU nationals. (The state tourney was still more exciting because that was the most important Tourney).

It is a great trip and a shame that only 3 wrestlers from Kentucky were able to man up and go and only two of which went Junior.

1.  With trips like this it is NOT the wrestler's decision to go to these tourneys.  It is the decision of the parents.  They must schedule vacations around these tourneys and come up with the money for entry fee's, food and travel costs. 

2.  It's would not be real hard to "man up" and go to one of these tourneys and go 2 and out.  All but our (KY) top tier wrestlers would do just this. 

As a side note.

Those parents who have taken the time and money to send their wrestlers to these tourneys I applaud you.  you and your family have made great sacrifices to your wrestling child or children. I also applaud any non wrestling siblings of these wrestlers who have also sacrificed for their wrestling brother.

[dinubus 2]

Om, yeah, check out the charts!  What tournament did you ever go to that had 76 wrestlers in your weight class on your chart?  Fahy's chart for Cadet Nationals out at Fargo has that many kids on it.  When I went to Junior Nationals back in 94, I had 156 kids on my bracket (132 lbs).  I'm sure the 135 lbs bracket will be similar this year.  So, please don't even talk when you have never been!

[dinubus 2]

Oh, and by the way, any high school kid that places a higher importance on a state championship than being an ALL AMERICAN, must be in special needs classes.  Not to mention that a KY state champion will get picked over by any D1 school when compared to any and all All Americans!

I am a state champion and I would would give that moment away 10 out of 10 times to be at the top of the podium at the Junior division at Fargo!

[Ranger123 43]

I think that a lot depends on the kid.  Many kids have no intention of wrestling beyond high school.  So to them their goals are typically set on the state level and helping their teammates and friends.  Not that they wouldn't love to be and all american, but that is not where their priority is set.  I'm not sure how that makes them a special needs student, but dinubus is the genius around here.  And I'm not sure why numbers are all that important or add that much pressure to the event.  Fargo is a big deal because it is Fargo, a nationally recognized major event.  If half of the kids didn't show up (the weaker half) it would still be a big deal because of the competition that shows up year in and year out.

[Mr Granby 0]

Wow the more I hear statements like these the more irritated I get.

1.  No matter if you went to Fargo or not there would still be more pressure at state than Fargo.  Being a state champion is the ultimate goal of high school wrestlers. 

2.  How is it pressure going to a summer tourney that means nothing.  (Before you ask no I have never been to Fargo)  As a wrestler I went to many many large tourneys, but never felt any pressure from summer tourneys.  That includes the Jr. Olympic Tourney and the AAU nationals. (The state tourney was still more exciting because that was the most important Tourney).

1.  With trips like this it is NOT the wrestler's decision to go to these tourneys.  It is the decision of the parents.  They must schedule vacations around these tourneys and come up with the money for entry fee's, food and travel costs. 

2.  It's would not be real hard to "man up" and go to one of these tourneys and go 2 and out.  All but our (KY) top tier wrestlers would do just this. 

As a side note.

Those parents who have taken the time and money to send their wrestlers to these tourneys I applaud you.  you and your family have made great sacrifices to your wrestling child or children. I also applaud any non wrestling siblings of these wrestlers who have also sacrificed for their wrestling brother.

Wow you must be crazy, let me see do i want to win a state championship? Or do i want to be an All American?  thats a no brainer.  I had the opportunity to go to fargo and let me tell you it was easily the best wrestling experience of my life and i won a state championship. 

[Ranger123 43]

I don't think goo was trying to say that anyone would simply pick the state championship over being an all american, but how many really have the shot at being an AA.  Add that to the cost and support issues.  Not to mention Fargo is a completely different story.  We're not talking about folkstyle, that is greco and freestyle.  Many of our best kids have little to no exposure to those styles of wrestling.

[dinubus 2]

Aww, you are just upset because he sided with me making your sad attempt to talk down what I have said worthless.  So sorry there Ranger!  Oh, and if that is all your head coaches team desires, that is fine, but to better the sport in Kentucky, we probably should start trying to set their sights higher.

[FalconWrestling 147]

I cant see how Robbie Sahms could beat Patrick Bunch (6th at 145) and be ranked so low at 140

As suprised as I am by his massive gain in weight, It has at least all been muscle. Robbie and I, we are skin and bones with some muscle thrown for weight

[Mr Granby 0]

I don't think goo was trying to say that anyone would simply pick the state championship over being an all american, but how many really have the shot at being an AA.  Add that to the cost and support issues.  Not to mention Fargo is a completely different story.  We're not talking about folkstyle, that is greco and freestyle.  Many of our best kids have little to no exposure to those styles of wrestling.

I'm not saying every kid in KY should go, however there are some kids that could benefit greatly from the experience.  Fargo will really open a kids eyes and make them want to work that much harder.  you cant let money issues stand in the way of that, i was one of the poorest kids in school.  yet through frank gercak i got to go for very little money.  there are people and there are ways out there, for kids to experience this phenomenal event. Thats my two cents anyway.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Ahh as usual you missed my point totally. 

What I was trying to point out was that you were downgrading Ky wrestlers. 

During my career as a wrestler my parents offered to forfeit our vacation so that I could go to some national tournaments.  I choose not to because it was not fair to my sisters.  Why should they suffer through a huge wrestling tourney instead of vacationing on a beach or somewhere.

As Ranger pointed out many wrestlers have no aspirations past high school.  Many plan to graduate go to college and make something of themselves.  This is the route i choose.  I had opportunities to wrestle in collage but choose not to because my education was much more important. 

Everyone makes what they want out of wrestling and any sport they play.  Don't down grade them because they or their family does not live and die wrestling. 

As for my own.  If Jr. wants to go to one of these tourneys we will see if it fits into our budget, and we would have to see how it affects his sister also.  We neither can afford nor want to favor one child over the other.

[dinubus 2]

I had opportunities to wrestle in collage but choose not to because my education was much more important. 

As was stated earlier, it doesn't have to be too expensive if you look for sponsorship.  That can be on the kid.  9 times out of 10 local businesses will say yes to sponsoring an athlete trying to attend a National event!  Oh, and why can the sister and family still take their vacation?  They can be on the beach while you wrestle.  When I went, my family couldn't afford to be there with me.  So, it doesn't take anything away from any other member of the family, thus this is all a cop-out. 

Where you are right, though, is that too many KY wrestlers do not look to wrestle after HS.  This is why KY is having a hard time growing in the sport.  If you desire for the sport to grow in the state of KY, for colleges to pick it up  in the state of KY, then you must help our kids to realize they are good enough to compete in college.  This tournament is not only good for exposure and helping our kids get past the mental aspect, but it is also good for in state colleges to realize, hey - if we pick up wrestling as a sport, we might be able to compete!

[Mr Granby 0]

Ahh as usual you missed my point totally. 

What I was trying to point out was that you were downgrading Ky wrestlers. 

During my career as a wrestler my parents offered to forfeit our vacation so that I could go to some national tournaments.  I choose not to because it was not fair to my sisters.  Why should they suffer through a huge wrestling tourney instead of vacationing on a beach or somewhere.

As Ranger pointed out many wrestlers have no aspirations past high school.  Many plan to graduate go to college and make something of themselves.  This is the route i choose.  I had opportunities to wrestle in collage but choose not to because my education was much more important. 

Everyone makes what they want out of wrestling and any sport they play.  Don't down grade them because they or their family does not live and die wrestling. 

As for my own.  If Jr. wants to go to one of these tourneys we will see if it fits into our budget, and we would have to see how it affects his sister also.  We neither can afford nor want to favor one child over the other.

I'm sorry but i don't see your point at all, i don't mean to be rude to anyone, But i honestly don't know how you justify your response.  What do you mean by downgrading KY wrestlers?  There are more kids in KY that SHOULD have went, they have the ability to make noise, and i know some of them would love to wrestle in college.  Another point, if more kids go the cheaper it is on all of them.  Take Ohio for instance, they get a total package warm ups, singlets, shirts etc.  Because they have so many kids going, not positive on the price but i heard it wasn't as much as i spent which wasn't much.  the point i am trying to make to you is that, there isn't one person on this site who doesn't want to see KY wrestling succeed, things like Fargo, and NHSCA nationals and are the way to do it.  Once again not every kid in the state can or wants to do this but more SHOULD.  So i dont see how that is downgrading KY wrestlers, it should motivate them and make them open their eyes to more opportunities that are laid in front of them.

[TheGuru 0]

Oh, and by the way, any high school kid that places a higher importance on a state championship than being an ALL AMERICAN, must be in special needs classes.  Not to mention that a KY state champion will get picked over by any D1 school when compared to any and all All Americans!

I am a state champion and I would would give that moment away 10 out of 10 times to be at the top of the podium at the Junior division at Fargo!

You're the special one dinubus.  Most people would not trade away that state title moment for anything.  I agree with you that colleges will look at that AA status over being a Ky state champ any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  But how many high school kids would skip the state tournament their senior year to go wrestle at Fargo?  I'd say very, very few.  You'd probably be looking at 8 man brackets if every kid that went to Fargo had to do this.  Is it the best possible move a kid could make "career" wise, probably not.  But not many kids would skip state to go to Fargo. 

[Mr Granby 0]

You're the special one dinubus.  Most people would not trade away that state title moment for anything.  I agree with you that colleges will look at that AA status over being a Ky state champ any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  But how many high school kids would skip the state tournament their senior year to go wrestle at Fargo?  I'd say very, very few.  You'd probably be looking at 8 man brackets if every kid that went to Fargo had to do this.  Is it the best possible move a kid could make "career" wise, probably not.  But not many kids would skip state to go to Fargo. 

Yeah because kids would rather be a state champion than an all american, highly doubtful.  You can sell that line to someone else buddy, because im not buying it.

[TheGuru 0]

Yeah because kids would rather be a state champion than an all american, highly doubtful.  You can sell that line to someone else buddy, because im not buying it.

Not at all buddy.  Let me see if I can get you to buy this.  Do you think many kids, if given the choice, between wrestling in their state tournament their senior year or Fargo would go to Fargo?  I'd say the vast majority of kids are high school athletes before they aspire to be all americans.  USAW & AAU would never be able to compete with high school wrestling.  MOST kids, not all, but most kids are more into high school wrestling than freestyle & greco.  You'll have kids that say they like FS/GR more, but if they had to choose between that and high school wrestling, I'd say most kids would choose high school wrestling.

Ok, if we can agree on that, then I say kids would rather wrestle in their high school state tournament than take a chance on being a freestyle all american.  Therefore, I think the state tournament means more to most kids than does Fargo.  I seen a Ken Chertow video one time where he explicitly says that winning a high school state title was the most "satisfying" experience of his high school career.  I believe he was a 2X Fargo champion and an OW to boot.  Yet, he stated that his most satisfying experience in high school wrestling was winning state. 

[Mr Granby 0]

Not at all buddy.  Let me see if I can get you to buy this.  Do you think many kids, if given the choice, between wrestling in their state tournament their senior year or Fargo would go to Fargo?  I'd say the vast majority of kids are high school athletes before they aspire to be all americans.  USAW & AAU would never be able to compete with high school wrestling.  MOST kids, not all, but most kids are more into high school wrestling than freestyle & greco.  You'll have kids that say they like FS/GR more, but if they had to choose between that and high school wrestling, I'd say most kids would choose high school wrestling.

Ok, if we can agree on that, then I say kids would rather wrestle in their high school state tournament than take a chance on being a freestyle all american.  Therefore, I think the state tournament means more to most kids than does Fargo.  I seen a Ken Chertow video one time where he explicitly says that winning a high school state title was the most "satisfying" experience of his high school career.  I believe he was a 2X Fargo champion and an OW to boot.  Yet, he stated that his most satisfying experience in high school wrestling was winning state. 

Ok call me crazy but the last i checked being an AA was a higher feat than being a state champion.  Thats the end of it period, and fargo has always followed every state championship in the US so kids dont have to choose between the two.  And if you REALLY want to get picky greco was the first form of wrestling, it just so happened to get molded into what we have today (which is great) yet it wouldnt hurt kids to practice and compete what made what we have today.  So maybe i am crazy, but i know for a fact many people think the way i do.  But this really isnt worth arguing over. The point i wanted to get across was that more KY wrestlers should go to tournaments of this caliber to really see what the best is.  Trust me they would leave fargo dome with a totally different aspect of the sport and have a great time.

[dinubus 2]

Not at all buddy.  Let me see if I can get you to buy this.  Do you think many kids, if given the choice, between wrestling in their state tournament their senior year or Fargo would go to Fargo?  I'd say the vast majority of kids are high school athletes before they aspire to be all americans.  USAW & AAU would never be able to compete with high school wrestling.  MOST kids, not all, but most kids are more into high school wrestling than freestyle & greco.  You'll have kids that say they like FS/GR more, but if they had to choose between that and high school wrestling, I'd say most kids would choose high school wrestling.

Ok, if we can agree on that, then I say kids would rather wrestle in their high school state tournament than take a chance on being a freestyle all american.  Therefore, I think the state tournament means more to most kids than does Fargo.  I seen a Ken Chertow video one time where he explicitly says that winning a high school state title was the most "satisfying" experience of his high school career.  I believe he was a 2X Fargo champion and an OW to boot.  Yet, he stated that his most satisfying experience in high school wrestling was winning state. 

1.  There are many, many, many, many, many more USA/AAU wrestlers than there are High School wrestlers.  Many wrestlers start off with USA when they are 4 y/o or there about.

2.  If you look at Europe, you can see FILA wrestling continued and there is no such thing as HS wrestling.

So, sorry, you are wrong again - GURU

[PackAttack 0]

I thought this was a thread about high school rankings for next year...Interesting discussion you all are having, but not necessarily pertinent to the thread.

[grappler-of-old 44]

1.  There are many, many, many, many, many more USA/AAU wrestlers than there are High School wrestlers.  Many wrestlers start off with USA when they are 4 y/o or there about.

2.  If you look at Europe, you can see FILA wrestling continued and there is no such thing as HS wrestling.

So, sorry, you are wrong again - GURU

Anyone can take statistics and make it fit their argument.

Using your stats. Of the kids who attend high school in the United States. I would guess that more wrestle high school than USA/AAU. With that said, it proves nothing.

I would say this however.  If a kid tells his buddies that he is an All American.  I would bet that his buddies would say "Cool what school did you wrestle for?"  and eventually ask him is he was a state champion. 

This is why (Going back to my original argument) I believe that a kid would feel more pressure at the state tourney than at Fargo or any other big tourney like this.

The number of kids in your bracket is not what is intimidating, its what winning the tournament means. 

I bet if a wrestler won the Beast of the East but did not win his state title, he would feel disappointed with his season, whereas if he lost in the Beast of the East but won his state title he would not be disappointed with his season.

[dinubus 2]

Anyone can take statistics and make it fit their argument.

Using your stats. Of the kids who attend high school in the United States. I would guess that more wrestle high school than USA/AAU. With that said, it proves nothing.

 

What?????????  Again, many more wrestlers compete in USA/AAU prior to ever getting involved in HS wrestling, some never even do get involved in HS wrestling, and most HS wrestlers that want to be decent who had already competed in USA/AAU gets involved in it.  Looking at the numbers, there are soooooooooo many more USA/AAU wrestlers than HS wrestlers.  Then take in to the understanding other countries wrestlers, and the fact that our folkstyle wrestlers are now getting smoked at the Olympics by countries much smaller than ours, shows that FILA (or USA/AAU style wrestling) produces the better competitor.

I would say this however.  If a kid tells his buddies that he is an All American.  I would bet that his buddies would say "Cool what school did you wrestle for?"  and eventually ask him is he was a state champion. 

This is why (Going back to my original argument) I believe that a kid would feel more pressure at the state tourney than at Fargo or any other big tourney like this.

The number of kids in your bracket is not what is intimidating, its what winning the tournament means. 

I bet if a wrestler won the Beast of the East but did not win his state title, he would feel disappointed with his season, whereas if he lost in the Beast of the East but won his state title he would not be disappointed with his season.

Bad argument.  That same All American would get many scolarship offers (most of which would be full rides).  How many KY State champions get that?  Hmmm. 

Oh, and, the number on the bracket is the initial intimidation, then name recognition, then the full wear and tear of trying to just work through such a huge bracket while wrestling such high calaber competition that you will never see in any one state or state tournament.  So, again, your argument is weak.  Sorry, not trying to cut you down.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Here is my last question.

Which is more true?

High school wrestlers wrestle AAU/USA to become better high school wrestlers.

or

AAU/USA wrestlers wrestle high school to become better AAU/USA wrestlers.

Once again most high schoolers are not looking for scholarships.  They just want to wrestle. 

I like many other wrestlers didn't care how I would match up in Freestyle or Greco Roman style wrestling.  I did it because it was kind of fun and made me a better high school wrestler.  As we have seen by many many posts.  High school wrestlers don't take summer wrestling seriously.  They don't train as hard nor work as hard on the mat as they do when high school wrestling is going on.

I'm not saying those that go to these tourneys are crazy or anything.  I just don't believe that those who do not go should be criticized for not going. 

My Jr. doesn't just wrestle he plays football, baseball, track and golf.  Will he be the greatest at any of these?  Probably not, but he is having a great time being a kid.  He will earn his diploma, hopefully earn a scholarship for education (which is much easier than a sports scholarship), go to collage, raise a family and have kids who will be involved in sports much like himself.

parents and coaches get to involved in the "ONE SPORT WONDER".  This hurts high school sports.  Wresting is one that is being hurt the most because of this.  Football, track, and baseball players don't wrestle because they want to be one sport wonders in their preferred sport. 

Either way you feel about this.  This post has opened the eyes of many and they can make their own choice. 

The GOO over and out.

Live long and prosper.  :-D :mrgreen:

[dinubus 2]

Actually, some of the best athletes compete in more than one sport.  While coaching, I always pushed my wrestlers to compete in more than just wrestling.  I felt that football and soccer were good sports that complement with wrestling and that cross-country was great to improve endurance in wrestling.  I also encouraged them to either go out for track and field or compete in freestyle/greco.  Many multi-sport athletes achieve and obtain scholarships (again, not a good argument on your part).  Finally, I was a "ONE SPORT WONDER" as you put it and I loved every minute of it!  I couldn't have asked for a better childhood!

Finally, you spelled college as "collage" for the second time.  I misspell words all the time, but they typically are not the same exact word every time, so I figured I would help you out here.

[big77 0]

 sorry I think a combo of both would be beneficial to the athlete, because you are forgetting one BIG  thing, winning a State Title is good for the Athlete, for all  his hard work, and sacrifice, to be honored with a title in front of HIS home town and His Home STATE peers, which is important, and out of state competition to rank himself or herself , so you need both, which can be achieved WITHOUT bashing one or the other, sure there is  quality competition in the USA/AAU but there is also great competition in  KY we have to step up and keep people from saying these negative things and remember some future  State Champ, and All American is being born right now and will be walking the halls of a SCHOOL and with a quality run program at the SCHOOL it could lead to bigger and better things like watching on ESPN a FORMER KY STATE CHAMP AND ALL AMERICAN wrestling for a NCAA championship, and that is what we all want for our wrestlers and for Ky